September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Sicario
Thanks so much. I’m glad you escaped from the MIL and are seeing the wood from the trees with your family. It’s hard to disengage from family in those situations you must be in where the guilt is piled on things twisted and massive gameplaying.

I think the Hag had an absolutely terrible childhood: poverty, violent father, passive aggressive mother, the expectation that she would be her mum’s servant after her dad died early, her husband dying early, bringing up three sons on her own in a rough area. THEN I remember that 1) her siblings aren’t like that 2) their kids aren’t 3) one of her sons e.g. Mr Monkey has become OK and 4) she had a fucking CHOICE. I can’t forgive her for the abusive mother she has been through her sons’ lives and how, due to our proximity this year, she’s decided it’s OK to treat me the same and play games.

MM has gone round to her flat to teach her to use her new blood pressure monitor. This will become a drama which I’ll try not to engage with. I’m just hoping she doesn’t use this as a game to play over Xmas to stop us going. Got my plan ready. If need be, we can take it on the Mon & Tues even the Mon & the 23rd before we escape so she can just do one. Now I’m more on top of her games, I can see her next step. MM is doing amazingly well, he’s not budging on Xmas after she had a massive strop a couple of weeks ago and refused to come to the one day we (grudgingly) offered her out of unappreciated kindness. We’ve decided she’s made her choice.

I’m so sorry to go on. It’s incredibly painful, but I’m doing much better as I’ve got a real clarity on her games. For all of us going through this, we need to remind ourselves how incredible and strong we are even if we don’t feel it all the time. It’s them, NOT us.

@Sicario I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s an outrageously vile thing that your sister did. OMG. NO WORDS. NO WORDS, AT ALL.

The last (and by that I mean final) time I had my mother here for Christmas, she said such awful things that one of my grown-up kids wanted to leave. I peace-made, they stayed, my mother said she wanted to take us all to the pub for lunch to say thank you. Then announced "not grown-up child and partner" they are not invited. While staying at MY HOUSE.

Fucking unbelievable. I can't believe I'm remembering all this.

I just have to write this down to get me through the next few weeks when the vile family will ramp up their provocation and manipulation. I am feeling v stressed, hyper-vigilant and agitated waiting for the seasonal onslaught. It’s the toughest time of the year and it goes on for weeks / months.

So my mantra:

Take the High Road.

Dignity.

Distance.

Detach.

Disconnect.

Distract.

Disengage.

Don’t be drawn.

Turn your back.

Holding silence is my ultimate super power - dialogue is what they want - anything at all will be enough for them to feast and chew on amongst themselves. I will not fuel and feed them.

I need to proactively busy with all of the nice radiant people in my life. Fill it up with fun, hope, joy, kindness and respect to systematically bleach out the toxic ones.

They can’t define me. I need to stop looking back over my shoulder second guessing their next manoeuvres as this is keeping me as an emotional hostage. I need to keep looking ahead to lightness, moving and keeping distracted. I need to be confident to KNOW I will never be in their toxic company again. The panic and anxiety needs to stop preoccupying me. It’s draining and debilitating.

Don’t blink.

silence is my ultimate super power
Sssloou, it is and there is nothing they can do to counter it.
If it helps maybe visualise the silence as a suit of armour/protective dome, it deflects any and all attacks, they will be wounded by their own arrows.
Each time they make an approach and are ignored their power dissipates.
even if you slip, dont worry, zip yourself back into the protective suit and you'll be golden....like the silence.
We'll be here to chat:)

@Free3mee3

silence is my ultimate super power Sssloou, it is and there is nothing they can do to counter it. If it helps maybe visualise the silence as a suit of armour/protective dome, it deflects any and all attacks, they will be wounded by their own arrows. Each time they make an approach and are ignored their power dissipates. even if you slip, dont worry, zip yourself back into the protective suit and you'll be golden....like the silence. We'll be here to chat:)

Thank you that really helps because often I feel that I am in a cage where they keep rattling and poking me and feel like I am going to crack up. But the armour is good - their onslaughts will bounce back and hurt them.......

You are all spot on about the silence. I took your advice and did not respond to the parcel-of-poison from my sister. I will, however, be sending a christmas card to my mother saying that we have moved away and that I will not be sharing my address. My last job from here will be to drop it in the postbox then get in the car and drive away.

Sicario

I hope that by now you have disposed of the package of obligation sent by your sister.

I would urge you to reconsider sending a card to your mother. Doing such is a response and to such disordered thinking of people that is the reward. You absolutely need to send no such thing to her; your mother and sister are two of the same kind.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - I do have to send the card for my own peace of mind. I have forgiven my mother for her violence and abuse. She knows what she did, and she knows that I remember everything. I have been LC with her for a long time, and this is the final step into NC.

I want to leave absolutely no doubt about that, and no excuse for my sister to try a number with "oh, we didn't know where you were so I had to find out and make contact with you because of [insert excuse here]".

@Sicario - they know you are moving (from your adult DCs) so you don’t need to tell them. They will probably already know where you are moving to - somehow they will have dug this info out of someone - so expect them to turn up, send gifts and attempt to trash boundaries - be ready for this.

What will you do when she knocks on your front door, attempts to go round the side, sits outside in her car. Mentally prepare yourself for that. (Hints - get a ring doorbell, don’t answer, put a lock on a side gate, inform her this is unwanted communication and she needs to leave - it not you will report her to the police).

I know the explosive feelings of visceral rage triggered by their antics followed by the retreat into feelings of shame.

But the rage is real and valid and is healthy to express and discharged in your own way in your own home - once the rage is processed in this way you are emotionally safe because you won’t be provoked into acting or showing any anger to them - that’s where the shame comes from because we have shown our loss of control / heightened emotion and we are exposed and vulnerable.

But if we accept that their disingenuous toxic antics will trigger us and cause hurt and anger BUT we will manage that privately and never show them what they want to provoke (any response at all) then we should be proud.

I am thinking of a musical advent calendar with all of their different manipulative antics on the doors and once opened some soothing music and golden light shines out with a grounding yoga pose / breathing technique or positive mantra of support.

I do feel like it’s a clenched jaw, white knuckle ride to get through this month and I have to work v hard to move out of this negative mindset with intrusive thoughts because it’s sapping any potential for joy. It’s controlling and defining me a lot of the time which means that my own children are not getting the best of me as I am so preoccupied.

Congratulations on the move by the way - is it far away from them? I am envious I would love to move so I had zero chance of bumping to them at the supermarket etc.

It’s early days for me - not quite 12 months - maybe it gets easier?

I would like some help getting back on track in my head pretty please! I've felt meh this weekend and I'm starting to question my own part in the craziness that is my FOO.

Sis1 and I will be exchanging Xmas presents later this week. We will be meeting half way and spending the afternoon together.
We were the best of friends until a couple years ago when something happened which meant I had to "speak out" it was regarding a safe-guarding issue and her step-son (long story). It was horribly awkward etc but it had to be done. I thought we would talk about it , address it and, as a family, move on.

What actually happened when we had 'the chat" my sister reacted weirdly (embarrassed/ angry/ shamed because this behaviour did not fit in with the perfect image of her family) dragged my son in to it (he had nothing to do with the situation, wasn't even there) and really upset him. I knew she wouldn't take "the chat" well and I sympathize with that but it still had to happen- my hands felt tied. Very soon after the incident I had an evening out planned, mother was going to babysit (this NEVER happens so I was excited) at the last minute mother decided she was too tired to babysit (as told by my sister to me in a post-argument fug) so I didn't go out, this felt like a punishment. (I then found out later that my mother had gone out instead in my place.)

After the incident happened I spoke to our other sister about it. Sis2 was "on my side" and made me feel like I had done the right thing, despite the awkwardness. Within about an hour of our conversation (and her speaking to sis1) she totally changed her mind and thought I had dealt with the situation poorly- this was the start of our sisterly dynamic changing. Sis1 and sis2 are very close now and I have been (felt) frozen out ever since- not by my mother as such but by my sister's and sisters wife. I have felt jealousy at times because I have felt "left out" (I know, I know I'm an adult ). My sisters didn't really have much of an active friendship before (although they were "good" sisters) "the incident' but I was friends with each of them and forever tried to bring them closer.

I think my feeling meh is because I don't really want to do this present swap. It was my idea and I regret it now. The reason I regret it is because I actually really want to "have it out" with sis1 once and for all and I can't. I have been made to feel a pariah in my own family because I spoke about a safe-guarding issue that could have become very serious.

I feel locked in. If I am anything but amenable then I am sulky/ sullen and acting out when in fact I'm just hurt and despondent. If I use silence as in the above messages I am sulky etc etc. I can't win!
I'm second guessing my self and questioning how I'm acting for fear of pissing everyone off.

Looking for reassurance please!

You are not ready for this.

You are vulnerable and feel emotionally unsafe. Listen to your body and your conscious and subconscious thoughts and feelings - if they are “confused” “unsettled” its a red flag - so stop and don’t do anything.

You don’t have to understand or JADE your feelings - it’s enough to know you are anxious.

Call it off.

Wanting to have it out is an emotionally dangerous place for you to be - it could go spectacularly wrong.

The deep frustration in all of this to know that you cannot communicate, compromise and acknowledge a way forward without volatile eruptions with these people because they are “difficult” and “intransigent” people. With other friendships or colleagues / emotionally normal and healthy people you can have an open respectful conversation.

Do you need to put yourself through it. It seems premature and emotionally charged.

@Sssloou It's far enough away to be a relief, and a place where there would be no reason (excuse) for any of my FOO to ever be there.

@LondonTowers I really feel for you. There's no point in trying to "have it out" with your sister. There is no "win" in this situation, because you cannot reason with an unreasonable person.

@AttilaTheMeerkat My mother is 95 and I have made my peace (with myself) about her. Hand on heart, I really did do my best to salvage a relationship with her, but I don't like being in her company, and I am now okay with that. She knows very well what she did, and I know that she regrets it bitterly. But the damage is done, and I'm never going back.

My sister has always been a fucking nightmare.

@Sssloou - If (and by that I mean when) my sister turns up on the doorstep, or I see her wandering around the location, I will not answer the door or engage with her. If I am forced to speak to her, it will only be to tell her to go away.

my last job from here will be to drop it in the post box and then getting the car and drive away
And when you've done it maybe do that thing with your hands, you know, it's kind of like a gesture where you brush off each hand with the other to indicate that you've 'washed your hands of all this'.
And the 'cage', if you can do some visualising in your mind or maybe drawing on paper... Previously you saw yourself as being in a cage that they had supplied and and imprisoned you within, destroy the cage and replace it with protection of your choosing which you are in control of.

Made to feel like a pariah because I spoke out about a safeguarding issue
Imo, his is scapegoating, they are not prepared to admit that they could ever have done anything wrong (because that would be to take a subordinate position and their egos can't tolerate that) so instead they have to position you as the person in the wrong.
As I said there is no point in trying to have it out with them, that just tells them that you are upset or angry about this, it gives them information about how to make you more upset and angry... how to control you and keep you in the position of pariah.

Hi Sicario

re your comment to me:-
AttilaTheMeerkat "My mother is 95 and I have made my peace (with myself) about her. Hand on heart, I really did do my best to salvage a relationship with her, but I don't like being in her company, and I am now okay with that. She knows very well what she did, and I know that she regrets it bitterly. But the damage is done, and I'm never going back".

What did SHE do though to salvage a relationship?. Probably next to nothing and has probably also used your nightmare sister to get back at you further. Such people often never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Where is her remorse?. Does she really know what she did and regrets it bitterly; I ask only as you're saying she does. It could be argued you would like to think she does because the alternative does not bear thinking about. She may well be 95 now but her great age now is no excuse. Such abusive people really do not change. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and likely enacted out on you what was done to her. She made a choice to abuse you and made you the scapegoat for her own personal ills. This type of dysfunctional toxic abuse can and does go down the generations but it will go no further in your own family unit and that is to your credit.

I would still urge you not to send a card, you do not owe her anything now let alone any sort of a relationship.

I hope you find real peace when you do move house, hope that all goes well too.

LondonTowers

What the others have suggested; cancel this meet with your sister. Cite D & V or something; do not go!. No good will come of such a meeting and her presents too come with their own side dish of FOG to boot. You are not emotionally safe enough to be around the likes of her either. Do not put yourself through it, its ok to change your mind.

It's a doozy of a set-up. My mum is not from the UK, totally different culture, she came here on a visit and accidentally got knocked-up hence marrying my dad. She hated the situation she found herself in, and in her culture, boys are adored. I had violence from her and from my brothers. My sister did not experience any of this. She is much younger than me.

I put in a lot of effort with my mother because I felt very sorry for her. But then I started getting a world of shit from my sister, and I threw in the towel. I am pretty certain that my sister has emotionally unstable personality disorder.

My mother will never be happy. Nor will my sister. Peas in pods.

By being quite clear about not sharing my address, I am drawing a line with no room for interpretation. I AM OUT.

I think your mother and sister are two of a kind really and scarily similar to each other.

People can be abusive regardless of what culture they are from; it is still no justification for their actions and she made you the scapegoat for her inherent ills. The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

Again, best of luck with your house move.

Totally agree with you, Attila. They both have a shocking nasty streak. My sister has fallen out with so many people, but of course it's never her fault.

I have a very long fuse and I will always remove myself from a situation rather than say something I might later regret. I suppose because I put up with so much bad behaviour in the past, nobody expected me to pull the shutters down.

I'm entirely comfortable with my decision, and while I wish them all the very best, I don't want to have anything to do with any of them.

Going NC with family is a very hard thing to do. I don't think anybody makes a decision like that lightly, and then putting it into practice was far more upsetting than I had bargained for. I suspect men might find it easier, as they are generally less conditioned with FOG.

I concur fully Sicario.

Going no contact is very hard; its been described as a type of bereavement for good reason. Its never a decision made at all lightly.
I often advise that people need to grieve for the relationship they should have had rather than the one they actually got.

I think men born of toxic mothers can become mouse like or revert to child like mode in their mother's presence. Such women more often than not have a too willing partner to help them; this is often their husband.

Over the years I have seen many examples of men on other parts of MN not being at all able and or even willing to stand up for both their own self and their family when their mother is variously kicking off, wanting her own way or is crying on cue/at the drop of a hat. Appeasing such people as they often try to do does not work. These men can be mired in FOG too along with their own inertia when it comes to their parents and that hurts them as much as their own family.