September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@AttilaTheMeerkat
Thank you. I must admit that is what i hoped.
The bit I'd like to write is strictly speaking about a friend, I guess, but it's from age 15 so all mixed up with family & 'that time' too.
I'll draft something (otherwise I'll do pages and bore even me!) & prob post tomorrow as kids home now. I am so glad I found this space as I'm needing somewhere to listen to others and speak too about setting boundaries, even at my age - I seem to be at a point of change

@Ihaveyourback thank you. Much like you I've always loved to travel and went off on my own as soon as I was able, I'm lucky to have been to a number of places- it's the best therapy I know! I've travelled a lot with my young family too but of course covid has but a bit of a stop to any adventures for the time being.

I was young when I first went travelling and I remember really thinking how nice it would be to be free from the crazies at home and yet I missed them terribly. I guess being more restricted in the places I can go means my other main therapy is learning and working and the introspection I have been doing over the last months has led me to see that perhaps I didn't have as much control over my choices as I thought I had. Who knows! I've been with my husband for 10 years now but before that I was single for sometime, I know some people struggle with that but I didn't really.

I think you are right, I'm in a place where I am learning about me, I'm doing therapy reading the books, doing the workbooks so I'm bound to be introspective. Like you I am, as you put it, wrestling from mothers shadow and, even when I was half way across the world, I was still very much a part of that shadow it has only been the last couple years that I have found this enmeshnent a bit suffocating.

May I ask do you still have a relationship with your mother?

Tonight is the zoom call. Tried ringing brother this afternoon, no answer, so texted him saying "nothing urgent, ds just wanted to say happy birthday. Oo and I won't be able to make the zoom call later, sorry"
Reply came back "why no zoom later". I must admit, I wanted to say I don't have to give a reason but for the sake of saving an argument I said I was picking dh up from work late.
I feel liberated! I just know it's a terrible idea for me to join that call right now. Why would I want to sit there while 6 other people make me the butt of the joke and lay into me on a Wednesday night?! I'm planning to stick my favourite podcast on, get the Xmas fabric out and make a start on some Xmas face masks.. I've even bought myself a mini Xmas cake to really congratulate myself (I am pregnant and Xmas cake seems to be a favourite for this baby!)
Now just to turn my phone off come 7pm so I don't get bombarded with "where are you?" "you're being childish" messages

why no zoom later
Pear, I see he's very quick to demand that you account to him for your choices, I see this as a dominance move...speaking as if you are obligated to explain yourself to him.
Maybe next time make a slight adjustment to your reply, eg change to 'I've got too much on'
time after that just say you wont be on the call and dont engage with anyone who tries to make you explain yourself to them.
Slowly slowly back away but never back down, make sure you hold onto the gains that you make

I wonder if your brother ignored your call pear because he is irritated you won't be reeled in again. No one gets to 'demand' zoom calls on their birthday. No one. If your family and friends message you then that is good enough!

He doesn't sound like a very nice person, and certainly is not going to give you an inch. Very much in mother's camp I am afraid.

Turn your phone off, and have a lovely evening making masks and tomorrow when you turn your phone on again, whether there are messages or not you were perfectly within your rights not to be part of a zoom call! (I have never done one they make me uncomfortable)

Do you have lots of help and support (outside of your family) lined up for when your baby arrives? I find that vulnerable stage in my life difficult to navigate when I was feeling fragile and so tired.

Hi london I wasn't suggesting you haven't travelled or explored your character, I am sorry if it came out that way. Slightly mortified if it did. The only thing that worked for me was solitude in finding the 'compass', nothing else worked. Even solitude is hard work because we are programmed to be worried about our parents and responsible.

You are right that one of the worst things is being 'left at sea' with no compass, no direction - and no guide. Just cast out and alone for a while, the sizeable responsibility of life on such small shoulders. I wish I had parents that cared about where I would end up too, a lovely learned father that could sit and show me the map of life. A mother to teach me all of her skills. Alas I had to learn the (very) hard way, with many ship wrecks before I could finally feel as if I had some control over the steer - and some idea of where I am even going. Even now I have moments of how did I end up here!! I am 45...so I know that feeling well too.
You sound extremely well educated, and you must have the world at your feet in many ways professionally speaking - I wonder if we hold ourselves back? Believing still that we are never good enough? Maybe with a little more time you can find something that is truly rewarding.

I do have a relationship with my mother of sorts, it is a very low contact one and it is all I can manage. I have tried NC but it caused me more harm than good (or maybe I am just not ready) I keep everything as light as a feather by text, the odd call every blue moon and I am gentle but have great boundaries in place now (for me anyway) I never tell her anything that is important - I can't bear for my life to be entertainment/attention seeking fodder for her afterwards. It works for me. It is the best I can do, it is all I want to do. I may see her twice a year. I am having significant therapy, only just now. Very much wish I had done it before! I have the most wonderful, highly skilled lady that is saving me from myself bit by bit.

@Free3mee3 you're right, I'll remember that for next time. I felt I didn't want to give an excuse and I didn't need to, 'I've got too much on' would have been more than enough

@ihaveyourback you are right. He is in mother's camp and has arranged this zoom meeting to try and get me to engage with my parents again, which I don't want to do and I definitely don't want to be tricked into or forced to do.

DH and I are very private people and when ds was born, I didn't want help from anyone outside our little bubble because many of those who did help just annoyed me when they did.
I have a great relationship with my in laws who are all lovely people. I know I can call on both my sil's, my mil, my step mil and my fil if I need to and none of them will make me feel bad for it.
I'm glad I'm doing this before dc2 is due because when ds was born, I said I wanted a few days as the 3 of us to get used to things. My mum and dad didn't respect this and kept ringing me to see when they could come round. When I finally invited them round (3 days in) they said they couldn't come round because they were going to a friends for a curry to celebrate ds's birth... They'd not even met him yet!

My mother has been in touch again by text.

She has discussed me with all her friends (of course she has) and decided I am mean and unfair (suprise)

And if she can't look after kids for me and sister this month, she will look after neither (which is fine by me, I suspect sister will be enraged), but this is my decision, I am putting her in the position to choose between us and she won't (how virtuous she is)

In about 10 days it's gone from something nice offered to me, to a stick to beat me with, and a way for DM to get out of doing any childcare support for a month (convenient), so I'm worse off than when she started.

Just reading it has thrown my mood out of kilter when it's taken me since the weekend to calm down. That's the bit I hate the most, the effect on my mood. I feel so angry, and thrown into the past long gone and past hurt.

I'm gutted I left Dd's bike at hers as means I will need to go collect it soon and I don't want to see DM. I think I'll go during the day when DD is at school and just try to get in and out quick.

Ihave your therapist sounds great, how long did it take to get to that point and how long have you had to be LC to get to a better place yourself?

@Ihaveyourback oh gosh no, you didn't come across like that at all! Just agreeing with you, perhaps it's me not coming across well Thank you for your reply, I can relate to much of it. The travelling thing is an issue for me as we were supposed to be living away in europe for a year prior to covid and, of course, that hasn't happened which, at the time, felt a real loss- it also coincided with the time I started to feel there wasn't something quite right with my nearest and dearest....the trip would have really helped I think!

Although I have studied a fair bit i am very stuck or so i feel. What use are qualifications if you aren't comfortable in your own skin, like you say we probably hold ourselves back a bit and I'm really hoping a bit more therapy/ self learning is going to help.

Whilst I thought there was something troubling about my childhood it is only fairly recently that I've been able to identify the issues as abusive behaviour, I think having my own children helped with that, the fact that my kids will always have a consistent champion in me and I could never ever call them anything hurtful made me think.....er....wtf....this is what parenting looks like then it's all a bit raw and I swing from anger/ bitter/ loss to guilt for feeling this way... i hope this a normal part of the process and I'm not just a self centred cow.

@Pearsapiece well done sticking to your guns. Zoom sounds like a nightmare I really hate having to explain myself in the way you have had to... being forced to tell fibs. Its damn irritating.

I'm so proud of myself. It sounds so silly but not joining this zoom call because I didn't want to is the first thing I've ever done to stand up for them. I feel amazing for it, like I've chosen my own path for this evening. I made 2 Xmas face masks and listened to 2 podcasts and had such a nice evening the way I wanted to! Thank you all so much for your ongoing support, you have no idea how much its helping

Good for you @Pearsapiece... you'll be providing loads of happy hormones to your baby too which is a bonus!

@YesSheCan not that you've asked for careers advice but thought it might be helpful- Facebook has a group 'Alternative careers for doctors" you may already belong. Plenty of doctors, many unhappy, some branching into the arts etc. Might be useful :)

Thanks @LondonTowers that is helpful! I've looked at the website before but didn't realise there was a FB group too. Just joined

The first thing I've ever done to stand up to them
I think they will be BLINDSIDED Pears, you did it cooly and subtly whilst acting completely normal and not breaking your stride
I reckon they'll be like rabbits🐰 in headlights👀
unable to process what's going on🤭

.... Although if/when they do catch on they may feel an urgent need to try and put you back in that box
So be prepared just in case
forewarned is always forearmed🤫

@Free3mee3 I'm ready for it. I know the next thing will be them being overly nice in the hope to, live you say, get me back where they want me. Then once I'm there, they would just go back to not listening and treating me like shit. But I am not going back to that stage. I will not be put back in their box

tinyFive years more or less LC. The same as london once I had children of my own I could not see my own parents or childhood in the same light. When my father thought my children were fair game for the same abuse we stopped seeing them. I did of course give them second chances, but he can't himself and is what he is. So I am effectively NC with my father and LC very loosely with my mother. It works very well for me, it keeps the guilt in check (that I shouldn't have anyway) without too much exposure to them. I admire those that can go completely NC I found it too hard personally - although I should be NC.

I found a psychotherapist that specialises in childhood trauma and PTSD. I had four counsellors before her that were ill equipped to deal with my stuff, and just did not have the skillset. Having the 'right' counsellor/therapist is absolutely key in my experience. She has already made such a difference.

It takes a very long time to realise something is very wrong with your family, it takes even longer to identify and pin point the actual problems with precision - then you have to deal with the damage. It takes a very very long time to work through. Personally I have found it tough. The loss and a sense of bereavement for the parents that I never had, that never existed was the worst part for me. It was agony and one I could not share with anyone else. I would have sounded mad to say I am grieving for the parents I have lost - even though they are alive and well. So it is a silent grief and one that can make you feel very alone.
Once you know what happened to you is very wrong, you can't unknow it, so we have to deal it head on.

I am not at the end yet, but I am definitely on the right road. Gaslighting is single biggest thing that holds us back in my view, the confusion that is sows. I always now ask myself 'would I do that to my parents or someone else?' and if the answer is no, it is more messed up behaviour on their part.

sorry for the typos I am in a mad rush. London I will reply later I am not doing the posts much justice :)

@Pearsapiece
You did something HUGE by not taking part in the zoom thing: HUGE.
Well done! x

@Ihaveyourback

"The loss and a sense of bereavement for the parents that I never had, that never existed was the worst part for me. It was agony and one I could not share with anyone else. I would have sounded mad to say I am grieving for the parents I have lost - even though they are alive and well. So it is a silent grief and one that can make you feel very alone"

This really resonates for me.
My actual Father died when I was 12 weeks old (yet no one told me) but I wasn't allowed to be legally adopted by my 'Dad' (yet I was sent to school in his name, not allowed birth cert) so Dad stuff is a mess. My Mother is still alive but was unavailable to me (except in an abusive way) since my Dad died (she had a breakdown and never really recovered). So, in most ways, I am already orphaned, though the people I grew up calling 'Mum and Dad' are in their mid 80's now. Odd.

Of course, my mum tried to contact me today, the day after the zoom. Her route in was a classic, offering to buy us stuff. She wants to talk about Xmas gifts. Tried to ask her what she wanted to know over text but she's insisting on a phone call.
Then when I just said "ill have a think and let you know" she followed with "are you OK" to which I just replied "yep, all good".
I'm no where near ready for a phone conversation with her. This whole thing has occupied my mind for 2 weeks straight now. I'd usually have given in by now but I'm not this time. I need to move forward

Well done again @ Pearsapiece

It's the mental energy it consumes isn't it?

I woke at 3.30 this morning and typed out a long text to someone involved in my FOO mess. Only after I'd done that could I get back to sleep. I'm now shattered, with the kids dinner to prep and no let up till about 9pm. Gah...! But, this is US - our authentic voice. It matters !

Here l am again glutton for punishment Bit of backstory.
My sister, has hold of all my Mum's money she doles it out for her, she ALWAYS leaves my daughters money (for looking after her) on the dining room table. The past 3 weeks my sister has left my Daughters money, away in the bureau, 1 week it was in a wallet , 2nd week loose with the wallet hidden in the bureau , 3rd week in the wallet . We thought it was very odd and that some drama/smearing was in the pipeline. Never said anything to Mum about the money being in the bureau because we thought my sister wanted us to mention it to her to pour scorn on us about being childish, so we shut up. Today my Mum says 'sister asked where Daddy's wallet was' so l said 'oh l have been expecting this from her. Explained about the monkeying around with the money for my daughter and why we hadn't said to her . Turns out my sister is on about another wallet that was in my Dad's coat, containing £200 pounds. I didn't know anything about this other wallet but apparently it holds great sentimental value for my sister because my sister bought it for him. Well it seems it has gone missing but am l wrong to be smelling a rat and that this was a set up from three weeks ago. I had the most awful row with my Mum. l said we felt under suspicion of taking the wallet because we are the only ones that go there. My Mum couldn't see that though oh no apparently sister said how honest we are but in that l see her spreading doubt . We ascertained that there was no money in it after a lot of delving with Mum because sister had paid ppl for work Mum had done and my Mum remembered that . Also my Mums boyfriend Bob, who she lives with, said without prompting, that he remembers my sister putting money in it from a lottery win (Mum has carried on with Dads lottery in the local Pub) 4 months ago . My Mum agreed that this had happened . I am ok with my Mum now but it really upset me that she couldn't see how l felt under suspicion. I wondered what you all think ? So when l said l wish l hadn't attended the row l really wish l hadn't but l felt under suspicion of theft. I have on a recording, my sister taking my Mums purse in to her and there was no change in it , she said to Mum then 'Madevans wouldn't have taken it' but the end result of it all after much discussion between them was that my angry Mum said about me 'l want my money l am going to ask madevans where my money was?' The money was in her tissue box by the side of her chair, Mum had counted her change out the night before put it back in her purse and left the zip open. l couldn't believe my eyes it was smear campaign and manipulation done so smoothly right before my eyes. Unbelievable!

@Pearsapeace you did great well done !

@Pearsapiece well done! Saying no to something is such a big deal when you have family like that. It's a bizarre thought to think normal families would be like "can't manage? No big deal, talk later" but not for us lot. It's their way or the highway.

So good job!!!