September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Sssloou brilliant post that I must return to every time I'm feeling like beating myself up. Thank you

Yes how bizarre. Can you make a formal complaint, I don't know much about data protection but you might be able to say your own personal info has been falsely given, and state you don't give the bank permission to hold or use your data? Put in writing and even copy to Information Commissioner? Others on here may know whether that would work or not.

@Ihaveyourback

thank you for your two posts directly above.

Yy to the intermittent validation parent - WAY harder than the straightforwardly abusive one.

But also interesting what you say about friends. I have, in the last 4 years, got in touch with 3 old boyfriends (all from decades ago). All 3 were initially delighted to hear from me and it was lovely to catch up.
But all 3 have gone 'skewy' on me. Ugh. I can put it up with it, or lose those friendships (as they have NOT liked it when I've pointed it out).
I guess I need to let them go, but it's hard if you are isolated (which I am). I will try to see it as making space for better, healthier connection.

@Ihaveyourback thank you, wise words:
"The pain was pretty intense but it did not last, it was slowly replaced with a touch of pride, self respect and relief too."

Evening all. I posted last week about my controlling parents and how I had hit a wall with them and the way they treat me and that I need to reduce contact.
It's been a week since the incident that tipped me over and mum tried to call me on Sunday which I let ring out and didn't answer. Then she texted me on Monday saying she hadn't heard from me and I didn't answer her call. My reply was "we are all good, nothing to report". I didn't want them worrying about us and felt that message didn't warrant a response or engagement in conversation.
I've now been invited to a family zoom call tomorrow evening for my brothers birthday. This brother is not one to 'get the family together' and my mum will have told him about the incident last week. In fact I know she has as my sister told me she has.
To start with I thought it was a nice idea, then I actually thought about it and realised its a way of trying to get me to engage in conversation. Every time I see or speak to my family at once I'm used as the scape goat and they just mock me and talk over me. So I have no intention of joining this zoom call which will be difficult because of how I've been made to believe I must please them.
I've also started the route to councilling today but there is a long waiting list. I need to do it though. More and more I'm realising how shit they are to me and I can't let it affect me any longer

Well done you. You're already along the pathway to recovery as you can see through their pathetic actions. Stay strong.

If you feel you want to call your brother separately to wish him a happy birthday, you are busy later and will miss the zoom call. Don't mention your mother, and if asked everything is fine.
Or text, a voice message is also a good option, which means you don't need to engage with any of your family at the moment.

Doing things on your own terms, in your own way so that you are in control is a good move. Your mother may crank things up in the coming days so it might be worth being prepared for that. You have a flying monkey coming any minute now. Perhaps your sister or your brother telling you how sad your mother is. She is not sad for you though, only sad for herself. It always pays to remember this. If she was sad for you she would be apologising in a meaningful way, and it would never happen again.

Whatever happened with the incident it was enough to make you feel violated and sad, and that is enough. Stepping back is something you need to do for you. Your texts are excellent too, not room for drama there. Well done pear

Thanks @ihaveyourback sometimes I just need confirmation that I'm doing what's right for me and I'm not wrong to do that.

@Wellhellyeah -

what I struggle with is that, even when I can clearly see the replaying of wonky interaction from FOO I still struggle not to re-enact it.
So, 'Friend' 1: stayed over at his place in Jan. Left some hand luggage by mistake inc my whole make up kit which I cant afford to replace. He was going to return it when he came to visit mine to do a (paid) job for me. Now, I get lockdown etc but he's just not bothered replying to any messages. I know this sets off my bells as my Mother literally pretended she couldn't hear me when I tried to talk to her about the abuse. So, I persisted. I finally sent a message saying: 'Please return my stuff inc make up, to XX address'. Message read, no reply.
But, why did I bother ? - he's had 9 months to post it after all ... :(

The 2nd one has used some graphic sexual language (in the guise of 'helping me by chatting about the abuse'. Its not okay as I called some boundaries about it. He said, in our last text: 'I am ashamed of myself'. But, I feel the need to reach out (I've managed not to so far).

The 3rd one is basically my Mother AND the abuser in one package.
The only way with that one is total NC. But it's hard.
Yes I am lonely (I am a single parent to two disabled children, no support, often don't speak to another adult for a week at a time)
but it's like the tainted crumbs thing - I KNOW it intellectually but I struggle to put it into practice. I have some success but I should have more :( Sorry for the down-er post.

So I have no intention of joining this zoom call which will be difficult because of how I've been made to believe I must please them
Stand firm Pears!
(we'll be happy to coach you if you have any moments of weakness!)
Maybe keep a log of what happens?
Without you to dump all the bad stuff onto the others will have to 'own their own shit' etc, they dont want to and they are desperate to lure you in so you can be the whippingboygirl and they can carry on feeling superior.
Dont back down, you can do it and each time it will get easier

I KNOW it intellectually but I struggle to put it into practice
the way I see it....the intellectual part of our minds is but a thin beam of light inside the vast dark cavern which is the unconscious mind, these things have been deeply programmed into us, they are our 'default' setting, it takes huge effort to overcome them, celebrate the success that you have had.
i'm in my 50's too, it's taken me decades to figure things out and I am still waking up

Thank you @Free3mee3 the first few times will be the hardest but I can't go back to how they've been treating me, I just can't do it. Its so difficult because I've been programmed to believe I am worth nothing more than the ways they put me down. But I am

@52andblue yes totally get the intermittent validation parent being harder to deal with than the straightforwardly abusive one - it's because their treatment of you is inconsistent and the abuse can be insidious and disguised as love so difficult for others to recognise that anything is wrong. And your comment 'I KNOW it intellectually but I struggle to put it into practice' - I think this to myself pretty much every day! Guess we have to train the healthy self-conpassionate parts of our brains, in the same way we have to exercise to stay fit, (and I'm very unfit with no exercise routine, haha). It's really hard to do and so easy to lapse into unhealthy self-critical ways of thinking and seek out then get upset about really unhealthy relationships when we're under stress. And that 'friend' who is blanking your messages and refusing to send your belongings back - wonder if we know the same guy!!! Jk, I'm sure there are plenty of arseholes to go around

@52andblue
"I have some success but I should have more sad Sorry for the down-er post" give yourself more kindness. You have successes. That you alone have earnt, and probably earnt hard. Every single one is a victory to be celebrated. Your Foo will try to diminish you, please please dont do it to yourself*
*so much easier to say than do though I know

52 That sounds really hard. Your children and the demands of your life at the moment. Are you able to branch out and make friends with others? Is there a group/club or even a support group you can join?

It strikes me that you need more of the 'right' sort of company and support, people that care and understand - and are not your family.

You CAN do this on your own, with some focus - it would be easier for you with the help of some friends. I would work on this. My friends (and their parents) got me through my childhood, and early adulthood. Family should be there for us, but many aren't. Friends can be your chosen family

@52andblue @YesSheCan
The thing you say about intermittent validation makes sense to me. When I first went to therapy I thought that I was 'mental', periods of depression and anxiety and bouts of borderline behaviour.... when i talked about my childhood all I could say was things like "it wasn't too bad, it was a bit inconsistent I guess. Sometimes abusive and fear inducing (because of my father) but always inconsistent with my mother blowing hot and cold." I am starting to see from an intellectual point of view (it no longer being just a feeling that something wasn't quite right but having evidence from books/ therapy etc that a childhood that isn't consistent almost always guarantees a burdened adult) that inconsistent parenting can be pretty traumatizing in itself with or without the additional trauma of abuse and living in fear.

Don't want to redirect the conversation of the thread but it definitely relates to inconsistent parenting. I have heard stories of the impact of such an upbringing on interpersonal relationships and the like but I am really keen to hear if anyone has experienced unease (despair) around there career choices/ choices of education (due to said inconsistent childhood). My theory is if you don't know who the fuck you are at your very core then you may make career and education choices that aren't a good choice for you.

I take full responsibility for the paths I have chosen in life but feel like I've been navigating without a compass or a map for the last...god knows how long...

I have friends who are very happy with their jobs and aspirations- the happiest people seem to be the ones who are settled/ comfortable with their current situation even if they are not where they want to be 100 percent at that very moment.

I look at my career path and it's like, woah, I've got 3 degrees in unrelated fields and I'm like hell what the actual fuck. It has been a slog to get an education because I was not set up to achieve in this way (as a child and that is) I think, thats probably why I wanted it so bad (academic achievement) and yet, I'm lost, like I paddled out to sea and someone stole my bloody oars (I'd really like those back please). Having studied for years through poverty and all sorts of crap I arrived at a place where I didn't fit in. I resented the people around me and the boring and arrogant trite of academic discourse and, still being poor but with the additional pressure of a young family, I decided to extract myself from that world and try a profession (and as is necessary these days, another degree) thinking it would be more meaningful and consistently paid (I guess it's the latter but definitely not the former ).

And here I am, in a profession I semi-hate, not living in poverty anymore (yippee) but not in the slightest fulfilled (apart from my lovely family).

I would just love to hear if anyone has any insight into feeling this way or similar experiences.

xxxxx

@LondonTowers unease around career choices - YY. But not for the same reasons as you by the sound of it. I was high achieving academically from the get go, my mother called me gifted, genius etc and talked to her friends in front of me about how wonderful and clever I was. I got used to praise for my academic achievements and felt distressed on the occasions when I did not do so well. Based my self-worth on getting straight As. When I got to about 15/16 and had to make A level choices, I wanted to do Arts subjects. I loved art, took sketch pad everywhere I went, got 100% in Art GCSE, my mother told me how talented I was. But then bullied me into taking science A levels and applying to do medicine. Because I 'didn't have the right personality' to succeed in the arts, was too like my father (they had marriage problems and my dad attempted to leave when I was 12 (my mother hysterically screaming, lying on the hallway floor and grabbing at his ankles trying to stop him walking out the door) but came back the next day and stayed another 7 years, during which my mother made me her counsellor and shoulder to cry on about how awful my father was, how terrible her life had been and how badly she had been treated by her family, how her previous relationships hadn't worked out etc etc. So got very upset if she told me I was like my dad - afterwards I'd go to my room and smack myself in the face because I'd hate myself if I was like my horrible father who had upset my mother so much. She used her perception of me being like my dad as her most powerful weapon to justify why I should follow her choices and not mine. Because she knew best (and I used to believe this well into adulthood). I stuck it out through my A levels and medical school because I didn't do giving up or failing. Even though it was really I struggled with chronic fatigue on and off from age 16/17 and still do to some extent now. I have had numerous lengthy absences from work due to generalised anxiety disorder amd chronic fatigue. Although I care about doing a good job for my patients when I am at work and sometimes enjoy aspects of the job, it is not what I wanted to do and not what my brain is suited to - I find a whole day of face to face dealing with other people's problems exhausting and have arrived at a point where if I can manage work, I can only do so for a couple of half days a week. I had to go self employed several years ago as my unpredictable health related absences made it impossible for me to hold down a contracted job. I've been too exhausted by the health problems and the stress of living with my mother up until 2 years ago to enjoy doing the things which help to keep me sane like my art, music and writing. Since covid, as a self employed doctor I've actually struggled to find any work and my existing bookings were all cancelled. Financially it's been very challenging....but....it's given me the space to figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life and I've begun painting and drawing again with a view to selling my art online. It probably won't provide enough of an income to support DD and myself and I'm also looking into additional professional training to allow a sideways move from my current professional area to something that I'm better suited to, but it's very fulfilling to work on something I love after all this time. It's hard not to feel resentment for the years I've lived following a path I didn't choose for myself (or chose under massive manipulation) but I'm trying to practice self-compassion and acceptance

'Even though it was really hard and I struggled with chronic fatigue...' that should say

@YesSheCan I am very pleased to hear you are reigniting your enthusiasm for art, whilst it must be really stressful being a self-employed doctor I am glad some good has come out of a difficult situation.
I'm not a doctor but do know a few- it is a very engulfing career, it must be hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes. I'm glad you are getting a bit of space now.

Like you I have based a lot of my self-worth on grades and achievements. Unlike you though I don't think my parents cared and certainly didn't help me in this area however they quite liked the glory when I did achieve and my father would take it badly when I didn't (hence the inconsistency issue I alluded to in my first post).

How is your relationship with your mother now?

@LondonTowers I went NC with my mother just over two years ago. Mainly because she was emotionally abusing my DD as well as me and had taken over my parenting role, undermined my parenting and told my DD I was mentally unstable and she should go and live with her. Life is so much better without my mother involved. But my DD has developed depression and anxiety, possibly partly due to developmental trauma, and we are both dealing with the legacy of my mother's toxicity and will be for some time yet. Hopefully my DD will grow up to be a happy, fulfilled, well-adjusted adult bit she has years of batshit abusive behaviour to recover from and I have to forgive myself for allowing it to happen (was still zombified and under mother's control for much of DD's younger childhood)

I'm sorry @YesSheCan what a terrible time you've had and dd too but with a strong and informed mother, like you, your dd is sure to thrive so try not to beat yourself up.

You'll be a great role model whatever career you end up in, all the more for showing your dd that being true to yourself is one of the most important and authentic ways of living and probably the route happier times. Good luck! x

I felt extremely lost after childhood, given the need to be my Mother's extended shadow, I had to first wrestle away from her and then secondly to go and find out who the hell I was without her.

I would strongly recommend, if it is possible to spend a few years by yourself - which is what I did. I travelled and was single for nearly ten years. In that time I got to know me, my strengths, my wishes and dreams. All of it. The good, the bad and ugly. It was then easier to make good career choices, relationships because I was 'whole' well as whole as I am ever going to be! This is much harder to do if you are married or have children, but not impossible. You will need to build in time for self exploration - on your own, and this is key. No influences or thoughts. A pilgrimage of your very own.

I did suffer at the beginning some pretty bad depression, but really that was due to the abuse not the journey. When you spend enough time to be able to see the woods from the trees, and you are no longer being gaslit, you have amazing clarity to see how shit it truly was, how far away from normal it was - and indeed in the cold light of day it is quite a lot to deal. Nonetheless I made outstanding decisions after a great time of reflection thinking about what mattered to ME. Not my parents, school, friends and society in general. What were my values. I did not dwell on the loss of childhood, or the pain or the violence. Only on the core self. It was not a pity party for one well now and then maybe...and actually by then I felt I was well deserving of the pity to be honest, so was progress and self compassion and my needs finally coming first...

Time well spent. Good luck london

Can I ask if it's okay to discuss actuall / potential responses to wonky behaviour on here? (inc friends as well as family) or if it is more of a general support area? (I'm kind of hoping it's both I must admit)

52

Yes of course. I see this thread and all the previous ones as you describe. There are certainly no "oh you cannot write about xyz on here".

As Ally90 wrote:-
It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Write what you wish; you only need to give your own self permission to write it. Its fine also to write as much, or equally as little, as you wish.