September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You also have two qualities that your mother lacks completely; empathy and insight. I cannot over emphasise the narcissists complete lack of empathy and insight here. They are also very good at manipulating people and using them as "flying monkeys" to do their bidding for them. Your DH is currently in effect her flying monkey.

Such toxic abusers like your mother never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

@Cailindeas35

Hi all I have a dilemma with xmas, i have one nephew, who is my sisters child. I am no contact with her, and very happy to be. I was going to send my nephew a xmas card and voucher, but im now debating whether i actually should.

The background with my sister is, she is the golden child and i was indoctrinated to believe she is the most amazing human to have ever graced the earth. To be honest i was always sacred of upsetting her, because of her own wrath but also my mothers. So i spent my early years trying to please.
At the age of 35 i was diagnosed with breast cancer, and as a single parent i desperately needed support and help, needless to say i got very little of that. My sister took paid compassionate leave from her job, convienently i managed to get cancer in the summer. She promised to help, but didnt. She minded my children for 1 of my 16 chemos, i could go on. There is much more but id be here all day.

It was only then, and with the insight of my partner i realised i was being treated appalling and that i didnt deserve it. She is ruthless, self serving, manipulative and just not a nice person.
But my nephew is a child, and i dont want to take it out on him, but most important of all i want to protect myself and my own children.

What do ye think should i send or not?

@Cailindeas35 You have been to hell and back with your DM and DS. Well done on your NC. To maintain it it needs to be absolutely watertight and any gifts to your DN opens up a channel of communication.

It is v difficult with children in this but I have learnt on here that some relationships need to be collateral damage. It’s best to keep away otherwise you are just setting up a v difficult situation for the future where both DCs will be used as pawns to manipulate, provoke, guilt and hurt you - and the DCs will also be hurt in this process. I have recent personal experience of this - where the Narc was happy to throw their own kid under the bus repeatedly to punish me and my children.

@Googlebrained, sorry to have left it so long before replying to this, but the family court system is so easily abused by narcissts. I was reading a really interesting article the other day about “parental alienation” and how that is often used to deprive a parent of their child, which shouldn’t really happen! If you want the link I can share but it’s a bit off-topic for the thread! I will read the Peter Walker thread too, thanks :)

@AttilaTheMeerkat sorry, I know it was directed at someone else, but your comments about narcissistic grandparents really struck a chord. I think my own mother’s awfulness - although now where near as bad as some of the other parents mentioned here - blinded me to how controlling other members of my family are, in this case my grandmother, and she definitely hates my mother and wants to get one over on her, or several. I feel extremely guilty that I’ve been living in her house for months and don’t feel grateful, or want to spend Christmas (one of the things she shouted before I left was “a few thank yous would be nice) but a big part of me feels like I just want to get out of the orbit of my family, or I’m never going to get better or live a happy life. Maybe I will go for the self-isolation lie, but I will probably chicken out. She was literally going to drive up in a taxi today to collect me but had to cancel because I was admitted to hospital. Unfortunately it wasn’t for something I can pretend lasts for seven days!

But I also keep doubting myself becayse she has been generous, done things like let me stay with her (though that I’m sure is partly about loneliness) and offered to pay for my tuition and things. Maybe she is just really nice?

@CantTrampoline I’m so sorry you went through that, it sounds horrendous. You must be so tough to have survived and to be doing fine. And yes, definitely don’t let her anywhere near your daughter. Children can be much more sensitive and she will likely pick up on the trauma and stress of the situation from you even if your grandmother doesn’t mistreat her directly.

I’m just really dreading Christmas. I always hate it but the prospect of spending Christmas with my grandmother makes me feel sick. I’ll ask for a few more days in Durham after discharge but I really, really don’t even spend a day with her even.

my grandmother makes me feel sick
I say listen to your gut Cecile!
But I also keep doubting myself because she has been generous
she's nice because she knows that she has to keep you sweet or you wont go anywhere near her
...think Hansel & Grettel, the gingerbread house used to lure in the children so that the witch can feast upon them.

The thing is, I did say I would go but I think I’m just going to change my plans. I’m not sure if I have the toughness needed to do it.

Beside which, I just want to not have to deal with my family any more, but I do realise that maybe I’m the narcissist? I’ve lost several people as friends and boyfriends after outbursts or generally being ill with CTPTSD (and other problems too) and I know there’s a huge road ahead to get better and live a more normal life. I have been out of contact with my parents for months before and just felt guilty and also sad, like someone had died, for no reason I can work out. This attitude of narcissists that I see written out on here is just baffling to me. One of the reasons I’m hesitating over my GM is worries about leaving her sad and alone at Christmas.

OK, that problem could be solved but my dad could go and spend the day with her. The other offer on the table is from my mum though :S

Prioritise you. Your GM is just toying with you to flick the Vs to your M. It's power play.do what is best for you nor for those who don't have your best interests at heart or use you to point score

@CeciledeVolanges

The thing is, I did say I would go but I think I’m just going to change my plans. I’m not sure if I have the toughness needed to do it.

Beside which, I just want to not have to deal with my family any more, but I do realise that maybe I’m the narcissist? I’ve lost several people as friends and boyfriends after outbursts or generally being ill with CTPTSD (and other problems too) and I know there’s a huge road ahead to get better and live a more normal life. I have been out of contact with my parents for months before and just felt guilty and also sad, like someone had died, for no reason I can work out. This attitude of narcissists that I see written out on here is just baffling to me. One of the reasons I’m hesitating over my GM is worries about leaving her sad and alone at Christmas.

Cecilede thank you!

I'm really worried about you., Especially as you're in hospital. Please, please do not go back to your GM. Ever. She is using every guilt tactic in the book. My mother would also do lots of nice things for me (what it suits her to do, eg gardening/housework) but then uses that to hold over me so she can say "after all I've done for you" when I didn't do what she wanted. She would also use it to belittle me telling me that I couldn't do it without her.

Your GM is also deeply controlling. Recording films for you isn't a nice gesture she's doing it to guilt trip you into going back. Also, coming to pick you up in a taxi so you feel you can't say no.

You are NOT the narcissist here. Please don't think that. I would highly suggest getting a new phone number if you can (I did) and blocking her on all social media platforms. Change the locks to your flat if you can and do not answer the door if she arrives. I know the thought of doing all that will make you feel guilty, but trust me, once you've had a few days without contact you'll start to see how awesome it is. And, I also know that if she turns up, your to heart will probably beat out of your chest, but she will leave if she thinks you're not there, and you'll calm down. It's a lot better than the alternative.

Have to dash, daughter is awake. Sending you strength and love x

Thank you everyone. I really don’t know what I would be doing now without all of you and your kind advice!

Cecile

If you think you are a narcissist you are highly likely to not be one of those types at all. Infact you have two qualities that your parents and GM lack completely; empathy and insight.

Your parents and grandmother are all very much one and the same; abusers and narcissistic. Your GM is indeed trying to manipulate you further here and she and your mother are one and the same. She paying for your tuition also was not the nice gesture it appears on the surface to be; it was bait, she was trying to steal your heart and mind and get one over on your mother. Your GM won't be sad or feeling alone; more like pissed off that you have not fallen into line here as you were supposed to!. Let her stew in her own juice.

I won't be around as much for the next couple of weeks as am on holiday but I will pop into the Stately Home from time to time over the festive period to see if anyone is about.

I would like to wish each and every one of you people a very Happy Christmas and New Year and I sincerely hope you all get to spend that time how you wish to do so.

May 2021 hopefully be a better year for us all!

With best wishes

A x

I did borrow some money for my parents for one of my degrees as it would have been impossible to pay for it without it. However, since I’ve been earning I have politely refused offers of money and if I need more I work more to supplement my income! Contrary to appearances I really want to be independent and self-supporting but my family just ignored that/don’t really respect it (I suppose that is the lack of empathy). Anyway, thank you for your reply and I hope you have a very good break!

Sorry once again for the excessive amount of my posting. My grandmother has literally been calling the hospital every day despite also emailing multiple times a day (giving brief replies to try to stem the flow). Meanwhile an entire drama has developed with my parents over Christmas! I am honestly hoping for lockdown - selfishly and also because I don’t want loads of people to die - or considering pretending I’ve developed symptoms. I’ll have to send some big presents. This is really stressful when I’m so physically unwell as well.

Just popping on here quickly to say a massive thank you for all your messages of support and advice. Bit hard to message as busy with family stuff. I will speak to my DH about Boxing Day...I KNOW I should stop my DD from seeing her too, it's just the guilt kicking in (not feeling bad for my mother, feeling bad for my DD.). I don't think my DH is a flying monkey, he's just caught in the middle trying to make everyone happy. Although the more he has to deal with her, the more he's seeing what I went through. He can't stand her either. Wish we could just move to Australia, that would sort it!

I just need to share something that shows just how pathetic she is. Before I went NC she would message first thing every day and if I didn't respond within her timeframe (about an hour), I'd get another asking if I was ok (code for "why haven't you replied"). And if I dared to not respond straight away I'd get another saying "I've texted several times an no reply". Followed by " can you at least reply so I know you're read it". So I told her " I don't always have my phone on me and not check-in it every 5 mins". Her reply was "well, what if I died?" WTF? So she now has arranged with her neighbour (who she always bitches about), that she will text the neighbour just with the word "OK" every morning so that my mother knows that her neighbour knows that my mother isn't dead! Fucking mental. So I asked if my mother pays the neighbour the same courtesy, and she said "well I don't have to be side she see HER children". What a stupid cow. Anyhow, hopefully that might have made some of you smile.

Few typos in there, sorry

Cecile

Do not respond to your grandmother, any reply you send is a response and that to her is the reward. Radio silence to all your family members has to be maintained.

Do not send them any presents either. You are unwell and so cannot and in fact should not send them anything. They do not deserve anything other than contempt. I would seriously consider getting the police involved re harassment if your grandmother keeps on attempting to contact you (she has clearly not listened to anything your support worker said either).

Q- well what if I died
A- 'I might get some peace and quiet'😄
if you stop pandering to these people they are exposed for the complete plonkers that they are!!
It's US 'bowing and scraping' to them that gives them their legitimacy, that's what I see when I fight my way through all the FOG
And of course the idea of fighting through fog makes a fool out of us, because we have been wrestling with mist!

Can’t trampoline

Sod feeling guilty here and keep your most precious of resource here, ie your child, well away from your mother. She must not be at all further exposed to this serial abuser under any circumstances. Do not feel bad for your daughter here, you are protecting her from Bad Things. Sadly no one did that for you as a child.

Your DH needs to back off completely from your mother also, he trying to keep everyone happy does not work because you won’t be and are not happy and if he goes to your mother’s he will merely be playing into her hands. Does he know the full extent of what your childhood was like?.

Have a good holiday @AttilaTheMeerkat. Your support on here is invaluable

@CantTrampoline that is 100% about control and nothing to do with fear of you dying, that’s just a convenient excuse. My mother once called my boss, while my boss was in a meeting, because she was afraid I had died (allegedly). I had been in contact with my mum’s mum earlier that day. It also makes it look legitimate to the uninitiated: “oh, she’s just worried” and it might even make it seem that you might die, which would imply frailty or an inability on your part to look after yourself, an ideal excuse for your mum to draw you deeper into her web because you need looking after. Just imagine that behaviour repeated in relation to your DD. It doesn’t bear thinking about really, does it? Also, I’m not sure if this is permitted or discouraged here, but I have the same doubts as you, can we agree that we will both be brave and tell our respective family members no? This is such a hard time of year and it might be good to know someone else is doing the same thing as we are, even though it’s hard.

@CeciledeVolanges

Sorry once again for the excessive amount of my posting. My grandmother has literally been calling the hospital every day despite also emailing multiple times a day (giving brief replies to try to stem the flow). Meanwhile an entire drama has developed with my parents over Christmas! I am honestly hoping for lockdown - selfishly and also because I don’t want loads of people to die - or considering pretending I’ve developed symptoms. I’ll have to send some big presents. This is really stressful when I’m so physically unwell as well.

Bloody hell, she just won't leave you alone. Definitely get out of Christmas! Tell them you're having to isolate as you've been exposed to someone with Covid. Say track and trace contacted you. There is no need for you to send big presents, you don't owe these people anything. And you're not being selfish, you're looking after yourself. Hope you get better soon. Xx

[quote CeciledeVolanges]@CantTrampoline that is 100% about control and nothing to do with fear of you dying, that’s just a convenient excuse. My mother once called my boss, while my boss was in a meeting, because she was afraid I had died (allegedly). I had been in contact with my mum’s mum earlier that day. It also makes it look legitimate to the uninitiated: “oh, she’s just worried” and it might even make it seem that you might die, which would imply frailty or an inability on your part to look after yourself, an ideal excuse for your mum to draw you deeper into her web because you need looking after. Just imagine that behaviour repeated in relation to your DD. It doesn’t bear thinking about really, does it? Also, I’m not sure if this is permitted or discouraged here, but I have the same doubts as you, can we agree that we will both be brave and tell our respective family members no? This is such a hard time of year and it might be good to know someone else is doing the same thing as we are, even though it’s hard.[/quote]
Sorry Cecilede didn't see your reply. Yes I'm going to speak to my DH later when DD is in bed.
I think you're GM is truly awful and really needs to fade away. Can you ask the nurses to not pass on any messages to you and also to not give her any info. Also is there a way of blocking her emails? And if your phone isn't locked to a network I'd recommended ordering a giffgaff sim card and so it's waiting for you when you get home so she doesn't have your number.

I’ve got a new contract, but have stupidly lost the sim so I need to call them and ask for another. Changing my phone number does seem like an enormous faff, but worth it!
The new Tier 4 restrictions sound like they might be a good reason not to go to my mum’s or dad’s, but that still leaves my grandmother. I think I’m going to have to write something down, use my DBT skills to be assertive, and just not take no for an answer. If my dad is coming up he can meet from 2m or something. I might just say I’ve been in a Tier 3 hospital and she is a frail old lady so I don’t want to be around my GM.
I do hate Christmas. Sorry it’s such a difficult time for so many here, who are dealing with it really well.

Thought of you while watching the briefing
Think of it as a Christmas gift to you.