September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Glad someone posted a link to this, I was looking for it too. I would appreciate an objective view on something family related, can't write a lot now but hope to get time later

While my child is taking a bath, I will write this out here. Uncertain whether to post here or in AIBU or even on the covid board, as it is covid related - but on the other hand I think people who post in Stately Homes will understand the context more than the 'general population' of MN (and perhaps be a bit less vicious if I'm in the wrong)

The situation I have is to do with my mother. About a week ago, when we knew about the new lockdown, she came to me and deliberately said without me asking, that she and my stepdad would be my support bubble and also, therefore, she would not able to be the support bubble for my sister. She understood at that point, that the bubble is supposed to be exclusive. me and my sister are both single parents. me, working from home and not in a relationship, I have one child under 10. My sister, unemployed as she quit her job a few months ago during lockdown, but she has a partner who does not live with her, who she sees regularly, and has 2 teenagers and one child under 10. DM and I had discussed that technically my sister's support bubble is her partner.

I actually was suprised, very pleasantly suprised. Perhaps too suprised - this was probably the first time that I could think of, where DM had put me first and voluntarily so. For the last week I've been happy to have the option to drop my DD off at hers for a few hours of respite. I haven't done it, but was happy at the thought. I have been working long days in a professional job albeit from home, doing the school run around this and it has been hard. So I was grateful for having the option to have some time off potentially if I needed it.

However - tonight, we called DM and said, can we drop by. DM said yes and so we did so.At this point DM said that sister's teens had both been to her house and stayed over for 2 nights, and that she has agreed to have sister's youngest for a week. This is so that sister can fly to a European holiday destination with her partner. DM emphasised that if sister cannot do this, she has already been crying at the thought of not going with her partner, so DM has to do it.

I was a bit taken aback, but as I sat there I felt more and more angry. I then questioned DM. Said that as the teenagers have been there, actually we should not be as we were now not keeping to exclusive support bubbles. Said that DM should have mentioned it when we asked to come round and at least given us the choice, as we were now put in a place where we broke the regulations without having the choice. Asked why DM had told me one thing and was now doing another.

I know I am writing quite a lot here now, but just to give the whole picture - DM is a type who, if you are in any way being critical of her, angry with her, goes into victim mode, which is what she did tonight. I then became irritated at that in itself. DM was also drinking, as was stepdad, and so became shoutier as she became more victimy, and in front of my DD - so after a short while I chose to leave quite quickly and made it clear I wasn't happy. I just got us out, but have been full of anger since. I am angry at myself for believing DM's offer of support.

The lockdown rules say that if you see another household, you are supposed to be exclusive with them - it is in black and white on the government website. DM pretended she didn't know that the bubbles have to be exclusive (when I think she did), or about the penalties for breaking those rules (we might not get fined, the likelihood is that we will not, but I questioned whether she wanted to take the chance). DM started putting tit on me, saying I was asking her to make a choice between me and sister (I'm not, the government has made the rules not me), and she couldn't make that choice, and didn't know what to do, and started asking stepdad (who was in the kitchen and clearly wanted nothing to do with it). A few days ago, she was the one offering the support in the first place. I just got irritated and left.

This seems like it is about lockdown and the rules, but actually it isn't, not really. There is so much history here that I can't write out all at once or would make me sound like a crazy person. History where my mother was verbally and physically abusive through my childhood, dragged me in and out of her dysfunctional relationships, left me without any parenting so that I was so naive as a young adult and floundered for years, who was someone whose emotions always had to be most important whereas I was ever allowed any, who was always the victim and even when she had attacked me, would go and tell everyone she knew how bad a child/teen I was... there are so many things I could write. I went NC or almost for years, but she showed an interest in being a nan to my DD and every so often has popped up to spend time with DD (though, I think partly so she can tell everyone she knows what an amazing nan she is)

Right now I feel in a no-win situation. I thought I had been put first, just for once. I recognise people are breaking lockdown all over the place, but it isn't really about that. I want to be able to express disappointment and anger but if I do, my mother will use that as what I call 'victim fodder', where she can then tell everyone she knows how mean her daughter is being (again). And I don't have any support/childcare then anyway. But my sister gets support, or gets it either way. Or, I can have the support/childcare but the only way I can have it is by knowingly breaking the law, knowing we are mixing more than we should - and most of all I have to overlook my feelings to do it.

My mental health has only just got on an even keel after a long time, and before this it has been really bad, for years. All to do with DM and my background, and the way things then played out into my adult life. Part of me just wants to dis-connect from DM and part of me wants to be forgiving and for my DD to at least have some family (DM and stepdad are basically her only family options).

Now I really have written a lot, I hope it makes sense. Good to get it off my chest even if noone reads it,abut I will appreciate any feedback if you feel so inclined. And I mean any feedback - if you really think I'm wrong and being silly for making an issue of this then fair enough.

Tiny

Your mother was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed. Like many narcissistic women too, they always need a willing enabler to help them and that person is your stepfather. He is really her secondary abuser here. Narcissists also tend to have a golden child, that person here is your far more favoured sister. Her role is also a role not without price but she is unaware of that,

It is really not possible to have a relationship with people this disordered of thinking. Your daughter does not need relations like this in her life, she would be better off also without them being in her life too.

attila thank you. I recognise what you are saying. Especially when my mind, mood, behaviour, ability to parent depends sometimes on something DM has done or regular reminders of things from the past.

I want things to be better, I'm gullible and get taken in by DM in nice nan mode.. Like someone so hungry they'll be content worth scraps. Then something happens, I get angry with myself for being drawn in again. And she's not outright nasty, in the way you would think a narcissist is. Does a good PR job for herself too, telling you and everyone how much she is doing for you, so it's a bit of a mind game to then question what is actually going on.

I'm fed up. Yes my sister is golden child, has DM running around non stop after her and children. Treats DM like dirt, but DM jumps to her every time. She has trained her children in how to work DM, I know that sounds nuts but honestly it's true. She gets endless childcare, I barely go out. But I'm the mean one.

I recognise I'm an adult, I have agency here.. just whining about it puts me in the victim seat and no better than DM. There just aren't any good choices for me and DD.

Tiny

The best thing you can do here is to have nothing more to do with your mother, enabler stepfather and golden child sister. Your mother too has not changed in all the years since you were yourself abused by her as a child. The only people also who bother with people like your mother are the ones who have received special training, I,e the now adult children of such parents.

Beware any time your mother is doing something “ nice”for you or you think she is doing something nice, these people are past masters of come closer so I can hurt you again. And she has again done this. You need to drop the rope she holds out to you.

Abusers are not nasty all the time but their nice/nasty cycle of abuse is a continuous one. It’s not your fault she is like this, you did not make her that way.

Your daughter has you as her family, this is what she needs primarily and also she could do with seeing emotionally healthy male and female role models (any nice friends or neighbours.). Certainly not an abusive relation like your mother. Your sister and stepfather do not cover themselves in glory either. With you out of the picture they would hopefully turn on each other. If you really do want things to be better you are going to have to let go of all hope that she will change.

Thank you so much Mampam & Yes so kind of you

Have had a hell of a day, l go to look after Mum this morning , for her to tell me that my sister doesn't know who to 'leave her money to because the girls don't talk to her'. The girls are my Dds who l thought were the light of my sisters life only to see 2 years ago that they aren't. l felt as if the conversation with my Mum was a veiled threat. If they don't talk to her then she is not going to leave them any money .
A bit of background now. My sister is 68 she has always looked after herself fanatically, comes from a long genetic line and more than likely has another 30 years left in her. l am not exaggerating. I told my Mum that she needn't worry about who to leave it to because she will be spending it all on a care home , as no one will look after her , she will not have anyone and be on her own. I don't know what my Mum hoped to achieve by saying this to me but all it has done is really upset me. This is not about the money . I can't explain but l feel like , who says things like this, who even thinks like it. This has been said to me time and time again and l am hurt every time it is said . I really don't know why though. You would think l learned my lesson and could brush it off but it hurts . Previously l worshipped my sister , shared my 2 beautiful girls with her and put her on a pedestal , this has been so devastating for me , it has ruined my life.

'I want things to be better, I'm gullible and get taken in by DM in nice nan mode.. Like someone so hungry they'll be content worth scraps. Then something happens, I get angry with myself for being drawn in again. And she's not outright nasty, in the way you would think a narcissist is. Does a good PR job for herself too, telling you and everyone how much she is doing for you, so it's a bit of a mind game to then question what is actually going on.

I'm fed up. Yes my sister is golden child, has DM running around non stop after her and children. Treats DM like dirt, but DM jumps to her every time. She has trained her children in how to work DM, I know that sounds nuts but honestly it's true. She gets endless childcare, I barely go out. But I'm the mean one.'

Tiny l am so sorry , the begging for scraps reminds me of how again and again my Mum has behaved like this to me and l have fallen for it every time. I feel betrayed and you would think l would learn. Hopeless case Hugs my dear

Thank you Mrsmad that helps in a way because it means I'm not imagining things, and I know I don't want to go through however many more years of this. It will sound horrible but even in my 20s I remember thinking ill be free when she's gone, then I can start my life. My worst case scenario is probably stepdad going first at which point she will do what she's done every time she's been on her own and go full drama on the victim thing, I would expect to be vilified as the ungrateful daughter if I don't drop everything for her.

When I had DD she manipulated someone else into talking me into getting back in touch and moving near her. Told them she would be there for me with DD. Of course, never happened, I was alone with DD from birth but now in a place where I knew noone and she barely got in touch. Now I'm nearby though, the scenario above bothers me. DD is very settled in school though and doing fantastically so what's best for her is to stay.

Thank you attila you have described the nice/nasty thing very well. I do think as DD grows and she sees all this it's a case of the further away the better. Thank god grandparents don't have custody rights.

The other thread I posted on said I'm wrong about the childcare, so maybe I am wrong. Sometimes I have difficulty knowing up from down and my first reaction with DM is mistrust.

Tiny your feelings about the childcare are your own not someone else's. You are entitled to your feelings if you get feedback that differs from your that doesn't mean you are in the wrong. It is just how we all differ as human beings. Hugs my dear 🤗

I ABSOLUTELY relate to the 'begging for scraps' theme.

I had contact with an excellent counsellor when I was younger.
She told me a story about SS camp guards occasionally offering the starving prisoners badly tainted meat. Apparently some guards were vile enough to deliberately offer this knowing that those starving prisoners who couldn't resist it would be further weakened by D&V (it is almost unbelievable, but not quite sadly). I try to remember this.

DON'T consume the offered crumbs - they are tainted, you will feel ill afterwards and they are NOT the nourishment you seek.

It is SO much harder to put into practice though !!!

The love of my life is a narc (odd, that, after Mother's training, huh?)
He is an absolute expert at Crumbs. Leaves Mother standing.
It is very hard to keep away from him. Sigh.

argh, sorry for CAPS
(if I shout it on here, then maybe I can put it into practice myself? -ha!)

There is a sub conscious psychological reason that we go back time after time to our parents who abuse us as ADULTS as this is hard wired into our behaviour from birth.

So don’t beat yourself up about it - it’s normal as we are always in our own mind a CHILD to our parents even if we are 40 / 50 / 60 ..... because we depended on them for our physical survival as a child - for food, shelter and protection. So as a child we were driven time and time again to connect with them as they were our only option then to literally stay alive.

Even if our neglectful or abusive parent didn’t even supply these basics each time - we still went back with HOPE as a child as we needed these things even if erratic to physically survive.

As we become able to provide for ourselves we are confident to separate and have a different more adult to adult relationship with our parents around those basics. We don’t go back time and time again looking for food, shelter, protection.

It’s the same emotionally. They should have CONSISTENTLY supplied a sense of safety, warmth, kindness, respect and encouragement to grow our self esteem and emotional development just as much as the food for our physical growth.

If we were lucky to have had that we were able to grow into emotionally independent adults.

We didn’t know that we also needed these things explicitly as a child - this was “normal” in our “home” - but we were still needing these things implicitly and any deprivation stunted our emotional growth. This left was with deficits in our emotional development so we were often exposed to our own MH issues / anxieties and poor self esteem and often attracted similar intimate partners, friends, employers and stayed in these cold, exploitative, unkind, disrespectful relationships / situations whilst our self esteem was further eroded or until we emotionally educated ourselves and found the strength to move on - to a better partner, friend, employer. So we could replace bad with better.

But we only have one parent.

It is not as easy to go LC / NC as it is difficult to move on and replace them with another mother.

In our subconscious we are hardwired to continue to go back again and again in HOPE for the kindness, support, respect and encouragement that we still need from them in our deficient “child” emotional state.

We get hurt and disappointment either every single time or cyclically (if they are manipulative enough to work out our withdrawal / weak boundary pattern and timings with a nice / nasty cycle).....because they can’t or don’t deliver what we desire / need / expect. We preoccupy ourselves and talk about each incident as if it is shocking when the reality is this is always how they have engaged and always will be.

But we can move on and decide to get all of our emotional needs developed, repaired met and in reciprocal relationships with radiant, fun friends and family. We need to pick out who leaves us feeling consistently warm and refreshed when we spend time with them.....and focus on them. If we don’t have these types in our existing family / friend group - then we need to actively find them - we don’t need many - one of two would be enough.

But we need to appreciate the cognitive dissonance between the appropriately seeking, always HOPEFUL (because this is still needed for emotional survival) from the emotionally underdeveloped CHILD still in us in from this parent - the child’s naive expectation - despite the real life lived experience and evidence in the relationship to the contrary.

So don’t beat up your inner child who has not been emotionally nourished, who still needs and expects this subconsciously from their parent. Hope drives this inner child. That’s a wonderful stance but directed to the wrong place.

So our adult self
needs to gently tell this inner child that it’s NEVER going to come from this parent - in fact they can still continue to stunt our emotional development and do more and more damage.

But we can and do repair, emotionally develop, grow, get and give support, self esteem, encouragement, kindness, respect and warmth from other radiant emotionally balanced and healthy people in our lives and we need to actively seek this out as well maybe as seeking professional support to deal with this realisation.

The grief and pain that you as a child were starved and deprived and that child inside is still seeking that from the source that can’t or won’t give is v v tough.

Acknowledge and respect that.

It’s like going back to the same cupboard that is empty when we are hungry. We need to go somewhere else to get fed.
K
So don’t beat up your inner child who is only driven by childlike hope and is hurt, confused and disappointed like a child each and every time. Understand that this is the hardest relationship to come to terms with its dysfunction, to not get drawn back into (it’s hard wired in us), to move on from - to replace. So be self compassionate to yourself that this is the HARDEST relationship to see the reality in - especially if we haven’t yet understood this, then psycho educated ourselves and sought significant and professional help and support to get you through.

It’s a mix of long term strategic thinking and acceptance that this is how it is alongside daily tactics to protect ourselves from them and consciously work on our own personal emotional growth. This is different for all of us and is ever changing. It’s a process over many days years months as to how you choose to respond to the situation (which also changes from the other side at the same time).

We may get to a point where we can emotionally disconnect in our heads whilst still having a boundaried relationship with contact - or we may need to to full NC to reset and rebalance so that in time we can reconnect knowing we can handle this person and get something positive out of the relationship for us - or we recognise (which is most often the case after years of repeated hokey-kokey NC / LC periods) - that this just costs too much, is draining and reduces our ability to be the best mother, partner, friend we could be as we only have finite resources (energy, time, emotions) and our own children’s childhoods are passing by.

This is a hard card to be dealt which can consume you and still haunt you when they are dead. Be kind to yourselves.

I love the development of the nice / nasty cycle - that the covert “nice” is even nastier than the overt nasty.

Yes, intermittent validation: - that's the killer.
We are not stupid or weak. If the abuser was always clearly abusive then it would be straightforward. But they're not. They know exactly which buttons to push to make it painful & hard to even trust your own mind.

Thank you for the useful info above @Sssloou - timely for me! xxx

I would like to share my story.
I suffer terrible anxiety and hope to gain some perspective and insight.
I've never spoken with anyone in rl about this.
I've always known that I was a mistake and my mum had left it too late for an abortion so kept me. She told me every time I had been naughty. She was young when she fell pregnant and not in a serious relationship.
As a young child we lived with my grandparents who were absolutely fantastic and took on the parenting role. Mum was around but more like a sister role.
When I was a teenager mum got her own house and I lived with her. Just the two of us.
This is where the dreadful things started happening and I feel like I've took the blame.
Mum would tell me, as I left for school that she would be dead, having killed herself before I returned. She would do this if I hadn't been good or had argued with her.
I would spend all day at school worried band would be frightened to go home fully expecting she would have committed suicide.
My behaviour wasn't the best and I went off the rails drinking and having casual sex but I'm pretty sure this was a result of my life at home and not a reason for my mum's behaviour- if that makes sense.
My mum says I was to blame for everything as I was such a horrible teen and poor her had so much to put up with as a single parent. She used to cry and she even spoke to a church group about how bad I was and about how much she had to cope with. Her friend from the group would come round our house once a week to offer mum a shoulder to cry on whilst I sat upstairs listening to my mum saying how evil I was. This lady never heard my side or knew what my mum would say or do to me. She put on an act.
My mum would also comment how pretty my friends were and tell me I was fat or ugly and ask me why couldn't I be like them.
She also used to check my sanitary towels and knickers to check I had my period and wasn't pregnant. I felt so violated and dirty having to show her.
She would also burst I to my room and say"I know what you've been doing" insinuating I was masturbating.
The thing is, to the outside, friends, grandparents and the community, my mum looked like she was doing a great job.
Everyone thought she did everything she could to make my life happy. She was seen as a saint and everyone felt sorry for a lovely woman like her having to put up with my behaviour.
When I tried to talk about the past she cried and said I had been so horrible and she doesn't know how she coped with me being so bad. All about poor her.
I have contact with my mum.
She cares a lot what people think and likes to be seen as the doting grandmother. She cares about my DC but likes to be seen to care more - if that makes sense.She will help out because it makes her look good to others.
I live with terrible anxiety and as adult I feel deep shame about my behaviour as a teen however I'm so angry that my mum plays one of my victims rather than owns up to being the person behind my behaviours.
Do you think she knows what she did was wrong?
Do you think she genuinely thinks she did her best and it was all my fault?
I also think she resents me for being a different kind of parent to my dc to how she was with me.
I feel the need to constantly prove to her that I'm this fantastic parent. I and worry about my DC living with me and my issues.
I feel very confused.
Any advice/insight would be hugely welcomed.
Thanks for listening.

@Sssloou
Great post👏
Thank you for setting it all out for us🙏

@spied
She knows what she's doing, this woman is demonic, you must get far away from her as possible
I'm so sorry for the appalling things you've been subjected to💐
None of it is your fault, you were completely innocent, she is despicable 😞

I have reached the point where I have realised I will never go out into public again with my Dad. I think he has NPD and it just completely wrecks my self-esteem. He will deliberately embarrass me as a method of control when he gets into one of his bad moods.

We went for a walk to the local post office (same household so abiding by the lockdown rules) and it was humiliating. He was constantly swearing and talking badly of others with no awareness of how loud his voice was. I kept telling him to stop being horrible, stop swearing, lower your voice and trying to change the conversation but each time I would he would deliberately raise his voice and say something like "I don't give a f*ck what people think of me". He was carrying a bulky parcel for me that I had to send off and I was holding our dog's lead. He kept telling me if I didn't like the way he spoke he would go home and leave me with the parcel and dog.

I cannot do it anymore. On that walk I felt like the worst person in the world. I can feel people looking at us and thinking badly of us and the association with that kind of behaviour is humiliating and degrading and awful. I would never, ever speak badly of another person and the guilt of being associated with the comments he makes really upsets me.

I cannot do it anymore
I hereby give you permission to stop...not that you need permission, but have it anyway

I am currently having a lot of help from professionals regarding my PTSD and childhood trauma.

My parents, particularly my father moved onto start emotionally abusing my children, so we have stopped seeing him. I am still in contact with my mother who lives with him.

Does anyone have any experience about what to do about christmas?
They are not seeing people due to covid, which kind of helps. My mother is still expecting me to get presents to them I am pretty sure - and to collect hers for us. I am completely unable to look at my father at the moment, given the work I am doing to unpick the damage of my childhood thanks to him.

What have other people done at christmas, up to now I have not been in this position:

Do I post the presents and not see them
Do I deliver them, quick chat in the garden with my mother and leave
Do I take my mother out somewhere to celebrate

I am worried about my MH because it is extremely hard going over what happened, but I don't want to miss a christmas with my mother as she is getting older and may not be here forever. They are planning to spend christmas with my brother, so will not be alone.

Ihaveyourback

Welcome to this thread.

I would reconsider having any further contact with your mother going forward. She gets what she wants out of this relationship with your dad and has stayed with him for what are really her own reasons. She has also failed you as a parent by being his enabler (and secondary abuser) along with failing to protect you from the excesses of her H's behaviours.

Honestly re Christmas I would not bother with them nor buy her, or even worse both of them, any presents. If she moans or goes all PA on you tell her that you've decided to start a new tradition of not buying adults presents.

Re your comment:-
"but I don't want to miss a christmas with my mother as she is getting older and may not be here forever."

Please try and get all such thoughts like this out of your head!!. You will not be spending Christmas with her anyway as they are going to your brother's house (is he the more favoured golden child here?). We are all getting older and none of us will be here forever; your above comment is really no reason as to why you would want to spend Christmas with her (its after all only two days out of 365). Your parents had a choice when it came to you and they chose the low road and you copped from them what was in all probability meted out to them as children. You can and have indeed broken that abuse cycle with your children. You're protecting them.

You are also going to have to let go of any and all residual hope here that either she or your father will change.

Spied

Your mother is not fit to be called a mother and is certainly not worthy of the term. She should be in prison really for what she has done to you; she is absolutely a malignant abusive narcissist. It is NOT your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. She blamed you and made you the scapegoat for all her inherent ills

Re your questions:-
"Do you think she knows what she did was wrong?"
Yes.

"Do you think she genuinely thinks she did her best and it was all my fault?"
Yes but her "best" was in no way at all good enough. None of this was your fault, you were but a defenceless child at the time. How could any of this have been your fault, this is ALL on her. Sadly too, no-one thought it fit to keep you well away from this woman during your childhood. You probably also thought that you were not going to be believed by anybody.

I would suggest you contact NAPAC if you have not already considered doing so. Link is here:-napac.org.uk/

Great post Sssloou

I would only add that the nice/nasty cycle of abuse such people show their target is also a continuous one. Not all abusers are "nasty" all the time because if they were no-one would want to be with or spend any time with them. The phrase too, "street angel, house devil" also comes to mind with such malignant types. They are very mindful of how they present themselves image wise to the outside world and are sometimes regarded as pillars of the community. Many abusers are also quite plausible to those in the outside world.