September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Free3mee3 I’m really sorry you’re in that situation. I was raised in a situation where I got materially valuable gifts but Christmas has always been a time to dread for me. It might not be what they want right now, or even for a few years, but keeping them away from toxicity in this season is what they need, and if it occurs to them they will thank you down the line. Physical gifts are one thing when you’re little, but I’m still experiencing the fight over my carcass which is the next step. You’re doing the right thing. Stay strong.

@Free and @Jingle as a lawyer (sorry) I feel I have to say this - the law just gives abusers a more formal, better-dressed route to abuse. Please never see the law as anything other than a more sophisticated and powerful tool that people who are already despicable can use to beat you with. Never let the imperfections of the law blind you to your knowledge or convictions, or to the essential rightness of what you’re sure of. I’m certain you don’t need this, but just be reassured - lawyers are all people and if you’re laughing the law will probably laugh with you.

This thread is honestly such an amazing thing, this time of year seems to turn the madness up to full power. Family members who we have little contact with all year come out the woodwork. Even with the lack of visiting on Christmas Day this year there has been a lot of door knocking to drop presents off. Even though we have asked for years only to buy for each other’s DC we are now being given bags of gift for us which we have specifically asked not to be bought, I haven’t bought these people anything in return and it is making me feel thoughtless and inconsiderate. We don’t have the finances to buy gifts in return and we barely see them so seems pointless.

These people make no effort to spend time with us or take any interest in our lives, why they feel the need to buy us gifts I don’t know... they haven’t been in touch during difficult family times this year but they roll up with wrapped gifts? Makes no sense to me.

Is this just the narc in them? Wanting to be thanked and look like they are wonderful when they have done nothing for us?

DH thinks I’m overreacting to it and I possibly am, this time of year drives me nuts.

M making out how lonely she will be and saying how she’s spent most of the year not seeing anyone. She royally ruined the day last year by throwing what I can only describe as a tantrum when I dared to indicate what time she should arrive. She was told in no uncertain terms it wasn’t acceptable and I left her to it. She then turned up later than I had originally asked her to come (her argument was she wanted to come earlier ironically, so just didn’t appear) stating she wanted DC to have gifts on the day. If she wanted that she would have turned up when asked. It’s a fairly reasonable thing to be given a time to arrive at someone’s home when they are hosting you for a meal. But for some reason she took huge exception to it. DH says we should leave her to her own devices after that performance. His DF isn’t going to come this year, he says because of Covid though I suspect the embarrassing performance he had to witness will have played a part in putting him off. Dinner was late as we were expecting her to arrive at a certain time, etc.

I wish I could get past this FOG. My head agrees with DH. She was so far out of line it was unreal, completely ruined the day which is difficult for us anyway. It’s obviously the latest in a long, long list of shitty behaviour, I wonder why she thinks it’s ok for her to behave in this way and expect to be forgiven. Probably because this is what happens, I wonder why I allow it! I suppose I have been trained to accept this and she knows my nature, I am “soft” in general and she knows I will feel guilt to leave her alone. She plays on it and I hate that, I hate that she has treated me badly my whole life and someone I feel guilty for saying that’s enough!

Sorry for the rant!!

@CeciledeVolanges I feel for you with the manipulation, it sounds like it has been truly relentless. Please keep checking in here, with those who understand

@SlayDuggee you definitely need some peace from your brother, it’s so frustrating to have to deal with. You have enough on your plate, if he wants to see you, he can make an effort. My B asked me if I had turned into a “grumpy bastard” in my old age because I said no to him the other day. I said I’ve just had enough of being everyone’s personal assistant. It’s exhausting, you don’t just get to say no, you then have to explain the no.

@Jinglealltheway22 sorry to hear about your Ms attempt to get you to court but glad to hear you haven’t heard anything since, I hope this continues for you. So many of these Narcs just can’t be told anything other than what they want to hear. How dare we stand up for ourselves or not put up with their behaviour

@LadyAnanas definitely stay off social media, it won’t do you any good. I know how tempting it is. I have taken all social media apps off my phone to save temptation. It’s like picking a scab looking at it when it involves some people and the comments from those who believe their version of themselves they display to the world can be hard to stomach.

@Googlebrained I hope things can be resolved though I imagine it is complex, it’s hard when people want to make an already difficult situation worse or even more difficult!

Thinking of everyone on this thread particularly at this time of year which seems to be so triggering

Hi

I haven’t posted on here in a while (which was a good thing really as I was starting to make headway). I’ve been NC with my mother for over a year and it has been NC - no flying monkeys, no attempts at letters, or emails, or calls (all blocked so I wouldn’t know).

But, it’s my birthday today and of course who sent me a card? Luckily I recognised the handwriting and it went straight in the bin - never even made it into my home. But it really annoyed and upset me and I had a little cry this morning.

I’m ok now - just felt very alone for a moment (this time of year is hard enough as it is).

But it made me wonder is she still going to manage to ruin every birthday I have? Why can’t they get the message and just leave us alone.

Anyway, just wanted to vent. I hope everyone is ok. I know that Christmas can be a difficult time so I wish everyone well.

yellowlemon

You absolutely did the right thing in disposing of the card the way you did. Your mother does this hoovering behaviour (hoovering is a well known tactic that narcissists employ) to try and regain the control she has lost over you and to bring you back into her dysfunctional fold. The best thing further to do here is to maintain radio silence.

Hello! I think it's been a whole year since I was on here, as I haven't seen my mother since then, and I've no plans to communicate with her. I'm feeling crippled with guilt at the moment though.

She was a terrible, immature, bully of a mother who abused and exploited her children to satisfy her love of drama (both parents were violent, she was constantly cheating and using her kids to collude with, and to protect her) There was no golden child as she loathed us both and resented parenting full stop. She reinvented herself when she remarried and now is the the most respectable, most clever, most fascinating of women (in her dreams!). She has painted my childhood as a picture of her victimhood - the poor woman who was bullied by her ex and us children, and the violence, neglect and cruelty to her offspring didn't happen. How could it have happened when SHE was the victim?

She has spent my adult years, sneering, smirking, gossiping and despising me, and desperately wishing that she could rescue my 'poor' children from my terrible parenting (despite not really making any effort with them, and none of them are interested in a relationship with her now they are grown up) But to my face, she is gracious and faux generous. I have spent so many years being polite and kind to her, but with my stomach in knots as I am so tense around her. Everything I said to her is used in evidence of my inferiority and general disappointing behaviour.

I'd been seeing less and less of her after a huge scene when I said 'no' to a request , as, for once , I couldn't accommodate her. She behaved terribly and it became clear just how dreadful she was. We met up for a pre Christmas family lunch last year but it was clear to me and DH just how disfunctional the whole lot of them are (mother, her husband and my sibling and family) and I have stepped away from the lot of them.

I only messaged her lightly at the beginning of the year, and it tailed off completely in the summer. I didn't hear from her until two days ago, when she sent a cheery message about exchanging Christmas presents, which I didn't reply to, and I've now blocked her. I feel so guilty though - I feel that she won't understand, that she will think I took advantage of her as she has done some nice things for us in the last few years (using the money that was actually supposed to be for me that she stole but that's another story...)

She's a horrible, devious, bully of a woman and I'm an adult with adult children of my own, so why do I feel so guilty? How do I make the guilt stop? Why am I so scared that she'll turn up and be upset (she won't!)? Why do I CARE that she might be upset?

Thank you if you made it this far

She's a horrible, devious, bully of a woman and I'm an adult with adult children of my own, so why do I feel so guilty? How do I make the guilt stop?
Polly, I hear you it is very difficult to get rid of that sense of guilt, the FOG is a kind of spell that they have imposed upon us.
But in your own words ...you know that she is devious and a bully, she knows exactly what she's doing, it's deliberate, she understands what's going on, she uses your suffering, your pain, your discomfort, humiliation, embarrassment, she uses all of that to her advantage
Your guilt is entirely misplaced, she is the guilty one, you are the innocent victim

I know - you are so right! It's hard to stop thinking of her pretendy 'Oh no, but I've tried so hard to be a good mum' sad face, and remember how she pours bile and spite out of her mouth when she talks about her children.

It's tough though

You absolutely did the right thing @yellowlemon well done for intercepting it and getting rid of it! Happy Birthday! I hope you can have a nice day and glad you avoided the attempt to make it all about her.

@PollyDangerCrackers you care about her feelings because you are a good person, but she plays on that!

Note how all of these people who should have shown us all the most care treat us poorly, some horrifically so and we are all sitting here feeling like the bad ones. They do one or two nice things for us and we feel indebted. It’s all been instilled in us for so long. Most of us would never accept this behaviour from a friend or keep score of the “nice things” we do for our children but when it comes to ourselves and these piss poor parents we put ourselves last. We’ve been trained to do it from day one and it is hard to escape.

Standing up for yourself makes you the bad one, blocking contact, reducing contact, whatever is done to protect ourselves which doesn’t suit their agenda makes us bad, ungrateful, awful, etc. Their crimes are to be brushed under the carpet and endlessly forgiven all because they brought us into the world. Really they should be held to higher account as the people who should have kept us safe & secure but tore us down.

We are all allowed to protect ourselves and that is all you are doing! They should be the ones to feel the shame & the guilt... not us

You are so right! My mother's crimes were all swept under the carpet and must never be mentioned again. They have us so well-trained, don't they?

And happy birthday, Yellowlemon!

@PollyDangerCrackers

I know - you are so right! It's hard to stop thinking of her pretendy 'Oh no, but I've tried so hard to be a good mum' sad face, and remember how she pours bile and spite out of her mouth when she talks about her children.

It's tough though

I imagine that you have never communicated or reflected back any of the feelings you have for her directly? I suspect that you have been paralysed and silenced by her antics over the years.

I suspect that it’s the Fear in the FOG that is taking you emotionally hostage.

Fear of her getting upset maybe - and you being responsible for triggering her rage.

I expect you only needed to see this eruption once or twice in your childhood to then be trained to walk on eggshells.

You have likely spent your life hyper vigilant to her moods and volatility, swallowing and repressing your own feelings in order to avoid an eruption.

But you are being brave and courageous tackling it another way. You know confrontations are both foolish, futile and dangerous but it’s still scary to do LC/NC because all of your own lifetime of repressed emotions could also erupt. Keep being courageous - and acknowledge that you can’t have courage without fear.

Bingo, Sssloou! I was rebellious towards her for a couple of years in my teens, and she would do anything to win. She would crash in on me in the bathroom or when I was in bed asleep, and pound and kick me until she couldn't lift her arm anymore. Then she would ring the school, and the family, and her friends, and anyone else relevant (including the counsellor that the GP sent me to, and my mother high jacked) and weep down the phone about how I had attacked her, while SHE was in the bathroom ... everyone was always on her side so I just gave up even trying to explain.

I've dealt with it by strapping on my invisible armour, plastering on a fake smile, and sitting there with my stomach in knots. I could cry when I think of how mean she was, when I was a young mum and I needed some support.

I am scared of her, you are right.

@PollyDangerCrackers that’s shocking physical and emotional abuse that you have endured - and along with all of her gaslighting you must be v traumatised.

She doesn’t deserve you.

She doesn’t deserve a fraction of your headspace, time, emotional energy - because she has wounded you and already drained you of so much. Conserve your headspace, time and emotional energy and redirect it to anything and everything that will help you heal and grow. Any recovery won’t come from the source of pain and destruction. Detach from her to emotionally protect yourself.

Thank you so much. I've blocked my mother on all fronts this evening, and it's scary but I'm feeling braver. I am traumatised, yes, very traumatised, but I can do this.

Polly I felt compelled to answer. Your account of what your mother did is just awful. I've never heard of such expert manipulation, poor you and poor you the battered, manipulated child. Please have nothing more to do with this woman she will only cause pain and distress. So sorry this happened to you it is truly horrific as is she. Block her and get help and move on with having a good life. Ps I am 49 and still scared of my v LC mother you are not alone xxxx

Morning! Please don't feel sorry for me - it sounds shocking but I survived all of it, and some of it made me very resilient. It wasn't just me either, as my sibling had it as bad, if not worse. And she broke our DF, who had several breakdowns and died comparatively young.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty good today now that she's blocked. She can only reach me by post or actually turning up, and I don't think she will risk the latter.

Polly your female parent (deliberately avoiding the term 'mother') sounds demonic
You must be very tough to have survived the time that you were subjected to her
Please do everything you can to stop her from accessing you in any way.
You deserve to be free of the menace that she is💗🦋

As some of you may remember from a few pages ago, I've been limiting contact with my parents since the start of the most recent lockdown due to the way they treat and speak to me.
Well I was dreading the awful feeling around Christmas so about a week ir 2 ago I rang them. I didn't say anything about the limiting contact, but did enough so that Xmas arrangements wouldn't be hard.. Or as hard as they could be.

They have been putting pressure on me to arrange something for Christmas so dh and I agreed that we didn't want it hanging over our actual Xmas so agreed it best to see them this weekend. Arranged over text to see them Saturday morning, all good.
Today is my first day off work since arrangements were made. My mum has so far texted me asking what films I'm watching (my day off consists of spending time with my 2 year old, she knows this. Anyone with a brain knows you can't watch a film with a 2 year old!).
She's Rung me twice. I've ignored the calls. She's now texted me saying she's tried ringing but it says I'm not accepting calls. That she hopes I'm OK and will see them at the weekend.
I know it's so pathetic sounding but why is it as soon as I give a little, they take a mile.? I've told them I won't be as contactable. I've told them I won't be spending as much time with them. I've told them that I don't appreciate the way they speak to me and this is the reason. Yet here we are, mother still trying to ascert herself and brush things over.
Just accept that I am an adult who doesn't need her mother there at every second of the day to 'OK' what I'm doing or the decisions I make. Drives me up the wall.
I'm now dreading the weekend even more than I was before. I know they will be full of passive aggressive comments and I won't stand for them now. I can see me asking them to leave my house if they start with their standard behaviour, and then I'll be told I've 'ruined Christmas'. Ugh roll on Saturday afternoon when it's done and I can go and enjoy mine, dh and ds's festive meal out.

Pears I think the bottom line is that they are always seeking to regain what they see as their rightful position ....ie in charge of you
they have an authoritarian mindset and think that they are the head of the family and you should defer to them

Hi everyone, not been on here for a little while and sorry to butt in but I need some sage advice about continuing unwanted contact from my 'family'. Not sure if anyone remembers my posts but I have been NC with my cheating, lying and manipulative borderline mother for ten odd years. My DB and SIL chose to throw me under the bus when I finally got up the courage to make the break. Combination of, I think, supporting my DM (who they needed at the time) and also my ex-husband who I split from and later divorced. Another emotionally abusive relationship. I was never actually told why I was cut off by them but they have rarely given me a second thought in the last ten years. I and my daughter have had some tough times with my ex-husband.

Forward ten years, lots of therapy, self work, shedding of unhealthy 'friends', working full time, own house, lovely new partner. Successfully sorted my life out when DB and SIL pop up trying to make contact with me. Turns out they are now NC with my mother and have moved away from her. I suspect the penny was finally dropping that they would end up as her carer and to break with her means losing the rest of the family, her flying monkeys.

I have ignored clumsy texts from my brother (now blocked) and a long email from SIL claiming an epiphany about my 'toxic mother' and I was right all along. Ho hum.

However, I have now received a christmas card from them - hand picked, not the usual bottom of the box number I used to get - saying they 'would love to keep in touch' with their address, mobile numbers etc. I can happily ignore this but I am slightly concerned about them just turning up. They don't seem to have got the hint that I don't want to know and obviously have no idea how much they hurt me with their behaviour. Totally and utterly oblivious. My DB has always treated me with a combination of indifference and contempt, was my abusive mother's sidekick and never changed. I don't want anything with them.

Do I continue to ignore or do I need to set them straight to get rid of them? This is making me very uncomfortable now. Any advice gratefully accepted.

@Dacquoise God yes, ignore them. They don't represent a safe space for you. Its in their interest to restore the old dynamic...Not yours. @Pearsapiece now sounds like a good time to be isolating. Give them an inch and you've seen they e taken more already. If you're feeling tactful say you're poorly$isolating/whatever to put them off. If you're not, tell them they've ignored your boundaries and you are asserting them. If they choose to ignore your boundaries, they are choosing to ruin Christmas, not you.

@Dacquoise 100% continue to ignore.

They know you do not want contact because you have not been in contact for 10 years, have ignored DB texts and SIL email ..... but they are STILL not respecting your boundaries with the card.

They want a dialogue that suits their agenda, an offload etc. There was no acknowledgement of their contribution to the hurt they caused you and your DD. They still don’t see it. They are still the same people. You have done so well - you don’t need this scab picked. Emotionally you don’t need this conversation no matter how short.

Is it likely that they will doorstep you? They haven’t done to date. If they do they would do it even if you said don’t contact me again. So just be ready for it.....in the unlikely event it happens.

Don’t answer the door.

If they persist or intercept you on your driveway calmly just ask them to leave and say that you have nothing to say to them. If you have to tell them a second time inform them that you will call the police if they don’t leave.

I understand that this has rattled you but don’t get drawn in to action or communication or let it haunt you. Know what you will do or saw if they turn up.

@Pearsapiece call it off. You have requested that they behave - they have disrespected this - so unless there is a consequence expect absolutely shocking behaviour on Saturday as they mock you being a pushover and punish you for daring to set a boundary.

Who cares if they “kick off” - the 24/7 threat of volatile anger is how they control you - weather the storm - it will pass.

Thanks @Sssloou, I am getting a bit worried about being doorstepped by them as their persistence is unusual behaviour. I am used to being ignored by them, even when we were in contact. They would come round to be entertained by me if they felt like it but were generally uninterested in me. DB used to socialize with my then husband, another narcissist, I was very much outside the group. So this is starting to seem quite intense for me. My partner's lovely family are coming at Christmas and I am scared they will turn up and embarrass me, plus spoil it for me.