September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Dacquoise, I agree with everyone else, no point trying to set them straight as they've not changed , they still see you as beneath them. They are pretending to be on your side but they arent, I think that they are breaking away from your mother in order to establish their own family group where they can be the poisonous spiders at the centre of the web
I think actually what they are doing is deposing your mother, they want to take her place and establish themselves as the toxic king and queen

Pearsapiece

That's that thing with narcissists, you give them an inch and they will try and take a mile. They will NEVER respect any boundary you care to set them and will actively ignore and or ride roughshod over it.

Call off this visit; no good will come of visiting your parents and you will come off far worse from such an encounter and worst still all this will kick off in your own home. Cite sudden illness as an excuse, tell them you're isolating for the foreseeable.

Dacquoise

Continue to ignore them; they were never interested in hearing your side of things and these people have not changed. I would also think they are trying to hoover you back in to their dysfunctional world and lives.

Any response from you albeit a brief one word one, is still a response and that to such disordered of thinking people is the reward.

@Pearsapiece the movie watching thing Come on, what is that about? So irritating. I get it too despite my polite and consistent reminders of "if only" and "looking after a 1 yr means I only get to watch Peppa pig nowadays"

Thank you everyone. It means a lot to me to be able to get support from people who totally understand. I also had a session with my therapist tonight and he said exactly what you advised that any contact, even to tell them to fuck off, opens up an unwanted dialogue. He has suggested a strategy if they doorstop to deal with them without giving them anything in return. Not going anywhere near them. Interesting that lots of threads on here about unwanted contact. Nots of narcos must be feeling very lonely at Christmas!

Lots of narcs! Bloody auto correct!

Hi all
Id like to join ye all. Unfortunately i have quite a few toxic family members, and im finally at a place in my life where i want to deal with it.

My dm is a narcissist and i unfortunately was her scapegoat, i suffered emotional and verbal abuse and neglect, i would say from the moment i was born. She used to take her awful anger out on me daily, i spent my entire life walking on eggshells, i still do now even though i have no reason too. She has a golden child my sister, who i believe is another narcissist, my brother is the flying monkey.

Now at the age of 41, i have decided to go no contact, (it was low) but it was still so damaging. My mother now has dementia, and has in her fuddled mind, decided she likes me, but i suspect that might actually to do with the fact she'd like me to care for her. Id rather stick pins in my eyes than care for her.

As a result of my upbringing i managed to pick an abusive alcoholic to be the father of my children with his totally messed up family and absolute toxic mother. I am no longer with him, i finally through him out 7 years ago, also til lately i still had some co dependancy issues with him.

I saw a therapist at the time who was fantastic, and made me realise i had no boundaries (i didnt even know what they were, or whether i was allowed to have them). I am left with a legacy of c-ptsd, anxiety and awful social anxiety. But i determined to overcome these things.
Yesterday i started reading the Peter Walker book on c-ptsd, i find it diificult to open up old memories and wounds, but i know i need to in order to heal.
My therapist suggested journaling every day, getting these memories and thoughts down on paper and out of my head. I know it will help, but i have yet to start.

Im looking forward to finish reading the thread and getting to know ye all. Apologies for the essay

Hello and welcome @Cailindeas35👋😊
but i suspect that might actually to do with the fact she'd like me to care for her. Id rather stick pins in my eyes than care for her
I concur.... She likes you because she perceives that you are now useful to her!
It can take a long time to properly understand and process these things but you sound very insightful

So I think my brother turned up at my house today. Car drew up, window down and someone waving at me and gesturing to come in. I had popped home to do a covid test for national statistics, was talking to my next door neighbour on my doorstep, interrupted call on my mobile waiting and thought it was the person collecting the tests. I looked at him completely blankly and eventually he went away. Completely surreal. Need to action my therapist's advice and prepare a 'letter' to hand to him if he knocks on the door. Letter to say I don't want any further relationship with him and not to contact me again (that's all). Tell him I am busy and hand him the letter if he knocks, close the door.

Dacquoise, that sounds extremely unnerving:(
well done for not blinking
how are you feeling?
I dont know if this might help but can you mentally rehearse the steps for if this happens again, eg by imagining yourself back in that surreal situation but this time you have the letter and you hand it over etc

Hi @Free3mee3, I was a bit freaked out to be honest because my therapist thought it unlikely that they would turn up. It's actually quite fortunate that I was confused who was in the car because I was expecting the person collecting the covid tests. I didn't have time feel nervous or anxious. However, I now feel anxious about 'next ' time. I am rehearsing what I will do and say. I want and need to be control. I will let everyone know if it happens, could be useful for someone else in this situation.

Dacquoise, You handled it perfectly and that will have unnerved them, they have lost the element of surprise so it's not such a useful tool to them now.
Turning up is an escalation but also a risk for them b/c it constitutes harassment (Keep a careful record)
Even though you feel anxious and rattled what they saw was someone unflustered and cool.
Sorry you're having to deal with this, it's despicable:(

Are you 100% sure it was him? There are all sorts of lost delivery drivers around our way at the moment.

If it was him and he drove off after you looked at him blankly - then why would he come back? Would he just not have parked up and got out?

If it was him then your response was perfect and if he (or SIL) come back again. Just be ready - visualise or walk through what you need to do if they knock at the door or intercept on your driveway etc.

That must be unsettling - I hope that you can feel you did well and if they come back you have your plans ready.

It was an ambush Dacquoise, you cant be ambushed again because you'll be ready, but that in itself is stressful.
There will be others on here who've deal with this kind of thing and will have some tips.
I totally get why you feel rattled, I hope you can calm yourself

I am pretty certain it was him. I was expecting the test person and caught between my conversation with my neighbour and someone on my phone so was very distracted. I was thinking why doesn't he just park and get out (the test man) but he turned at the end of the road and disappeared. Then the penny dropped. Coming so soon after the special Christmas card too.

It doesn't surprise me that my brother didn't stop and get out. He is basically a coward. His texts were incredibly clumsy, as if nothing had happened I predict another email or even a visit by SIL who has an enormous ego and thick skin. I will be prepared and have warned my partner and daughter too.

We are now on high alert every time the bell on the door goes which is unacceptable. I really hate these two for that.

@notmetoday I totally hear where you’re coming from. Christmas brings its own special brand of dysfunction and abuse. FOG is awful. Even when we decide we’re done with it and with them, it’s so hard because we have been so deeply conditioned.

@yellowlemon You are not alone - it was the parcel from my sister that totally did me in this year. I was so angry and upset at the mere sight of her writing. Like, what the fuck??? You treat me like that then send a Christmas parcel? It does your head in, doesn’t it?

@PollyDangerCrackers It is totally mad that we worry so badly about upsetting the people who have hurt us most. And yes - we are adult women with adult kids - and maybe that’s how we are able to see just how massively fucked up our family-of-origin are.

@Daquoise Definitely ignore. I had to come on here a week ago with the same blind panic and upset that you describe ”They don't seem to have got the hint that I don't want to know and obviously have no idea how much they hurt me with their behaviour.”

IN OTHER NEWS... I have finally moved house. None of my family-of-origin have my new address. The last thing to go in the postbox on moving day was the card to my mother saying I wouldn't be sharing my address with anyone, and that I was sure she would understand why.

I heard today from one of my adult kids that their narc son got in touch and was asking questions about where we have moved to. My kids know exactly what my FOO is like, and nobody will be saying a word.

Edit: this has turned into a massive post. Sorry!

I've been a long-time lurker on here. Reading all your posts and getting some really good advice for dealing with my narc mother, but feeling like an imposter because my experience has been no-where near as bad as the horrendous physical abuse some of you have been through.

I'm so sorry to all of you who have been/going through so much shit.

I'm hoping for a bit of advice to pass on to my DH. He has been an absolute trouper since last Boxing Day when I finally lost my shit with my mother. I've had years of criticisms, guilt-trips, being talked-over, put-downs (to my face, but then bigged up to her friends if it makes her look good), having all credit taken away from me, you get the gist. All little digs that on their own seem pretty insignificant, and make me look like a dick if I say anything, but add up to years of misery, feeling and looking drained after every encounter, and panic attacks at the thought of seeing her. My DH calls it death by paper cut. My childhood wasn't too bad (apart from being screamed at and smacked, even when I'd be crying in bed because I was worried she'd die from smoking.) It seemed to get worse as I grew up and became more independent. I realise that now from all the insightful comments on here. I never had any privacy...she would stand and watch me getting dressed. Commenting on what I was wearing, criticising my choices, or lack of make-up, and would always come into the bathroom (especially when I was going through puberty) when I was in the bath or shower saying she was desperate for the loo (we had a downstairs loo, but she'd make the trip upstairs). She'd sit and look me up and down, I'd cover myself up with a flannel or turn my back in the shower. Very unnerving. She'd even pull my knickers out at the front to see if I had "any feathers down there" as she would put it. WTF was that all about? I can't remember how old I was, I'm guessing about 12, when she was kissing me goodnight, she used to say "give me a kiss, like I'm your boyfriend". Always in a jokey voice, but that's not right is it? (I didn't BTW).

Then she just seemed to gradually ramp it up as I got older and more independent. I lived at home until I was nearly 30 as couldn't afford to move out. But after graduating at 29 ( with a first and the highest score in the whole year...her first response was "huh, I didn't think you'd finish it") I finally moved out. She hated it, and that's when she became even more controlling, constant phone calls (wanting long chats when I was at work, getting "hurt" and nasty when I said I couldn't talk, you know the stuff).

She spent years telling me how I'd be "left on the shelf" but then couldn't bear it when my now DH did the honorable thing and asked to marry me. Her response "well, you know she's been engaged before?". (My dad died suddenly 10 years ago...she was an absolute bitch to him to, but has played the grieving widow ever since. But that's a different story).

Anyhow, I thought things would get better once we had kids. But no, she now has an extra reason to pick fault, and she tries it on my DD (7) too. We only have one DD, and she was a terrible sleeper for about 6 months. I literally had 3 hours of sleep in 30 min blocks for 6 months. Got no support from my mother, all I got was how much harder she had it, and how she did so much more and still coped. She even deliberately woke me up one day when I went for a nap, despite my DH repeatedly telling her not to. She stood at my bedroom door, clearing her throat until I woke up (I'd just nodded off) to "check I was ok". And then got hurt when I told her to go away.

Oh, and she couldn't bear to think that we might have a second child. (She apparently had 4 miscarriages after having me ( I'm an only child). She even once said that I "took it all out of her"). For 4 years after our DD was born, every time I saw her she'd say "I hope you're not trying for another one, not at YOUR age. You can't cope with the one you've got". I could. I also had a miscarriage when DD was 2 but obviously didn't tell my mother.

Anyway, I've massively digressed (it's just good to get a tiny bit of it off my chest). There's SO much more, but what I came here for us this: 10 years ago I tried to tell her, over the phone, how her treatment of me made me feel. She first denied it, then said she couldn't remember, then that she wasn't going to change at her age. That should have been a massive red flag. She improved though, for about a month, then just ramped it up. Then I threw her out of my house about 5 years ago after she shouted "shut-up" to our DD who was 2 at the time. I'd had an argument with my mother in the supermarket, and my DD dared to turn round and all she said was "nanny?". Last Boxing day after another excruciating and tense Christmas Day at hers, I finally lost it after I dared to correct her about something (another put-down) and she told me to fuck off. I regret immensely that my DD had to witness me screaming and crying, but I couldn't hold it in. My mother, if course, did the whole "why are you being nasty to me?" and "I wish I'd died and not your father" routine. I also made the mistake (I think) of calling her a narcissist. She shouted "what? I don't even know what that means". You have never seen 3 people leave the house so quickly. So since then I've completely cut her out of my life. Blocking calls, tore up a letter I received from her, bday card in the bin. DH has kept in contact for our DDs sake, and has seen her a few times outside during covid. My daughter seems to understand exactly how my mother makes me feel, and we've explained about guilt-trips etc. DH is also acutely aware of mother's tactics and doesn't leave DD alone with her.

This Christmas he is taking DD to see my mother on Boxing Day just for a few hours. I'd rather he wasn't, but my DD wants to see her. But despite my telephone call 10 years ago, and her looking up "narcissist" on the internet, she still doesn't know what she's done wrong. She even said to my DH "that's awful, I don't do that!". So I know she'll never accept it, but my DH is getting it in the ear and has asked me to write a few points down to give her. I've said it will all sound petty, and won't make a difference. But I still feel like I owe her some sort of explanation, and feel guilty that my DH is now having to deal with it. What do I do?

Hi all
I have a dilemma with xmas, i have one nephew, who is my sisters child. I am no contact with her, and very happy to be. I was going to send my nephew a xmas card and voucher, but im now debating whether i actually should.

The background with my sister is, she is the golden child and i was indoctrinated to believe she is the most amazing human to have ever graced the earth. To be honest i was always sacred of upsetting her, because of her own wrath but also my mothers. So i spent my early years trying to please.
At the age of 35 i was diagnosed with breast cancer, and as a single parent i desperately needed support and help, needless to say i got very little of that. My sister took paid compassionate leave from her job, convienently i managed to get cancer in the summer. She promised to help, but didnt. She minded my children for 1 of my 16 chemos, i could go on. There is much more but id be here all day.

It was only then, and with the insight of my partner i realised i was being treated appalling and that i didnt deserve it. She is ruthless, self serving, manipulative and just not a nice person.
But my nephew is a child, and i dont want to take it out on him, but most important of all i want to protect myself and my own children.

What do ye think should i send or not?

@CantTrampoline
I dont think writing a few points down is going to help, she is not going to take them on board, its like trying to reason with a nutter. I dont think i would allow my daughter to have any sort of contact with her, i would happily be the bad guy to protect her. I dont think your mother is of any good influence for your daughter.

It is a vey hard situation to navigate, to turn your back on your mother. We are hardwired to believe you shouldnt do that, but sometimes we have to, to protect ourselves and our own family.
All the best.

Can’t trampoline

Your DH should under no circumstances go and visit your mother with his child

You are very much the adult child of a narcissist mother who has trained you thoroughly to serve her at your expense

As she can’t readily reach you quite as easy these days she has turned her attention to the weak link here, your husband

Do not further subject your DD here to this serial abuser in the shape of your mother

@CantTrampoline

Edit: this has turned into a massive post. Sorry!

I've been a long-time lurker on here. Reading all your posts and getting some really good advice for dealing with my narc mother, but feeling like an imposter because my experience has been no-where near as bad as the horrendous physical abuse some of you have been through.

I'm so sorry to all of you who have been/going through so much shit.

I'm hoping for a bit of advice to pass on to my DH. He has been an absolute trouper since last Boxing Day when I finally lost my shit with my mother. I've had years of criticisms, guilt-trips, being talked-over, put-downs (to my face, but then bigged up to her friends if it makes her look good), having all credit taken away from me, you get the gist. All little digs that on their own seem pretty insignificant, and make me look like a dick if I say anything, but add up to years of misery, feeling and looking drained after every encounter, and panic attacks at the thought of seeing her. My DH calls it death by paper cut. My childhood wasn't too bad (apart from being screamed at and smacked, even when I'd be crying in bed because I was worried she'd die from smoking.) It seemed to get worse as I grew up and became more independent. I realise that now from all the insightful comments on here. I never had any privacy...she would stand and watch me getting dressed. Commenting on what I was wearing, criticising my choices, or lack of make-up, and would always come into the bathroom (especially when I was going through puberty) when I was in the bath or shower saying she was desperate for the loo (we had a downstairs loo, but she'd make the trip upstairs). She'd sit and look me up and down, I'd cover myself up with a flannel or turn my back in the shower. Very unnerving. She'd even pull my knickers out at the front to see if I had "any feathers down there" as she would put it. WTF was that all about? I can't remember how old I was, I'm guessing about 12, when she was kissing me goodnight, she used to say "give me a kiss, like I'm your boyfriend". Always in a jokey voice, but that's not right is it? (I didn't BTW).

Then she just seemed to gradually ramp it up as I got older and more independent. I lived at home until I was nearly 30 as couldn't afford to move out. But after graduating at 29 ( with a first and the highest score in the whole year...her first response was "huh, I didn't think you'd finish it") I finally moved out. She hated it, and that's when she became even more controlling, constant phone calls (wanting long chats when I was at work, getting "hurt" and nasty when I said I couldn't talk, you know the stuff).

She spent years telling me how I'd be "left on the shelf" but then couldn't bear it when my now DH did the honorable thing and asked to marry me. Her response "well, you know she's been engaged before?". (My dad died suddenly 10 years ago...she was an absolute bitch to him to, but has played the grieving widow ever since. But that's a different story).

Anyhow, I thought things would get better once we had kids. But no, she now has an extra reason to pick fault, and she tries it on my DD (7) too. We only have one DD, and she was a terrible sleeper for about 6 months. I literally had 3 hours of sleep in 30 min blocks for 6 months. Got no support from my mother, all I got was how much harder she had it, and how she did so much more and still coped. She even deliberately woke me up one day when I went for a nap, despite my DH repeatedly telling her not to. She stood at my bedroom door, clearing her throat until I woke up (I'd just nodded off) to "check I was ok". And then got hurt when I told her to go away.

Oh, and she couldn't bear to think that we might have a second child. (She apparently had 4 miscarriages after having me ( I'm an only child). She even once said that I "took it all out of her"). For 4 years after our DD was born, every time I saw her she'd say "I hope you're not trying for another one, not at YOUR age. You can't cope with the one you've got". I could. I also had a miscarriage when DD was 2 but obviously didn't tell my mother.

Anyway, I've massively digressed (it's just good to get a tiny bit of it off my chest). There's SO much more, but what I came here for us this: 10 years ago I tried to tell her, over the phone, how her treatment of me made me feel. She first denied it, then said she couldn't remember, then that she wasn't going to change at her age. That should have been a massive red flag. She improved though, for about a month, then just ramped it up. Then I threw her out of my house about 5 years ago after she shouted "shut-up" to our DD who was 2 at the time. I'd had an argument with my mother in the supermarket, and my DD dared to turn round and all she said was "nanny?". Last Boxing day after another excruciating and tense Christmas Day at hers, I finally lost it after I dared to correct her about something (another put-down) and she told me to fuck off. I regret immensely that my DD had to witness me screaming and crying, but I couldn't hold it in. My mother, if course, did the whole "why are you being nasty to me?" and "I wish I'd died and not your father" routine. I also made the mistake (I think) of calling her a narcissist. She shouted "what? I don't even know what that means". You have never seen 3 people leave the house so quickly. So since then I've completely cut her out of my life. Blocking calls, tore up a letter I received from her, bday card in the bin. DH has kept in contact for our DDs sake, and has seen her a few times outside during covid. My daughter seems to understand exactly how my mother makes me feel, and we've explained about guilt-trips etc. DH is also acutely aware of mother's tactics and doesn't leave DD alone with her.

This Christmas he is taking DD to see my mother on Boxing Day just for a few hours. I'd rather he wasn't, but my DD wants to see her. But despite my telephone call 10 years ago, and her looking up "narcissist" on the internet, she still doesn't know what she's done wrong. She even said to my DH "that's awful, I don't do that!". So I know she'll never accept it, but my DH is getting it in the ear and has asked me to write a few points down to give her. I've said it will all sound petty, and won't make a difference. But I still feel like I owe her some sort of explanation, and feel guilty that my DH is now having to deal with it. What do I do?

What you experienced as a child was many forms of horrific abuse - including sexual abuse. If your mother was male it would be crystal clear that these actions were sexual abuse. They have stuck in your mind exactly because they are so disturbing. There is a thread running currently on familial child sexual abuse and a couple of posters mention what happened with their own mothers and how they were never believed because the idea of female sexual abusers is taboo.

Well done for NC. The next step is to totally remove your DD from this ogre. Just because she is her grandmother and juts because your DD wants to see her does not make it safe. You and your DH are following misguidedly “cultural norms” with grandparent relationship - these do not apply when the grandparent is abusive. Even if she isn’t directly abusive to your DD (yet) she is indirectly harming her by causing trauma to you. Your DD needs a strong, confident role model (you) who knows when people have been abusive / crossed boundaries repeatedly and calmly WALKS AWAY from it.

This is the most important lesson she needs to learn in life.

Also for you - any involvement with your DM is foolish and futile and will continue to wound you deeply - you need to focus on your recovery so that you can be healed from the emotional violence your DM has inflicted on you for decades. You been whole and healed is what your DD needs and you deserve.

Have you had any therapy to come through this?

Use COVID for your DD not to see your DM this year - and then set about having her 100% out of all of your lives. She is totally toxic and dangerous and will never change - you should not put your DD, your marriage your family life anywhere near this woman. She will manipulate and abuse your child in ways you won’t initially see. Somewhere along the line you or your DD will be hoovered back in further to be her carer.

Keeping up your distance and totally detach with confidence.

I am sorry that you have endured so much - focus on your restorative emotional health now.

@CantTrampoline
Your mother was horrific, the lack of privacy almost to the level of sexual abuse, this is designed to humiliate and crush you and stop you developing into an independent adult
From your description I find your mother sinister and unsavory, something deeply unpleasant about her:(
it's as if she has no impulse control whatsoever:(
She cut you out of her life, yay the trash took itself out🌞 this is a cause for celebration🍾
You owe her nothing cut her dead

Cailindeas35

Would not bother with sending your nephew a card. With his mother's influence he could well grow up becoming a narcissist himself. You would not be taking it out on him if you did not send him this; after all he is likely to hardly know you anyway or in any sort of favourable light thanks to his mother.

CantTrampoline

I would agree with every single world of Ssloou's post also; please take heed.

The malignant narcissist in the shape of your mother is still a malignant narcissist even after you give birth. The fundamental nature of your malignantly narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where ACONs usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

Your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your Nparent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children. Never for a moment leave your child alone with this serial abuser. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look. If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with your Nparent. Ever. Your DH won't likely pick up on any of that and as the weak link here he is basically playing into her hands. He needs to stop with giving her any headspace here.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

You will find that the childr will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your Nparent in the hearing of children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Your DD doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny.

@Sssloou is right
Can'trampolineThis wasn't almost sexual abuse it was sexual abuse, you can't see it because of what she's done to you, you're deeply in fog I think
she has not treated you like a daughter she has treated you like a rival whom she must destroy
it's not that she doesn't know what she's done wrong it's that she refuses to acknowledge that anything she did could have been wrong, this refusal to be accountable for your own behaviour is an expression of complete arrogance.