September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks London yes absolutely crazy making! Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll look into it.

Sicario I keep getting drawn in too, I was starting to feel a bit more human and then this. I know it's an error in my perception but it does feel like every time I feel like I'm making progress something like this happens and drags me right back down again.
Can you just get rid of the present at a charity shop or similar? Not that that makes it any less hurtful or rage inducing!

I had made my peace with mum never being in my life or acting like a mum should and now I just feel guilty because she is ill on top of the regurgitated anger and upset from before.

My sister is driving me nuts and I just wish she would be there to support me instead of turning it into a "you only have one mum" type argument. I guess she is the flying monkey type but I just don't know how to deal with her.

I feel so stupid and childish because I just feel like I'm wailing "why doesn't my mum love me" bloody ridiculous really. Before I stopped contact with her I told her I thought she was being a bad mum and she said "well you've said I'm a good mum before so I'm going on that" Usually when I would say she was a good mum it was because she was upset and I was trying to reassure her. In reality there have been things that she has said/done/not done that made her not a very good mum but you don't just come out and say stuff like that because it's hurtful! I just tried to live my life on the basis that all parents are trying their best and because they are human they make mistakes. Some mistakes cause huge scars though but I never said anything because she'd only get upset.

Clearly I am not as important as the preservation of her self image and I just want to be able to shield myself from the hurt of that.

Sorry *Free3mee3 I must have cross posted with you.

I'm trying to be forgiving to myself about my anger (its' a lot better now thankfully!) at the time, I was very very ill and my reactions were all over the shop, it was either sob for hours or get really angry with emotional blanks in between. I understand where it came from and time and distance from my exH helped reduce that.

Anger has always been something I've tried to keep a good firm grip of because my dad (and sis1) was a big shouter! He was scary with it and sometimes would say very hurtful things. I learned that words are more hurtful sometimes than hitting (he never hit) and so grew up very careful of what I was saying so I didn't inadvertently hurt someone. When angry I was always extra careful because I know what raging at someone does.

I don't really have anyone I can talk to about family stuff, just immediate family members like sis1&2 or my niece and nephew who are too young to talk to even if it weren't inappropriate to talk to them about all of this. They have good relationships with their grandma.

Sis1 really hurt me when exH started seeing the one that got away after we separated by getting in contact to see "if I'd heard about X?" I said no and I didn't want to know, I had blocked him everywhere and didn't want to know anything about him from that point forward because I knew I would only end up hurt.
To which she said "Oh well I understand. I just thought you should know he's in a relationship with Susan (not her real name) now"

I was really upset and cross with her for telling me even though I had asked her not to and told her why. She doesn't seem to be able to help herself but why on earth would you do the very thing that someone has identified would be most upsetting to them?!

It's a dilemma, isn't it? I really really don't ever want to hear from her again, and the stuff in the post does my head in. It's always just a piece of shit dressed up as a gift, often with a passive aggressive note.

There is another layer in the mix right now too - I am moving house, which she knows (via our grown up kids talking), and I will not be sharing my address with any of my birth family. I want a fresh start, and she is the kind of person who would turn up on my doorstep with a bunch of flowers as though she is innocent as pie. Then the whole awful cycle will start again.

So I will sent the package back marked "not at this address'. I just want it to stop.

@Doowninthedumps - so much of what you say really resonates. My mum was terribly violent and highly critical. My sister is much younger than me and never experienced the violence and anger I got - I protected her as a child. I now see that my sister is cut from the same cloth as my mother and it's a shocking realisation.

Funny how I only really saw this for what it is quite recently. I'm pretty sure my sister has a personality disorder. It can't be easy for her, but I'm totally done being the scapegoat and family punchbag.

They don't seem to have got the hint, and I really think I need to draw a line under this and spell out the FUCK OFF AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

Then she can feel all injured and no doubt slag me off to the whole world again. But hopefully the shit in the post will stop.

I don't know. It's a work in progress... At least we all have each other to talk to on here.

Woke up early this morning in such a sweat I thought my waters had gone (I'm 31 weeks pregnant) having had a dream I told my parents exactly how I felt. In my dream, they reacted exactly how I expected the to, "if that's how you feel, that's not our fault" and i just looked them in the eye and said "actually, that's exactly what it is". I think packed all my old things from their house that I wanted to keep and took it so they couldn't try with the "but we've still got this here for you".
The odd thing was, as horrible and stressful of a dream as it was, I felt liberated at the idea of them having no hold over me, no reason to feel I have to do anything for them or to please them. The idea of having it out in the open how I felt, no matter what their reaction, made me feel fresh almost.
I woke up hearing ds groan (his usual wake up sign). Usually dh would get up with him, but I wanted his cuddle this morning. So I got up, got ds up, warmed his little hottie and cuddled up to peppa pig with him. It took all my stresses away. Kids are bloody brilliant like that

Sicario

Please do not send this back. Radio silence from you needs to be maintained

Sending it back is a response and that is the reward to such disordered of thinking people.

Dispose of said gift via a charity shop

Ignore the flying monkeys, they are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinions should be ignored. Engaging with them at all brings pain

@Doowninthedumps
You are in the right place. Your mum sounds a nightmare - no wonder, you feel confused and hurt by her actions. The problem with dysfunctional families is it’s hard to speak out within them and about them. You’re right to speak out and to feel the way you do. You will find lots of lovely people here with similar experiences who will listen.

Monkey

re this part of your earlier comment that I missed replying to:-

"My other favourite bit of Xmas is her not wanting presents “don’t worry about me”. I now spend next to nothing with as little thought as previous presents thought out with care are stockpiled in her spare room (years and years worth) unused. It’s better to use a ragged towel dated from 1078 rather than some nice towels from House of Fraser. I have NO idea what this is about. When she was in hospital, I went into the room and took out some toiletries and put them in her bathroom, she was really angry and moved them back. WTAF is that about? Power? Rejection?"

Yeah, all that and dominance. She wants to be showing you that she is in charge re the bath stuff. My MIL would have behaved similarly in such a situation (that is also why I never brought her anything when she was in hospital. Not my circus etc).

Don't forget that these types take meanness to new heights; for instance one year my DH (bless his socks) was trying to think of what to buy his mother for Christmas. So he bought her a new tote bag from Fossil and matching purse. I've only ever seen her use that bag once (never the purse mind you because she is truly as tight as a gnats arse!) since and I know for a fact its not readily if at all used even now.

Downinthedumps

You absolutely belong here.

Its not your fault they're like this and you did not make them that way.

Best thing to do with flying monkeys is to ignore them. They are not interested in hearing your side of things at all and have their own agenda. Ultimately I think, you're going to have to lessen all contact levels with all of your family of origin going forward to zero sum. Your sister is a carbon copy of your mother and they will never give you peace as long as you at all engage with them in any way shape or form. Drop the rope completely.

@MonkeyfromManchester god that present stuff really resonates. My mum are the same. "Oh don't worry about me" don't spend anything. And when I do none of it ever gets used.

I felt liberated at the idea of them having no hold over me
It is very very liberating, and I think for the most part achievable
focus on dropping the rope, not responding, walking away, maybe if the person is especially difficult or dangerous you have to back away
even so, work towards freedom

Sooooo mother calls. Usually her calls start with "when will I see you next?", obviously this was the case today too. I'm not good at being pinned down. She said she was hoping to see us today or tomorrow as she is away for a few days. I said it would have to be next week because I am busy tomorrow (I saw her on Saturday gone) she said ok it will need to be next Thursday or Friday and that is too long away anyway= "I won't have seen you/ grandkids for aagggggees" usually I take the flack, feel guilty, give in and squeeze something in on the day I'm busy. BUT today I said "mother, going 1 or 2 weeks without seeing someone isn't ages, I saw you last Saturday" (baring in mind she works and I have a few commitments too)

I know that some adult daughters and sons can't go a day without seeing there parents and would think that I'm being unreasonable- my mother certainly thinks so. I, however, think once a fortnight is ideal. I am pleased I didn't justify or explain (eg I am on a course tomorrow mother, it is atrocious weather to meet outside etc etc).

I am hoping I will keep the guilt goblins at bay later today

They don't seem to have got the hint, and I really think I need to draw a line under this and spell out the FUCK OFF AND LEAVE ME ALONE
@Sicario, totally understand the impulse that makes you want to respond like this, BUT (imo) you would be giving them far too much information, they did 'get' the hint, but you telling them what you want also tells them exactly how to fuck with you.
This response would tell them that you are very angry/upset, very rattled and that makes you easy to control and manipulate, this response will draw them to you.
I say, be completely cold, give nothing away.

@AttilaTheMeerkat @Free3mee3 you are both absolutely right of course. It just PISSES ME OFF so much. It will be eating my sister alive that I am moving - she will be wanting to know every little thing and of course wanting to see the house. I am not sharing my address, but I'd bet my last 50p that she'll be interrogating everyone trying to find out. Hence trying to wheedle her way back in.

To use that wonderful mumsnet phrase... fuck off to the far side of fuck then fuck of a bit more.

God I'm so angry today. Must keep busy and push them out of my mind.

@LondonTowers - I would get the same from my mum before I went LC/NC and it got to the point the thought of seeing her or speaking to her just filled me with dread. She beat the living shit out of me as a kid, yet I went along with the dutiful daughter expectations because of the FOG and feeling sorry for her.

Total madness.

Now she is old and frail and I have my sister screaming at me about "doing your duty". I am SO done.

It will be eating my sister alive
I'm thinking she craves information about you because she cannot bear you to get above or beyond her in any way?
If you wanted to you could really wind her up and mess with her.....still, better to never wrestle with the pig, all the other pigs will pile in and it's difficult to keep them all under control.
Tell her nothing, freeze her out, let that boiling anger turn into a cold sword 🗡️
use it to cut the ties

@Sicario that resonated with me. I'm going lc with my parents but I only made the decision a month ago so in the midst of "what have we done" and guilting me.
I'm sticking to my guns and it's nice to know others have been in the same situation. I'm trying to do it before I get the 'its your duty because we are elderly' as they're only 60 now

As if moving isn't stressful enough already!

Anything to do with my family of origin actually makes me feel physically sick. It triggers the most awful feelings. I actually started trembling yesterday at the sight of my sister's parcel. That's the thing that's making me sooo fucking angry right now. I want to lash out at all of them and smash things in an unreasonable manner.

Or I could just go for a lunchtime glass of wine with extra crisps.

I'm trying to do it before I get the 'its your duty because we are elderly' as they're only 60 now
@Pearsapiece, in many ways I think this is the fair thing to do, send a clear message now they should make preparations for their later years, so that they understand the need to downsize at the right time, make sure they live close to the facilities that they will need etc.
Don't let them carry on thinking that they can just do nothing and then 'fall' on you when the time comes

I got so deeply sucked in that I actually built an extension for my mother - she and my sister watched me do it, right down to the furnishings, before my sister announced that my mum shouldn't move after all and would be better staying in her own home. It cleaned out my savings. Every penny. By the way, did I mention that I have MUG and PUNCHBAG tattooed across my forehead?

My sister doesn't work and lives out of mum's bank account. (As does her DH who is her main narc supply and a total shit-stirring arsehole.)

So glad we're selling up and moving. I can't look at that extension without thinking WTAF.

@Sicario @LondonTowers @Free3mee3 it never ends. It’s not enough for them to be abusing but they can’t let go, can they? It’s like a bloody challenge of a very sick variety.

@AttilaTheMeerkat and ANYONE wrestling with the annual fun and games with Xmas and Xmas presents lavished on us by our dysfunctional “loved” ones. It’s about the ultimate day of control and us daring to snatch it away.

The Hag is horrible about presents. Or anything.

When she was in hospital she was whining about having no PJs. I’m not surprised. Jesus, the embarrassment of her clothes.

She has TWO pairs of Sloggi knickers which she got when my mum forced her to go shopping. She was too mean to get more. And now complains.

I’m sure the hospital staff etc think we’re shit but past caring.

We got her PJs which she wore at our house when ill as I refused to let her wear the same old thing all the time. I washed her clothes.

It’s not like she’s unhygienic generally, her house, although looking like a squat, reeks of bleach. She never stops cleaning. I have NO idea what that’s about.

I think I’ve really pissed on her chips by outwitting her as she has to ask in a perfunctory manner about me to Mr Monkey in the daily phone call But it’s through clenched teeth. She’s stopped asking about my mum (PA and bitter about Xmas and realising that yes, I’ve grassed her vile behaviour so she can’t play the “nice old lady” game) despite all the things Mummy Monkey does for her.

She moans throughout the phone calls - NOTHING is positive. I play moan bingo. It’s great. I am no longer on the calls.

Yesterday’s news about the vaccine elicited the best bit of narcissism I have EVER heard.

Mr Monkey: Wow, great news about the vaccine.
Hag: It’ll probably be next year when they get round to me. (She’s over 80 and has multiple health conditions) Typical. I’m always last in the queue.
MM: but great news. You’ll be able to go out.
Hag: I won’t even know what a supermarket looks like locked in the house all year. I never go anywhere etc etc etc
So, how effective is it?
MM: 95%
H: well, that’s not very good
MM: I think it’s great so do the scientists
H: what’s taken them so long?
MM: it normally takes 10 years
H: I’ll probably be in the 5% it doesn’t work on.

Absolute corker!

I wonder how many of us are going to be subjected to some kind of dramatic family sudden emergency situation over the Christmas/NY season? We could have a sweepstake.

@MonkeyfromManchester : "pissed on her chips" is my new favourite phrase.

I love this thread - you make me realise I'm not going mad. My mum uses present giving as a weapon and will demand that I tell her what everybody wants (whilst flexing that money is no object to her). If I dare suggest she could use some of her endless free time to have a think herself she says that I'm so much better at it than she is. She never gets me what I ask for but usually something completely useless or clothes that are too small. She asked me yesterday what to get the elderly relative I'm currently caring for. When I said I had no idea as I was too busy working, taking relative to doctors, doing her shopping, homeschooling kids etc she said she had spent a fortune on my kids presents so I need to tell her what to buy relative. It's exhausting and so predictably dull. Brother still buys presents for my kids who he hasn't seen or spoken to in over 4 years. He drops them on my doorstep in the middle of the night so he doesn't see us. My mum thinks this is proof that he is a decent human being (not a complete weirdo) and that 2 presents a year constitutes an uncle/nephew relationship.

@Sicario YES. I love this idea of the Stately Sweepstake. 12 days of Xmas. We could also play fucked up cliche bingo. Who’s in? Laughter helps me or I’d sit down and weep. “Pissed on her chips” is a great Mancunian phrase (I’m adopted Manc)

@TerribleZebra this strand keeps me sane and many of us. The freaks should be banned from going anywhere near Xmas and leave the fun to us. The guilt of money! The Hag does this. I don’t give a fuck about her leaving us any money. As my late dad said “no pockets in your shroud so you might as well spend it”. Your brother has inherited the Xmas gene and hides behind things.

The Hag moans about not seeing her grandchildren in Scotland but never phones them. Monkey Mummy has hosted them at her house a few times which is a darn sight more chilled out. MM is very tactful about it and the Hag comes as well. My mum ends sleeping on the sofa bed! Instead of engaging with her grandsons she sends them a ridiculous amount of money to demonstrate her love and then MOANS about it FFS. The run up to Xmas is fantastic.