September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh wow, thank you for your message op
Oh my god I felt like my psychologist was speaking to me, the wisdom and advice was so good thank you. She is out of action due to illness, so I can't discuss this with her. So I plucked up the courage to post on here, as I can't sleep for worrying about this.

Yes my brother is the golden child you spotted that correctly! My mother of course is an officially diagnosed narcissist, and my father a psychopath (a real one) so the road has been very bumpy, and I am finding everything a hurdle - as most of us do in this position.

I am totally okay with my dc being protected, and I am able to comfortably do this. How do you get around the bloody guilt? I grew up being told I had to accept/be nice in case they died, and I would not be able to live with myself. So guilt and manipulation was a huge part of my life, and even now I feel responsible and guilty for not seeing them at christmas. I am actually thinking I may never see them again and panic. I am working on this, but how do you get rid of the FOG?

Does it eventually fade? With enough therapy you manage it? Or do I just have to live with it?

How do other survivors of childhood abuse get around christmas, birthdays and all the rest? I can NC my father, but it is much harder with my mother.

Ihaveyourback

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. The only people that tend to bother with them are those who have received special training i.e. the now adult children of such dysfunctional parents.

It is indeed to your credit that you are protecting your children from them; you need to do the same re your mother as well. I would certainly lower all contact levels with her going forward.

The websites Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and Out of the FOG could well help you no end.

Thank you I will look now. I love this thread, what a brilliant idea - most of us find it impossible to talk about in RL

Ihave yourback

re this part of your comment:-
" and even now I feel responsible and guilty for not seeing them at christmas."

Why is this?. You have stated they are going to see your golden child brother so they will not be alone. Try to add logical rational thought to every emotional thought of Fear, Obligation & Guilt. You feel like that likely because of their conditioning of you at their hands since childhood; you were in their eyes put here to serve her/them and to put your own needs and wants dead last.

They installed those FOG buttons in you and they now need uninstalling; this process will take a long time and there is no quick fix.

Learn all you can about personality disorders.
Get yourself a support network where you can discuss things that concern you without feeling judged.

Work on setting Boundaries that will help you escape the feelings of helplessness, hopelessness and powerlessness. Your mother won't like this though, you've been basically raised to not have boundaries and she likely sees you as an extension of her.
Try to add logical rational thought to every emotional thought of Fear, Obligation & Guilt.
Try to substitute "what really works" for "what feels right" when you are making decisions.
Promptly remove yourself from any emotionally abusive situations.
Protect your own self from these people as well as your children.

Okay so I love that website! DONM - Thank you - it was hugely informative and helpful.
You don't have to, but I found a wonderful small necklace to remind me that I am on the right road now, and how far I have already come.
It is going to be my talisman. Thanks for your help op!

** you don't have to buy anything but I found a wonderful necklace.

Your update crossed mine!

Yes 100% I know the guilt is misplaced and totally illogical. I started using boundaries around ten years ago slowly, and she went nuclear. Demanded that we must not away, we were ruining her life, she would die of sadness. The full works that did not last for a few weeks, but years and years - she loaded as much as she could to try and get me back under her iron fist. It did not work. She resorted to silence for months, cruelty and more. Nothing worked. She slipped into a terrible depression which was my fault because I had left her, then a nervous breakdown - I held out. Even when they made up health problems and at the time I believed them to be genuine. To try and extract myself from her was the hardest thing.

She described my new boundaries as a 'bereavement' this was before I knew what she was, this was before I knew what had happened to me. It was only afterwards on MN did I finally learn the truth, and later with my therapist I am now getting proper help.

I am going to try as you suggest, I will recognise the flash points - and promptly become crippled with guilt that I am not doing enough, and I will be sorry. I then come to an agreement with myself about what I am or am not prepared to do.

Facing up to it all has been by far the hardest thing that has happened to me, and I have not had an easy life. My Dad's violence and emotional abuse and total absence of love was nothing compared to recovering from the more subtle but deadly manipulation of my mother and her so called love for me.

You are right she has christmas covered, why then must I feel anything? But it is right there, the pit of dread that somehow this is her last christmas, and I must make her happy at all costs.

"But it is right there, the pit of dread that somehow this is her last christmas, and I must make her happy at all costs".

But that is really your FOG rearing its ugly head again, that is her conditioning and the buttons she installed in you. Your mother will never be happy because she is an emotional void; she has made the terrible choice not to love.

Work on setting Boundaries that will help you escape the feelings of helplessness, hopelessness and powerlessness. Your mother won't like this though from you as you have already seen. You have been basically raised to not have boundaries and she sees you as an extension of her, not a person in your own right.

Ask yourself this too. Would you have tolerated this from a friend?. No you would not have done so.

Sss thanks I'm going to save that somewhere, very useful to re read

Spied I could have written what you did about the church, about sitting listening to my mother play the victim talking about how bad I was, how hard working and put upon and poor her she was. Word for word in parts. Part of the reason I find it hard to even be around her is until quite recently she still told people in front of me, how difficult I was. When all I can remember really is verbal and physical abuse and otherwise being alone. She has never acknowledged it.

I am sorry to say I did tolerate all of this from friends as well, because I literally had no idea about boundaries, none. It took decades to work what they were and how to use them I am embarrassed to admit. So for a very long time it was open season for all kinds of people.

You are right I need to recognise the guilt as not belonging to me but simple manipulation by my mother to do as she wants.

I have been programmed to do her bidding.

This is the mother that turned up to my wedding in a red wedding dress, it is going to take some time and still has the photo not of me and my husband but of her and me!!!!!!!! If that isn't messed up I don't know what is!!

Not all abusers are "nasty" all the time because if they were no-one would want to be with or spend any time with them had never thought of it like that but this makes total sense.

Can really relate to the Christmas guilt thing.

tiny I understand about being called difficult, it is very hard to challenge that label, and almost impossible to counter it but a few things worked for me. ' I was not difficult mother, you just found parenting a real challenge' putting the responsibility back on to her.

Of course you were difficult you were trying to become a whole person, you were difficult because she could no longer/was finding it harder to control you. Thank goodness you were difficult, and not entirely lost.

@Sssloou I can't tell you how powerful your post was for me. Thank you. At this moment it is such a source of comfort and guiding light. I've posted here under many names and I've found wisdom and comfort in equal measure but your post has been particularly resonant to me. I'm coming to terms with realising that when I put a tiny boundary in place, that was enough to sever the charade of motherly love. With the help if an excellent therapist, I can see that - like others here - I have repeated the imprinting many, many times. I'm strugglingat the moment with realising that the few 'friendships' I have are carbon copies and I need to jettison them. I am resigned to that. I'm really scared about being without them though because I kniw i just don't know how to make healthy friendships or friends. Your comment 'If we don’t have these types in our existing family / friend group - then we need to actively find them - we don’t need many - one of two would be enough.' made me determined to ditch the toxin, but also scared - how do I get/find/make these friends? I'm trying to keep positive because I still on average can expect a good 20 years but I will admit to being scared and a bit lonelyif I'm honest too. Thank you for your post though, I will take emotional sustenance from it.

Thanks for the understanding responses on here to my first post. This will probably sound bonkers but... I've been doorstepped by my mum twice in a week...she was talking then crying and came with a list of demands/ requirements from my dad mostly. Today when she rocked up I basically told her i don't have time for all this and im not dropping everything to deal with yet another problem dad has fabricated or created by meddling (things like emailing ex husband and claiming to make demands for return of items on my behalf (totally unbeknownst to me.fun)
; saying i needed to sort an insurance policy that was still in my name/ they had received bill letters for... I phoned the company they hadnt). When she said this was all in my head i listed 5 things that have happened in the past year alone which were undeniably dad trying to rattle me and stir/ control. She tries to justify it all with lots about how misunderstood they are and how they care, dad isn't 'like that' (violent) etc. Argh. Last time i said no to something outright both parents literally parked outside the house until i had made phonecalls for them there and then (long story). For hours.

I said no today and am waiting for the inevitable blowback. Im so at the end of my tether and trying to hold it together for my kids. Feel like an absolute monster speaking to my mum the way i did this morning... I didn't really hold back. I just cannot pretend any more that this is ok or manageable but i worry I'm the unreasonable ungrateful one. I don't want my kids to grow up thinking its normal for granny to turn up crying though. On days like this with tricky family how do you guys keep your head and know which way is up?!

You aren't unreasonable at all. You're not ungrateful. You're putting up a perfectly reasonable boundary. Think of a person you admire - what would they do in the same situation? You are priate ting your child. Despite all the training you've had not to. Despite all the gaslighting. Despite all their Trump like tantrumming. Their behaviour isn't normal. Or reasonable. Or right. Why should you even tho k you should be grateful for it? UnMNetty hugs.

Protecting, not pirating your child

Children, not child. I did read it properly, honestly!

Thanks for the quick and reassuring reply Wellhellyeah! Also made me chuckle as my youngest flipping loves dressing up as a pirate 🤣 thank you

at least it's an image to keep in mind when your parent is bringing the crazy to help you step away mentally a bit.

@mumbadger
Hold fast and don't back down, if you back down she will know that she only needs to turn up and cry on the doorstep again, it's fine to be firm and tell it like it is, they are the monstrous ones their behaviour is monstrous they are trying to hijack your life.
don't let them do it, blank them completely for a good length of time until they get the message that you will not tolerate harassment.

(And channel that fearless cutlass wielding pirate if you have to)

Sssloou

That is the very best post I have ever read on Mumsnet. Without a doubt, and I have been on here for well over a decade. It is enlightenment at its finest. I am not sure if your profession is helping people through this minefield, or whether this is all the knowledge you have gained personally from your own journey but either way I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart. That post needs to be placed somewhere where everyone that has suffered this, reads it, and then has the chance to copy and paste is somewhere accessible.

Maybe the next thread it could be added to the op?

Thank you, because like others I really needed to read that.

I also completely agree that this is the hardest relationship to break free from.

My father beat me, was emotionally abusive, has never loved me and actively told us he hated us and wished we were never born, he didn't want children. When someone is that cruel it is extremely easy to break free, when you accept that he is just a violent abusive bully - and nothing can be salvaged it is quite final, and a walk in the park compared to the 'sometimes loving' parent.

In contrast my mother (narc) will love me until I can hardly breathe, suffocating love but love all the same. The fact I had to parent her from a very young age and prop her up throughout my childhood as she had MH breakdown after breakdown. That everything in my life was seen in the prism of her feelings, and not mine that was harder.

As I got older and tried to have a life of my own she made all manner of threats, was openly cruel and would punish me by ignoring me and used silence as a weapon. The pain of the cycle with her is almost unbearable.
The small child in me is desperate for a parent, any parent. A need to be nurtured and cared for, but the hope that she will step up is always unmet. She lets me down every time, and so we start again. Or not....as we do have the option to break this cycle, but accepting they will never be there for us, and we need to be there for ourselves, we need to find others in our life that can support us when we need it always remains an option. Our parents for whatever reason are just not up to the job, and never were!

I used the contrast between my two parents to illustrate how hard it is to break free from the nice/nasty cycle - the parent that sometimes cares.
It is a torturous and painful experience, and so hard to finally break free. Acceptance is elusive, but it does come. With a lot of work, with the right support. I am not there yet, but I can see flickers of the end place - and I feel comforted by it.

wellhellyeah I just wanted to say I understand exactly how you feel about friends, when you finally see that some of your friends are toxic or very toxic and no doubt were chosen when you were in a less informed space than you are now, that they will need to go too. It is quite crushing.

But it is part of your enlightenment if you like, to now 'see' these friendships as bad for you. Noticing the total absence of any meaningful boundaries, and knowing they can not stay in your life. That is progress!!

Yes we may worry that we will feel lonely, after all we can't even rely on family. By cutting back the rot, we make space and light for new friendships that come with the kind of red lines that should have been there from the beginning, not that you need the red lines because you will have chosen better, kinder friends. Surely it is better to run the risk of a bit of loneliness but be emotionally intact, than to suffer yet more dysfunction. How are we to break free otherwise. We will always be locked in some kind of dysfunction, so we have to be brave and let them go.

I terminated a friendship of 34 years this week. The pain was pretty intense but it did not last, it was slowly replaced with a touch of pride, self respect and relief too.

Sorry not to have caught up on the rest of the thread yet. Have been dealing with DD MH issues, v challenging, but now in need of a quick off-load rant as just received an email from mother's credit card provider....before we went NC she refused to learn how to email, use internet etc even though totally capable of doing so and would give people my email address, meaning I had to deal with her admin or tell her to deal with it. Now she had a new credit card and has again given them my email address so I'm getting all her reminders. When this happened with the last credit card I phoned the bank to say the email address she'd given them wasn't hers and that I wanted it removed from her details. They said they couldn't do this as thr cardholder needed to request it. And I didn't want to contact my mother to ask her to sort it out. So I gave up. And now here I am getting her emails for another card and can't do anything about it - ARRRRRGH!

Sorry, better now