September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I am v concerned about your DH MH. This has to be the priority. He needs decent therapy - research, short list and interview a few to decide where you will invest your time, MH and money if you go the private route.

Seems like his toxic parents have triggered a deeper depression / cPTSD / MH issue. This is affecting you all.....especially your DC. They need to see both of their parents emotionally confident, resilient and healthy otherwise they will internalise and become anxious and develop their own chronic MH issues when teenagers. And so the inter generational trauma flows through and harms you all.

There are lots of online resources also.

Have a look at the Pete Walker website or any of his books to understand complex PTSD. The hyper vigilance, avoidance behaviours and emotional overwhelm which is all consuming and exhausting is evident in both your behaviours. This needs addressing so that there is emotional capacity for you all to live as a care free, joyous, family not looking over your shoulder.

This involves rebuilding your emotional perspective and taking back control so that you can pre-empt and RESPOND to each and every assault on your family rather than be consumed by it and REACT by collapsing emotionally into their histrionics.

You need to take responsibility for getting ahead of this storm to protect and emotionally defend your family.

There will be many practical things to do to stop the impact on your life. I would take legal advice. I would log with evidence every thing they have done - as my understanding is that once you have told someone not to contact you and they do it twice more this is harassment.

You can plan the year and be ready for the usual assaults - the birthdays etc. What do you do currently with their cards / gifts? They should be disposed of without opening. They shouldn’t come into your house.

Know that they will never change - they never have - so you have to change by not exposing yourselves as much as possible, by taking legal advice, by getting your DH mentally well - with the goal of putting them in your rear view mirror and to feel “meh” and indifferent about them. That’s your goal it’s not easy.

I am dealing with something similar in my own life. When they find a route in or construct another incident - I allow myself to feel rage - to fantasise about raging at them for an hour, a day what ever it takes to process my feelings - but then I NEVER respond my silence, indifference and turned back is my power and my dignity and hurts them much much more than what they are trying to provoke. It’s exhausting - but I try to get ahead of their routine manoeuvres Xmas / birthdays etc and if something randomly crops up I review my defences. In the spaces in between and after each assault I recognise the drain it has in my family life and work hard to find peace and joy with my immediate family and good friends to refuel after the battering.

I am sorry that things have got so bad. I was at a point where I felt destroyed and depleted by the estrangement and reactivity to their provocations. But I have v v slowly dug myself out - for now.

I hope that you can find ways to cope and then thrive as a family.

You will never get peace of any sort as long as you remain in this village
Agree with this, for the toxic parents this is a 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us' issue they are so dysfunctional and easily triggered that they can't tolerate your proximity without acting upon their impulses to crush and subordinate you.
you have to get away or they will destroy you and do everything they can to prevent you from properly living, think of them as childlike stunted people who are beyond help and redemption.
Get the hell out of Dodge

Thank you @YesSheCan that’s really useful information. DH was having telephone sessions with an NHS counsellor and was about to be referred to our nearest domestic abuse team but that all halted because of Covid.
I assume the DA team deal with family abuse too, but I got the impression they didn’t know what to do with him and his situation.

I’m really sorry you’ve had to move lots of times but I so get that it’s worth it for your freedom.

my silence, indifference and turned back is my power and my dignity and hurts them much much more than what they are trying to provoke
this is true, in many ways the worst punishment you can inflict is to completely ignore someone, without validation we crumble and wither, leave them twisting painfully in the wind, dried out husks unseen and unacknowledged

@Sssloou and @Free3mee3
The only time my DH has ever responded was on the advice of the police. To email them (leaving a paper trail) and stating he did not want anymore to do with them or for them to contact him.

They still continue. Why?? We give them nothing.

I agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat we need to get out of this village. It’s not going to happen immediately so we need strategies to help us cope in the meantime.

We have so much going on in our lives that’s we’ve become stuck in a rut.

We needed a starting point, someone who could point us in the right direction. Hopefully I’ve found it by coming back to this thread.

Thank you all so much.

They still continue why we give them nothing
they are completely off the chart aren't they😟☹️ are there any issues with differences in culture? (not that's an excuse)
They are triggered merely by your proximity

I have stepped way back in distance and high up morally from my FOO - and I look down at their antics as some sort of dystopian pantomime. I have even given each of them roles / names - grotesque characterisations of themselves which has really helped me keep my distance and their nick names which haven’t left my head until now help me - one is Eleanor Rigby - brittle, bitter, friendless who has zero boundaries and has to involve herself in negative judgemental family stuff to discharge and project her own disfunction. Another one is Widow Twanky - centre stage, histrionic, gauche and gobby - as wiki says “a washer woman with mangled emotions.

So panning back and casting this shocking show has helped me see that they will always play their scripted roles - that they are OTT and unhinged. They needed to go into the trash can in my mind with all the other fruit bats who walk this earth and I have not to engage or dignify their lunatic behaviour with any words or actions.

they are triggered merely by your proximity
Yes that’s it isn’t it?
DH has cut off all the winged monkeys too, there’s nothing left.

There’s no cultural differences that I can think of. They are originally from a county far, far away from this one, and nothing was ever as good as their home county which did always make me wonder why they moved here when they moaned about it all the time.

Sssloou I love that you’ve turned it into a pantomime. And I love your character assignation!
I always look at it like a carousel, you can totally get off, stay on and spin around or ride up and down and spin around all at the same time.

Whilst DH and I have stepped off, we still feel like we’re spinning around and around!!

Whilst DH and I have stepped off, we still feel like we’re spinning around and around!!
I want to say that this is because, in their minds the whole village belongs to them, it is their carousel and you are still riding in it

I agree moving would help. But your DH mental (even if they both died) needs to be a priority right now. Lots of us are still dealing with cPTSD when our parents have been dead for decades

Can I join please?

My Mother is fairly toxic.
Left her husband and son (aged 4) to move in with my Father (who'd left his wife, who then made an unsuccessful suicide attempt). Became pregnant with me. When I was 12 weeks old my Father was killed in an RTA. Mother moved back in with husband. Never allowed him to adopt me, my birth cert had Father's name, but she sent me to school in her husbands name and I knew nothing until aged 16 (so O levels in wrong name etc). I then double barrelled it and she refused to speak to me. Left home aged 18, having been paying 'contribution' since 16 from Sat job money whilst doing A levels. Golden child half brother (who was encouraged to hate me for 'taking his mother away aged 4) moved out aged 16 when his paternal Grannie died and he was given her house.

Mother has been distant with me all my life.
Her brother abused me from the age of 4-16. She knew (letters between them to prove). When I went to the Police as an adult she accused me of 'tearing her family apart'. Indeed she is now the only one who 'speaks' to me at all.

When I say 'speaks' - I've had 2 emails since lockdown. One to complain that my son, had not 'phoned to tell Grannie he loves her' after she'd sent him a birthday card. He is 16, autistic, possibly epileptic, has depression and GAD, and has met her 4 times in his life. She expresses no other interest in him at all.

The 2nd contact this year was:
'Thanks for b/day greetings.
Didn't get the 'thankyou' card from your son and so far, a b/day card
hasn't arrived.
Thinking of being 80 again next year as my house is awash with flowers - it's wonderful!
I replied that
a) I had sent a personalised photocard to both Grannies with pics of son and a printed 'thank you' on. Other one arrived safely so I'll chase it up with the company I ordered from.
b) She had a birthday last week.
I had sent an email Happy Birthday and by post a fancy card and small gift from ds and money enc from me as a gift card / flowers not ideal (she has complained about both in the past, many times...)

Her reply was today:
'
Sorry, got confused - I did get the 'thankyou' card from your son - I was picturing a 2 sided card and of course it was merely a postcard!
Since starting this, MY HUSBAND has brought up the mail and in it is the mail from you (late of course) !

Right - 22 mins after I started this , I've had my usual letter from
Hospital, once again giving me an early morning appt that I can't in any way honour (and is noted as such) so needed to get on 'phone quick to re-arrange, which always take an eternity!

Thankyou for the LITTLE gifts and you really shouldn't have sent the
money, your need must be greater than mine!

  DUMP THE TRUMP and COVID !!!

Note the complete lack of enquiry as to how we are managing.
I am disabled, and both my kids have Autism (exH left: 'too hard')
so an enquiry would be appropriate? But then, I keep forgetting, she is not a 'Mother' but just the person who gave birth to me. It's different.

Ah, well!

(sorry, my half brother moved out when given house aged 26, not 16!)

Sorry I've no words of advice but she sounds like a horrible old cow. To allow her daughter to be abused is obscene. I can't believe you even talk to her, but that is testament to your strength of character, she really doesn't deserve it. As I said no advice but didn't want to read and run. Did you say you speak with your brother?

Hi @LondonTowers
well, of course she says she didn't know but the letters prove otherwise. No, my half brother doesn't speak to me since I went to the Police in 2002 (he didn't much before, tbf).
I was in my hometown (350 miles from me) last summer, kids in tow. Arranged to see Mother and her husband. They came to the train station to meet us (idea was we were going to go and sit in their garden and have a cup of tea) but upon arrival they said the car was too small to give us a lift. So my 'Dad' drove home, Mother walked along the High street with us, refused my suggestion of a cuppa in a Cafe, then caught the bus home. We were together for 40 minutes. It was enough, even with kids as a distraction! I doubt I'll see her again.

Her emails this year were fairly typical.
(ie no Qu's about grandkids, mentioning her own health issues, mentioning others affection for her 'all the flowers'! type stuff)

[quote YesSheCan]@Mrsmadevans it's totally normal to miss your sister even if she was abusive to you. Going NC is not as simple as cutting contact and then everything being fine. It takes longer to free up the space that toxic family members occupy in your head. I had a bit of a lightbulb moment today, sort of related to this, when I realised that I feel a lot of shame that I did things to please people who were abusive towards me, or at least avoid their anger, like I was somehow complicit in the abusive behaviour and because I allowed it I can't complain about it - even though I rationally know this isn't true, those feelings of shame are still there. I've displayed some flying monkey behaviour towards siblings in the past, not then having insight into it. It's good to get insight but at the same time painful to accept. I've gone off on a bit of a tangent about my stuff but trying to say I understand why you miss your toxic sister and it's ok to both miss her and recognise her treatment of you as abusive.[/quote]
Thank you so much @YesSheCan
I can so connect with what you are saying. I was run ragged by my sister trying to get Rugby match tickets for her for a present. Three of us , my Dh , myself and my Dd2 were glued to the computers refreshing the pages for hours to try to get seats for them for Christmas presents off us , only it wasn't a case of us just getting the tickets and paying for them, it was a case of getting the tickets in our basket and then ringing her to see if the tickets were to her choosing. The three of us doing this for her ! This farce would be repeated sometimes for a long time , until she finally deigned to agree the seats were good enough for her. I think back now and can't believe the way we were twisted around her finger. We were so stupid. Like lapdogs panting and waiting on her every whim. I am cross with myself too but l get what you are saying oh yes!

[quote mampam]@Free3mee3 it honestly seems that our only option is to wait for them to die so we can be free.
Other than that, as @LondonTowers has said, moving away from the immediate area is what we so desperately need to do which is never as easy as it seems. Now that my husband can no longer work it’s more difficult but hopefully we’ll get there in the end.

In the meantime we need to work out a strategy and coping mechanism to deal with this.
Honestly, just popping out in the car and passing them on the road will ruin our day. Having that dreaded card or letter arrive in the post will stir everything up and although we don’t read them anymore, just burn them, it opens up old wounds and we need to be able to deal with that.

We would never be able to go back to having a relationship with these people. They are cold, calculating, manipulative and controlling.

These are people that once they realised their son could not be controlled, changed the locks so that my DH could not access his work tools or machinery. DH has to write a letter 48 in advance asking permission to gain access.
Once we’d moved, FIL, who hadn’t worked for years, set himself up in direct competition with DH, with bigger and better machinery, able to offer more than DH, using all of the ideas DH had for the progression of his business.
That’s a real head fuck for my DH. These people were supposed to be his parents.
Not deliberately screw him over to try and gain control.[/quote]
@mampam I am so so sorry this is absolute torture for you all. Can you get from them can you move in any way shape or form. Dear God they are really malignant , thank God you have your Dh back.

My Mother is fairly toxic
fairly toxic??
full blown rabid toxic narcissist more like 52andblue
no insight, no self awareness, no empathy....personality disorder surely?
I'm so sorry that you were the victim of abuse, and to know that she knew and then blamed you
horrifying, no words
my parents were the same, I was abused by a relative, parents only concern was to shut me down so that it didnt get out an embarrass them, they refused to acknowledge that I'd been wronged, in just the same way that you dont admit fault after a car accident so as not to jeopardize the insurance claim:(
Dont waste another second of your time on this vile creature:(

@52andblue you were so brave to report the abuse. l am in awe of you honestly l am. I was abused sexually by my Father when he was drunk. l was a child and the way it makes you feel is absolutely horrible. It makes you feel like you are nothing. I have not reported it to anyone, my Dad is dead, l loved him and l can't see the point in telling anyone now , l wouldn't even be believed. I am so sorry.

Sorry, forgot my manners, hello and welcome 52andblue :)

It makes you feel like you are nothing
I'm so sorry for what happened to you Mrsmadevans
and yes, that was my experience, it makes you feel like nothing, a fag butt stubbed out under someones shoe, crushed humiliated and discarded

@Free3mee3

It makes you feel like you are nothing I'm so sorry for what happened to you Mrsmadevans and yes, that was my experience, it makes you feel like nothing, a fag butt stubbed out under someones shoe, crushed humiliated and discarded

@Free3mee3 it takes another victim to recognise the pain and damage we have suffered. I am so sorry you went through the same , it seems there are far too many of us

I came on here this morning after reading this thread for ages... was going to write something about my own situation and find some ideas for coping/ way forward. Mampam your post describing your situation was shockingly similar to my own (including the housing situation, drive bys, cards, letters, letting themselves into the house etc.).. am currently being told by one member of my family that im responsible for their ill health / being off work sick as i refuse to talk much with them or let them see the grandchildren! List goes on. Mampam you are not alone!!! I absolutely dont have the answers but been trying to get myself sorted because i jump every time someone knocks on the door. And recently found out my work have access to counseling via an employee welfare scheme so maybe check with your work (tried nhs referral route and am on a waiting list but as demand is so high its some time away). Also trying to move with sod all money. will preserve. Good luck.

@mumbadger

I’m really sorry you’re going through this.

Your family members are being used as the flying monkeys, who in turn are being manipulated.
They aren’t interested in the GC unless it’s to feed their narc supply. The GC are a way to gain sympathy from others (it usually works) and to make you feel guilty. (Also to get others to make you feel guilty too!).

@Mrsmadevans

I’m sorry for what you went through as a child. It seems like the worst kind of betrayal a parent can inflict.

We are desperately trying to move but we are renters which seems to make the task harder somehow.

@52andblue you must be utterly exhausted from it all?!!

@52andblue hello and so sorry for what you have been through with your FOO. 'My mother is fairly toxic' is one hell of an understatement. Most shocking of all is that she knew about her brother abusing you and did nothing to protect you. I'm so sorry. Well done for reporting. I hope the police took it seriously

@Mrsmadevans I'm so sorry for what happened to you too. Of course the decision to report is yours and you have to do what is right for you. But re your comment 'I wouldn't be believed' - I recently decided to report sexual abuse by a family 'friend' that happened 25 years ago. I can't fault the police's response. Taking my account seriously from the outset, no victim blaming questions or asking why I didn't report earlier. They understand why victims don't report for years or at all. They understand abusers bank on their victims not reporting out of fear/guilt/feeling they can't cope with going through the process. In your case I can fully understand why you feel it is not worth reporting to the police as your father is deceased. But have you had specific childhood sexual abuse counselling? And have you heard of the Truth Project? Someone I know recently posted about their very positive experience with it and how they were glad that their anonymous testimony might help other victims. I'm thinking of doing it myself. to you

Hi again.
Thank you for the welcome, everyone.
It wasn't so much the abuse by the brother, but she later actually tried to facilitate it with another family member. She is very messed up.
My experience with the Police was not so good, but that was 20 years ago, and I think things have changed? I do hope so.
I guess the hardest thing is to still be affected by her lack of concern for me or my children. I don't know why I didn't go totally NC 20 years ago (I am, almost). When she dies it won't make much difference, as she was never a 'Mother' to me anyway? (in my case she wiped my bum and fed me for appearances sake but that was about it).
Yet still, an email can upset me for days - crazy!!!

ps @YesSheCan - the Truth Project sounds interesting: I will look into that. Your words about missing the abuser / shame implicit in 'allowing it' - all very useful to remember, thank you xxx
I have had some specialised counselling (without which I would not be here, am a MH professional myself and have worked with adult survivors of CSA, so you think I'd be inured to all the elements of it by now - but it can still trip you up, in the most unexpected ways). I guess in a way it will be a relief when she dies? (how awful!)