September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

justaworriedsister
your parents appear to have no boundaries at all, are they a bit dim?
I would just assume that anything you tell them will be broadcast to all and sundry according to their whims and tell them nothing
also communicate this to your sister!

@Free3mee3
You are bang on. And you are right to listen to your instincts. My parents were keen for us to do our own things, get our own lives. One sibling lives abroad, one in London and I’m the nearest. My dad is dead and mum just very happily gets on with her life, massive social life, doesn’t expect anything, is happy her kids are happy. The contrast with The Hag’s attitude to child rearing...

Mr Monkey comes out comparatively well out of it compared to his older brother. BIL is in his early 60s, is disabled and has been her servant for years. Takes her to the supermarket every other day, medical appointments, the lot. He’s like a chauffeur/servant. He hasn’t had a holiday for years and is unmarried. The first sniff of a female friend and she’s on it. Expects a phone call twice a day. Not a lot to say during lockdown. Lol.

She even has a problem with Mr Monkey and his brother going out for a curry. They do this twice a year, she’s split them up.
“Oh, so I’m not invited”.
“You don’t like curry.”
“We could go somewhere else”
BIL suggested KEEPING THE CURRIES A SECRET. We told him that we cannot do that. He is an adult.

Now I’m exposed to her more frequently by being in her bubble, and pre-lockdown I was weeping on my friend’s shoulder in a packed restaurant (I never do that but I’d been driven nuts - I have bipolar - as The Hag had been at our house for five weeks after being ill) and with my friend drawing the narcissist abuse circle for me, all the jigsaw pieces have fallen into place.

I’ve realised she doesn’t like either of her daughter in laws. We have wrested the control from her. We’re both feisty women - my SIL is from a culture where family is everything but hints that the Hag is weird. I don’t know this for sure, but when SIL had her first baby, The Hag went up there and came back after a month (!) and I think SIL pushed back. I wonder whether living up there in Scotland was something she suggested. She suggested living with BIL. She dropped hints about staying here longer when she was ill.

The Hag is in our bubble so we see everything now.
“Oh, servant son (insert name) can drive and pick that up for you”.

For a pint of milk, the supermarket is a TEN MINUTE WALK FOR US, he’s 20 minutes away by car FFS and it’s hard for him to get in and out of a car.

Staggering.

Xmas is now sorted, going to my mum’s, hag has said “she won’t be bothering as she’ll just be a trouble to you all”.

YEP. YOU GUESSED IT. YOU ARE TROUBLE TO US ALL.

@LondonTowers your mum has definitely spotted you redrawing the map and is getting the tank regiments ready for your sister and her girlfriend. And then there will be some divide and rule...

You would hope that your mum might reflect on why this has happened, do a bit of self-reflection...

[quote MonkeyfromManchester]@LondonTowers your mum has definitely spotted you redrawing the map and is getting the tank regiments ready for your sister and her girlfriend. And then there will be some divide and rule...

You would hope that your mum might reflect on why this has happened, do a bit of self-reflection...[/quote]
yes we would hope but, self reflection for her🤷‍♀️
... It will just be a case of reaffirming her belief that she should have everything that she wants
There are no further depths for her to look into.... That's all she got

doesn’t expect anything, is happy her kids are happy
I think this is a key thing, my stance towards my children is as you say, I want nothing from them I want them to have lives which are fulfilling and happy.
It seems to me that my parents resented anything I had which was more or better than what they had, they could not tolerate me transcending them in any way, they want to keep me in a subordinate position, I'm expected to serve them.
With the volatile angry parent it's easy to spot what's going, but with the other one, the calm one, the one you trust...it takes much longer to see that they are actually cold, calculating and strategic
you have been stitched up.

@Free3mee3
Self-reflection - of the true kind - is LIGHT years away for them. They just bestow guilt on their children and others around them.

Their version is a form of SELF-ROT where they seethe on how life has dealt them a cruel life.

Your kind of parent must have been really puzzling - it’s hard to put your finger on that kind of behaviour.

That’s terrible about your parents not wanting you to have a good life and being independent of them. And brilliant that you’re not visiting that legacy on your children; this stuff can pollute generations.

Apparently, The Hag had a terrible abusive childhood. My therapist made me howl - she started laughing too - when she asked whether The Hag had ever had counselling.

Fuck me for flipping fucks sake!!!

Could it be that I am completely and utterly surrounded by sodding narcissist- traited assholes??

This is a SERIOUS question.

I thought maybe 1 or 2 in like a 100, sure, the stats stack up- but could it be an epidemic? I find it sort of fascinating from a distance but close up, looking at my interpersonal- familial relationships, I'm absolutely overwhelmed. I'm really trying to extract myself from the games and the bullshit and I am also trying to take responsibility for my involvement, my enablement, and at the same time trying not to take full responsibility...

Its exhausting keeping the "must be me, I'm the problem, I am difficult" demon from banging on my door.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thanks for posting about DARVO which I'd not heard of before. I've just spent the weekend watching it in action with my mother.

I'm feeling particularly tired and sad today having spent the weekend with her and my brother. Coming onto this thread has been so educational and it's almost as if these days I can stand back and observe what's going on, predicting what will happen next. I always thought my brother was the "golden child" but watching how my mother manipulates him I see him as an emotional torture victim too. In the end she drove him to lose his temper and shout at her which (he told me after) left him feeling utterly guilt ridden and upset. The silly thing is though it was as if afterwards she was quietly content with the reaction she'd provoked.

One thing I find especially difficult is that she claims to do everything out of love. It's not a nice kind of love though, it's an all suffocating controlling love that smothers and leaves you feeling like a monster if you try and defend yourself in someway.

@LondonTowers. I understand when you write "Its exhausting keeping the "must be me, I'm the problem, I am difficult" demon from banging on my door." I've just read through what I wrote above and I'm sitting here now my mind going over and over about what a horrible bitch I am and how mean minded I am, maybe it's me who's the selfish narc.

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes, thank you for your explanation!

@Ieatmarmite I do hope you don't succumb to that demon today I read a bit of P Walker CPTSD book last night which helped immensely- it reminded me about flash back and triggers and I feel that I start internalizing (eg like you- am I horrible bitch/ selfish narc) when I have, somehow, been triggered into a flashback and I start looking for clues and becoming analytical when I have been hurt or triggered. That's my interpretation anyway! Perhaps the book can help you too?

Sending you love and marmite today xx

She claims to do everything out of love
I believe there is some 'sleight-of-hand' occurring here, humans are able to form emotional attachments, emotional attachments to things, to people, to abstract ideas to anything really.
Whilst we may call those attachments 'love' that doesn't mean to say that they are loving, 'love' can slide over into wanting to completely possess and dominate, and then crush and destroy when the object of your love will not obey you.
In the end she drove him to lose his temper..... afterwards she was quietly content with the reaction she provoked
she enjoyed the fact that she has the power to make him lose his temper, she has reaffirmed her dominance and control over him

@leatmarmite, I'm hoping that you have an ally in your brother? That between you, you can understand and process your mother's behaviour and the effects thereof 🙏

@Free3mee3 THE DRAMA THE DRAMA

@Ieatmarmite
They love the provocation. Your brother probably gets the hot / cold treatment. Maybe, you get the cold treatment more.

My MIL could have a row with a wet FLANNEL. it’s more being the centre of attention, it’s more eliciting of guilt, it’s more drama. The 84 year old HAG recently lay in the corner of her living room like a TODDLER screaming because Mr Monkey offered to move some furniture. It’s not dementia, she’s now on the phone being as sweet as pie.

So in the lead up to Christmas my NC mother has been at it good and proper. Pulling out all the stops.

Background, live in UK, parents in Australia, we have had our first child, a lovely girl.

I try and facetime them weekly but its tough with a 6 month old who doesn't sleep, time zones and working full time, she even complains at that not being enough.

So today I get a message saying. You are all so blessed to have DD, and "And yes you are all so blessed , Leila is beautiful and we only have contacted if you allow it, you have the power to take it away, just say the word and we will be gone". And then used my dad's illness, which I know little about until she needs to win a battle...

She then asked me why I'm so hostile, and I couldn't control myself, so I sent her "my list" of things she had done in my childhood that contributed to our bad relationship. Most of which she tried to gaslight, and says she will show my dad so she can figure out whats true, and that she'll wait until after his cancer scan, and hopes "I am comfortable with that"

Anyway now I am getting the silent treatment again. Even after giving her my well thought out list, I still feel bad. Why! I should feel weight off my shoulders.

Hi balihai550
it's all such a headfu(k isnt it:(
if you can try to accept that they are constitutionally unable to take you seriously, I wouldnt respond at all to any of the guilt trip stuff, maybe just say that there is no need for her to 'figure out what's true' because you know that all of it is true.
Ultimately the silent treatment is a blessing....over time you get used to it and realise that life is much better without them in it

@balihai550
That’s a LOT to deal with. Absolute winner on the guilt trip. Hugs to you.

Balihai

Your mother will merely disregard and or ignore any boundaries you care to set her. I like the bit in your mother,s message about “we have only contacted you if you allow it”, well you did not ask her to write. It was unsolicited contact from her.

The best response is no response from you at all, the response you sent here merely played into her hands. Anything, no matter how carefully worded, will be seen by them as an attack and they will respond accordingly. Toxic people like your mother and her enabler of a husband like nothing more than a fight and or the last word. Communication with them also keeps a door open that should be closed.

Stop with the weekly FaceTime as well, at the very least start gradually reducing the frequency of such calls. You have physical distance, put far more mental distance between you and they now.

The only people that tend to bother with people like your mother are those who have had special training ie the now adult children of same. Drop the rope completely, she will only continue to tie you up in knots otherwise. It’s not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. Read up on DARVO as well.

Her silent treatment of you is a further example of emotional abuse as well.

I would actually now block all ways of she being able to contact you, no good will come of her contacting you anyway. Radio silence from you should be maintained.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I have the special training most definitely. Years of it. I am so afraid I'll end up passing it on to my baby 😢

[quote balihai550]@AttilaTheMeerkat I have the special training most definitely. Years of it. I am so afraid I'll end up passing it on to my baby 😢 [/quote]
You have self awareness/insight and the support of others who also have self awareness/insight.
You can break the cycle.

Interesting reading on the DARVO theory, this really hit home with me.

I'm now on day 252 of NC with my narc father, he's made a couple of guilt tripping attempts to reach me via my stepson (which I hit the roof at but have covered off with him) but there is no way he will have the emotional capability to ask me what's wrong. This will be manipulation and flying monkeys all the way now. we've not had particular words, but his behaviour at the start of lockdown was the last straw for me after horrendous behaviour from him in the past.

One question, I'm assuming that it's best to totally grey rock the situation now, not even send a xmas card? I'm torn on that one, a very sterile xmas card indicates low contact but nothing overly major to talk about so we can slide into the background, but on the other hand if I send one it's giving the impression that there's a civility between us. I know I will get one from him and probably an unwanted gift

Dolly

Do not send a card; no good will come of doing so and doing that as well resumes contact. Radio silence from you needs to be maintained.

I would also bin any card you receive from him and take any unwanted gifts (which are themselves loaded with obligation) from him to a charity shop. Again these items if received should not be at all acknowledged.

thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat. I asked for a gift to not be sent last year but it still arrived, if I can intercept it this year and refuse delivery i will! I suspected that just no contact whatsoever was the strategy to go with. I've also restricted his view on all of mine and the family's social media hence him starting to message the kids (teenagers) now.

I like the idea I read earlier about setting fire to a card to ensure that the bad feelings are lit up and smoked away. I'll do that if one turns up

Name change in classic MN style
I just need some perspective so I will try to keep this as short as possible. Dad (dead) was a narc, mum (alive) enabled him. I went NC with one brother 4 years ago after decades of his appalling behaviour which was constantly excused by my mum with "you know what he's like". Mum hates that I did this and I'm going to be brutally honest - I like the fact it upsets her so much. It is a horrendously childish reaction on my part and upsetting her wasn't the reason I went NC (just an unexpected bonus) . The problem is I am now partially caring for Mum (shielding) and another elderly relative. This is exhausting. Mum is now repeatedly saying well if you were speaking to brother he would love to help. Point is my Mum speaks to brother as does other elderly relative so they don't need me to facilitate a conversation, (other brother lives too far away to be practical help in this situation). NC brother isn't working at moment due to gigantic cash gift from Mum (£200k). I couldn't care less about the money (which also hugely annoys her as she uses her wealth as a weapon) as DH and I are happily solvent and not reliant on her. The problem is in my Mum's eyes this is all my fault and so she is happy to keep putting on me despite the fact my brother is much more time rich than I am. Do I just grow up and start talking to my brother again just to make my mum shut up? Either way it's going to make me miserable so it's trying to pick the least worst option. I'm also a bit shocked at how much pleasure I've derived from not doing what my mum wanted me to - and realise this is quite an unhealthy stance to maintain. I have a fab therapist (but not seen her since March) and a lovely DH and DC so despite everything I'm usually quite content now, which has taken years to achieve. So have any of you resumed contact with someone just to shut other family members up and has this worked out for you?

I agree, complete stonewall, make no response whatsoever.
Returning to something in Atilla's previous post:
Drop the rope completely, she will only continue to tie you in knots otherwise
There's a reason we instinctively reach for this rope metaphor, because what is being offered IS a rope and the purpose of the rope is to tie you up, constrain you, bind you to them, worse still to hang you.
Drop the rope and walk away.

Zebra
You don't need to grow up, you're already an adult, it's your mother who is trying to trigger you back into child mode .... Because she wants a subordinate who obeys her.
why are you caring for your mother? She has plenty of money she can pay for her own care, it's terribly insulting for her to give money to your brother who is abusive and expect you to care for her.
You've been stitched up!
No you don't have to talk to your brother I would start freezing your mother out too, stop letting her control you.