September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

The damage she did to her children as result of her being so desperately unhappy and unable to control her temper is huge. I got the worst of it. My dad - great bloke, hopeless parent - just couldn't handle any of it. My priority from 14 was to save up enough to move out which I did at 17.

It's a whole lifetime ago. I learned very early on to stand on my own two feet, never ask for anything, and become a survivor. No kid of 6-7 years old should have to become that.

In later years, she and I spent a lot of quality time together. I am grateful for that, and I know that she is unable to face the facts of what she did. It's too terrible to contemplate. I have no doubt that these thoughts haunt her every day. Especially now that I am gone.

Maybe if my sister hadn't turned out to be just as abusive, only wearing slightly different clothes, things might have worked out differently. But for me it was the end of it, and I know that my mum will be sad that it all ended this way. But she won't blame me at all. She has seen the way my sister has treated me. History repeating. My mum is collateral damage, but I am glad that I made my peace with it.

By the way - full disclosure - I am in my late 50s!!!

@Sicario thumbs up. All power to you.

Is anyone finding it really triggering when your parents die and the siblings take over where they left off? Long saga but one sibling trying to be really manipulative over the will and get a better deal, even though it was left to us equally by buying up the best assets but still trying to dupe us into getting them for cut price. It's really quite nauseating as it's obvious what they're doing.

It's like the nightmare never ends even when our parents die. It would be lovely to just walk away but then they will get everything they want. It's incredible that some people think they're entitled to more than others just because of their fabulousness!

@Googlebrained I'm sorry for your loss.

I fear for the day I'm faced with this issue as my brother is already just as bad as my parents, I'm extremely LC with him. I just know he would try and play it to his advantage.
I have no advice I'm afraid other than that I've found it easier to distance from siblings than I have parents so once it's sorted you may have some peace. Send you love

Pearsapiece thanks so much.

I'm so sorry your brother is like my sibling. I'd so like to have loving siblings. It would go some way to healing my childhood. But when I think about it, I was always supportive of them when they were in trouble with my parents but when I was in trouble they made the most of it to get more approval from my parents, so I should have known better!

I think this is the end for me. I've always made excuses for them but enough is enough. One of the reasons I'm not fighting them more is because it would just prolong it and make it more painful.

Sending you love back.

and the siblings take over where they left off
@Googlebrained
I guess the 'explanation' is that this was a hierarchical setup, the position at the top of the totem pole has been vacated and the sibling has always viewed themselves as as having higher status than you so they 'naturally' feel that they should assume the vacated position and become the de facto parent.
This must be extremely disappointing and hurtful, a person whom you hoped would be an ally turns out to be an opportunist who seizes the first chance they get to screw you over:(

This happened in my family.

We eventually initiated legal proceedings which were swiftly resolved at the pre court mediator stage.

Should have done it much sooner.

We knew we were 100% in the right legally but bully sibling believed that they could take what they wanted.

We invested in v expensive barrister who knew that sibling would be liable for our legal and court costs.

Arrogant, entitled, deluded sibling ignored his own cheap lawyers and fought on. He told us he just wanted to rinse us of money through legal fees - he thought he had us over a barrel - and didn’t count on us getting a v expensive no win no fee top barrister because the case was so clear cut.

We got our share and the sibling had to pay our £70k legal bill - and his own legal fees.

They are not above the law.

I guess the 'explanation' is that this was a hierarchical setup, the position at the top of the totem pole has been vacated and the sibling has always viewed themselves as as having higher status than you so they 'naturally' feel that they should assume the vacated position and become the de facto parent.
This must be extremely disappointing and hurtful, a person whom you hoped would be an ally turns out to be an opportunist who seizes the first chance they get to screw you over

@Free3mee3 spot on! That's exactly what happened! When my parent became elderly they deferred to my elder sibling, so I think they thought this would continue.

@Sssloou really well done for fighting back. Ours is not as clear cut as yours obviously was. It's too complicated to go into here but my sibling is more using our goodwill and our desire to get things resolved ASAP. It's not fraud, so much as lack of personal ethics.

As always though it's not about the money, as the entitlement and not putting our relationship above personal gain.

@Sssloou
Well done for standing your ground, but how awful that you had to:(
I suppose it is par for the course, if one's parents were dysfunctional /personality disordered etc then this will feed through into the relationships between siblings
(I am not intending to excuse bad behaviour)

It's a wonder we all survived these horrible experiences, and so deeply shocking that it has happened to so many of us.

I find it staggering that there is pretty much zero education about the reality of having children, what it means, how it will affect your life, particularly as a woman (who will invariably be left holding the baby and picking up the pieces if things go wrong).

How much damage has been caused by people who really should never be parents?

I have an old black and white photo of me as a 3-4 year old in my bedroom and I look at that poor little kid every day and just want to wrap her up and take care of her like I did with my own.

@Sicario a big hug my lovely. They don’t view us as children. The Hag (MIL) regards her kids as servants.
This evening we’ve had PACO RABANE-GATE over the phone.

The amazing sister in law works for PR and has sent a crate of perfume for Xmas. Gorgeous of her. She’s had a hard few years and wants to show her appreciation.
The Hag: “I don’t know why she bothers”
Not a “how lovely” (and then if it’s not your cup of tea give it to someone who will love it, discreetly). The Hag has NO manners. I’m going to be bathing in mine and shoving my wrist under The Hag’s nose.

for everyone here... I identify with so much of your experiences.

I seem to be surround by the dysfunction on all sides. My M was certainly triggered by GMs death this year, she was NC with her but eldest sibling took on the role and massively triggered her following her death & all matters surrounding it. I felt for M seeing this play out though she also repeated a lot of the behaviours that hurt her with me so it was conflicting to feel empathy for her and also anger at her for repeating the very thing she despises. She can’t see it “it’s different”

I am LC with her which suits me fine and covid has certainly helped that. We are pretty LC without even having to try with MIL who is a classic Narc in every sense. We are the convenient black sheep of the family. With her clone DD and DGD being star of the show. She popped round with cards last night and DH and I had a bet on as to how long it would be before she mentioned DGD name. She didn’t disappoint!

Felt a pang when she left though and DD asked why all the grown ups go to cousins house - she of course spent the whole time going on and on about their plans for Christmas. Which we are happily not invited to and not taking the time to enquire what we might be doing.

We don’t fit the mould or the image, we are the poor relation and the lack of interest is fine by us, we don’t want to be around it. Though my heart did tug when DD asked the question, she’s starting to notice. DH said because they have a big house so they can fit but we don’t go cos it’s boring and like to spend the day playing games and doing fun things, she quickly snapped out of it and said “yeah! This year I think we should play...”

It does still hurt, I don’t want DD to feel how we did growing up or still now. I don’t want to go NC, I can’t be bothered with the fall out. We honestly rarely see them but when we do it’s exhausting listening to her prattle on. I genuinely think she has nothing else to say, she’s very ignorant, a true narc.

My M is more covert but still as painful, just in a different way.

If said it before and I’ll say it again, I will NEVER understand treating your children with anything less than love, care and affection. It is such an alien concept and I can’t even begin to imagine treating my DC that way and for that I am grateful that and having all you lot here to understand it

Hi Stately Homes members,
I used to post on this thread but haven't been on for a while, and I will catch up and start responding to people again soon! I'm sorry to be asking for advice but this was the best place I could think of to go.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that Christmas has always been a completely awful time of year which I dread. This year is no exception. The difference is that this summer I formulated a plan to move into a flat, on my own, which I could afford, and there I could start living independently, cooking (I'm recovering from an eating disorder and find food with other people completely overwhelming) and studying alongside my work. Unfortunately between COVID and everything else I had a bit of a mental health crisis this summer - I am diagnosed with PTSD, anxiety and depression, had been misusing alcohol to sleep without having nightmares etc and was pretty isolated. Through a long process I won't bore you with, I ended up getting back in touch with my dad (who is very controlling but not actually a narcissist) who then contrived to first get all my stuff in my mum's house in the move and then drove me to see my mum, who I hadn't spoken to for nine months. I freely admit that throughout this situation I was drinking too much and made myself vulnerable, but I have been suicidal at some points (not now) and just wanted to be numb through it and be able to sleep at night. When I saw my mum she told me a lot about how no contact had made her want to die (she's never hurt herself or attempted suicide or come close) and a lot of other controlling cliches like that, but I still feel guilty.
So now I'm staying with my paternal grandmother. She and my narcissistic controlling mother hate each other, and at first I thought it was because they were different, but now I see it's because they are pretty similar. My grandmother constantly comes into my room when I don't want her to, she won't let me go out for a walk or to the shops because I'm supposed to be isolating, and at one point she drove up in a taxi when I'd moved into my flat, put me in a car (I was drunk and paramedics wanted to take me into hospital, but she is very pleased she wouldn't let me go and get medical treatment for dehydration and withdrawal), went through my drawers, and brought me and my stuff back to her flat. She is constantly asking questions, coming in when I'm on private calls behind a closed door in the flat, I can't go for a walk without her wanting to know where I am. At the moment she is incredibly angry because I want to start spending time in my flat. She laughed at the idea that I might want to cook by myself because I don't want to cook with her. She constantly tells me I won't stay sober - I am sober at the moment - because I have been drinking in her flat, largely because I don't know anyone and feel so completely hopeless here. I don't even know what I'm asking, just that I feel like I'm out of the frying pan into the fire, I don't know if I'm in the wrong or if I really am unable to live independently, or what? She insists on talking to my doctors, case worker, HR person at work, and so on. I don't want to relapse and want to get on with my life, and she keeps telling me I said I would stay until Christmas but I really feel I'll do something drastic if I can't even have some time away. The latest thing is that she took my spare key - she lives 70 miles away from my flat - and got angry when I took it back because she wants to be able to get in. I don't know. I just don't feel I have any chance of getting better, even signed off work, when every part of my family is this toxic, but I don't even know if it's me that's the toxic one. Please help, I don't really know what to do.

@CeciledeVolanges That sounds really hard. Christmas is a real bastard time of year for all of us on the Stately Homes Tour.

Are you able to reach out to counselling services? Phone call to your GP as a starting point maybe? I'm sure others will be along with advice.

Thanks for replying Sicario. It was such a long and self-indulgent message I was thinking of reporting myself!
This sounds dreadful but I'm already under services, I have a case worker and I'm going to speak to her soon. This is just 24/7 and I'm finding it unbearable to live with, let alone the thought of Christmas. I'm getting maximum four hours of sleep with vivid nightmares here, and slept over in my own flat last night and had seven or eight hours of unbroken, dreamless sleep there. I'd really like to be there over Christmas, even though it would be lonely, I'd rather that then I could Skype each of my family members and have done with it.

Hang on in there @CeciledeVolanges

This is such a helpful and empathetic place to be with lots of shared experiences and heaps of support. It's certainly helped me a lot. Your post wasn't self-indulgent. It's your life. And it's real. Something about your post really worried me. Please remember that you can call Samaritans on 0845 970 9090 at any time if you are feeling really bad.

Cecile I'm so sorry things are so hard for you at the moment, can you go to your flat?

Thank you both. I gave Papyrus a ring earlier, I just had to get out of the flat so I paced around the common crying down the phone, and they advised me to go to the flat as well. The thing is I've just had eleven weeks of staying here and getting guilt-tripped about how ill she feels and how lonely she will be and being told I promised to be there at Christmas - I latterly did, but the original plan was that I would stay for two weeks in September! I can go to the flat but there's no guarantee I won't be followed up by my grandmother, her cleaner, my father, they could call the police, anything. Nothing that they haven't all done before. Between that fear and the guilt I could physically go but mentally there are so many barriers.

When I saw my mum she told me a lot about how no contact had made her want to die (she's never hurt herself or attempted suicide or come close) and a lot of other controlling cliches like that, but I still feel guilty
Cecile, please put that guilt behind you, as you know, your mother is just twisting the knife to be cruel.
How long till you see the caseworker, do you want to talk on here about the options that you plan to discuss with them?
After last night's better sleep do you feel any clearer, would a few more nights of better sleep help you to plan and make decisions?
(Apologies if I've misunderstood anything that was in your post)

eleven weeks of staying here and getting guilt-tripped about how ill she feels and how lonely she will be and being told I promised to be there at Christmas
oh lord, she wants to have a go with that knife too doesnt she
no guarantee I won't be followed up by my grandmother, her cleaner, my father, they could call the police
you have every right to make your own choices, I know it's easy for me to say I dont have a hoard of people ganging up on me and I totally get that the last thing you need is the stress of being doorstepped, but surely (in theory) you could equally call the police because of their harassment?

My brother has been at it again.

He was the golden child and has had a poor me victim mentality. My dad was the same and my poor mum had to pander and pamper them or put up with their physical/emotion/financial abuse.

He’s constantly berates/criticises me, normally for not visiting him enough. This is despite me working FT and have two small children. He never visits me. Lockdown was relief as I couldn’t legally visit him and therefore he didn’t constantly harrass me to visit him. With my first he was sending me abusive messages in hospital demanding I come and visit him with my newborn. Nevermind that I had forceps, episiotomy, tear, and a haemorrhage and was in constant pain and I could barely walk let alone drive 100 miles!

My crime this time is that I didn’t respond to a single message telling me he had passed his theory test. He is upset that I didn’t respond telling him that I was proud of him. He’s in his 30’s FFS. It’s doesn’t matter occur to him that I’ve been looking after a baby and a toddler in the middle of a pandemic whilst trying to take my employer to ET for forcing me out of my job shortly after I gave birth and trying to frantically find another job to keep a roof over our heads

I

Free3mee3 the only misunderstanding is that it's my grandmother rather than my mother - I thought my mother was the problem but it turns out that when she's not around my other family members are almost as bad :( although I feel terrible saying that. She has often been in the room or on the phone with my caseworker so I think I just need to talk to her about what's actually going on. More sleep would be super helpful but my main problem is severe PTSD, so I find it really difficult to sleep unless I have a door I can shut, I tend to sleep incredibly badly here and at my parents' house (although this is normally dismissed as a lie or an exaggeration. My grandmother will generally tell me I've had more sleep than I think even if I've literally checked the wall clock while I'm awake).

SlayDuggee I really empathise about lockdown making it easier in some ways. It's so difficult when people try to make you feel bad about things you KNOW are absolutely unreasonable. Someone half his age should be able to accept that people might actually have more important things to do than respond to a text! Keep focusing on the things that matter to you, it's not your job to prop up anyone else's fragile ego. Not sure if that's helpful!

SlayDuggee I know you have probably been trained by your entire family to pander to your brother but it is available to you to turn the tables on him. You can say to him that it doesn't work for you to visit him. And just repeat using different phrases. It doesn't suit me at the moment. I can't make that work. If he wants to see you, he can visit you much more easily than you can visit him but it's not about seeing you, is it, it's about holding court.

From the outside it's so obvious that he's being completely unreasonable but when you're caught in the FOG it's so difficult to even see it. But everyone on this thread gets it and supports you.

CeciledeVolanges I'm a bit concerned for you that your family are actually making your mh worse. Loneliness is tough to deal with but I think their manipulation and refusal to let you be your true self, have your own place to live, make your own decisions, even have your own room to yourself is even more crushing to the soul.

Try and get all the support you can to break away from your family and build up your reserves of strength. I hope you can get some really good counselling which can build up your internal resources and confidence and help you to find better coping strategies than alcohol.

Thanks Googlebrained. Unfortunately alcohol is only the latest in a long line of dysfunctional coping mechanisms which have arisen from being around my family, who are adamant that I actually need their "care" and control to improve my mental health despite the consistent decline I've shown over past years being dragged back there over and over again. I heard my grandmother ordering Christmas food over the phone just now (while I was tutoring undergraduates, something she is adamant and frequently repeats that I'm incapable of). I've driven away a lot of friends due to fears that I'm as toxic as them, and I'm sure I have unwittingly or uncontrollably repeated some of their behaviours, to my shame. I just can't believe I'm stuck here in the same situation with a different person after all this time. I know what I need to do for myself but the FOG is so strong! I don't know. Sorry everyone for going on at such length.