September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Re the weight thing again, at times when I did get thinner around the hips (first place I put on weight) and drop a size, usually due to severe anxiety, my mother would look at me and say I'd gone too thin and looked ill and gaunt in the face and wonder if I was anorexic. It's like she wanted me to be 'beautiful like her' but it also seemed kind of competitive, like if in her eyes I actually did look better (ie thinner) she didn't like it. Ugh.

I have read your post again, l can see it describes my Sister to a T. My Mum is more of a narc by proxy, althought being slim and pretty was the be all and end all and still is. She is very like a histrionic narc, even threatening regularly , when l was a child, to commit suicude. I became her guardian , stopping her from taking tablets and drinking of a Saturday night after violent rows with my Father & my brother. l was so scared she was going to die and leave me , if l could only of known it would have been the best thing for me.

@YesSheCan 'I'd gone too thin and looked ill and gaunt in the face and wonder if I was anorexic' This was my story .
l lost a tremendous amount of weight about 8 years ago and l was told this from my Mum too. I don't know what she thought really , l mean do any of us really know what they are saying?

@Mrsmadevans I doubt our narc/borderline (not being a psychiatrist I can't figure out which my mother is) parents have consistent feelings about things. Looking back on my upbringing there was so much ambivalence it's no surprise it was a headfuck!

@AttilaTheMeerkat I’m looking at sharks right now on the net. Whip round? There’s visualisation techniques we could all use, eh?

@YesSheCan bloody well done on NC and standing your ground. Brilliant barriers. And please don’t beat yourself up about Narc Man - that’s a very lucky escape as he sounds like he would have ramped up the abuse if you’d had a relationship.

@LondonTowers
i really think the youngest in many unhealthy families are lined up to be the servant to the narc. It’s like those Irish novels of the bachelor younger son on a farm looking after mammy. My DP was in line for this until I rocked up, spotted the BS and took him out of it. We’re only really back in haggery because of lockdown. After her illness we were all set to hand her back to BIL as we’d done five fucking weeks of nursing - she was angling to stay - and sorting out care (which she now doesn’t need) and then LOCKDOWN.

OH GOD, your mum would have moved in. I can’t even imagine. Terrible. Don’t doubt yourself about it - that’s real. They rely on hints because I don’t think some of them can actually ask for anything as a refusal would crush them. The Crone asked the BIL if she could move into his equally slum house (they weren’t brought up to live anywhere nice) before - he dodged it - and we were next on the list. @LondonTowers you would have been mixing the drinks and I would have been putting fucking channel 10 with wall to wall Heartbeat on for the crone. Shudders.

@MonkeyfromManchester thanks, NC had to be done. It was a last resort after really trying to have a healthy relationship with my mother but she just didn't want that, she wanted to keep control.
As for narc man, a relationship was not on the cards, definitely not after meeting him in person, I just wanted my stuff back and mistakenly thought we could be friends of a sort when things had calmed down. I do hope I'm better at noticing massive red flags earlier on these days!

@MonkeyfromManchester
' My DP was in line for this until I rocked up, spotted the BS and took him out of it. We’re only really back in haggery because of lockdown. ''
I don't know if you realise but your posts really cheer me up because you make them sound so funny, you really are a wit . l mean that in the nicest way

@MonkeyfromManchester perish the thought! Sometimes I just can't believe the requests we are put through. Can't imagine ever subjecting my children to such requests. Its fucked.

@AttilaTheMeerkat liking what you say: "This need for external validation makes narcissists acutely conscious of whatever their social group regards as high in status."
My mothers social group is her family (her brothers and sisters) and they all hold "family/family values" in high esteem therefore it would make sense that her insistence that "blood is thicker than water/ family stick together" and her attitude that I am there to nurture her needs as my beloved parent fits I with her narcy social groups worldview. I hope i am making sense as this feels like a lightbulb moment to me.

To all you out there suffering from weight related bullying, I hear you. I'm sorry to you all, people are either too fat or too thin according to my mother. Obviously im the former according to her 😂

😂 @LondonTowers

@Mrsmadevans thank you. My work partner thinks there’s a sit com in it. It will be better than Bless This Fucking House which is on channel 10 at 9am in case you want to swing by and watch it with the Crone.

Oh. You don’t want to?

Ladies, the weight thing is horrific. Just never being good enough - how horrible.

I don’t have kids but like you @LondonTowers I cannot imagine wanting to exercise that amount of control and being so selfish as a parent.

@MonkeyfromManchester My Dh says that too
I have been a bit sad today , l miss my sister and BIL so much, or l miss what l thought they were to me , even though they were two faced to me and smeared me to others. I am so stupid l could hit myself.

The fat shaming l had to put up with was horrible. I remember l hated getting up from my chair because l felt so uncomfortable they were waching me and judging. They were. l was right on that one

@Mrsmadevans
We could co-write it!
You’re not stupid. I really do think as humans we are naturally good and collaborative and trust each other so we do feel stupid at a very deep level when that’s betrayed.

It all casts a long shadow. NC sounds so “easy” (however beneficial) but I imagine it’s hard but the long term benefits must be incredible. Living your own life.

I had a wobble this morning when I realised the Crone’s podiatry appointment clashed with my therapy appointment on Tuesday. I was all set to change MY appointment then I had a V STRICT word with myself and cancelled hers (I have to take her). It would have been a great thing to tell the therapist “oh, yeah, I rearranged you for the hag”. The hag will work out that I’m coming first in the new regime.

She can fucking well deal with it and I’ll have a word with the clinic about those concrete boots so beloved by the mafia...

Onwards!

@MonkeyfromManchesteryes l so hope l feel happier soon, honestly there is no going back now l know . Now l know , 3 little words that say it all , everything seems lies to me now , l cannot trust a word they say.
We could write it together l bet! Glad you changed the Crones appt serve the Crone right , however you may be doing a disservice to CRONES she sounds much worse [GRIN]

@Mrsmadevans it's totally normal to miss your sister even if she was abusive to you. Going NC is not as simple as cutting contact and then everything being fine. It takes longer to free up the space that toxic family members occupy in your head. I had a bit of a lightbulb moment today, sort of related to this, when I realised that I feel a lot of shame that I did things to please people who were abusive towards me, or at least avoid their anger, like I was somehow complicit in the abusive behaviour and because I allowed it I can't complain about it - even though I rationally know this isn't true, those feelings of shame are still there. I've displayed some flying monkey behaviour towards siblings in the past, not then having insight into it. It's good to get insight but at the same time painful to accept. I've gone off on a bit of a tangent about my stuff but trying to say I understand why you miss your toxic sister and it's ok to both miss her and recognise her treatment of you as abusive.

Bit of a random mention but I watched She-Ra and the Princesses of Power (!) with DD tonight (the reboot not the 80s version) and although a kid's show, there was so much symbolism about recovering from abusive parenting in it that I felt quite emotional watching it!

...complete with manipulative crones, haha

Good morning,

I haven’t posted on here for about 5 years. I’m so glad this thread is still going.

Re: the weight thing......I remember my mother laughing when my first stretch mark appeared as a teenager.
As a young adult, she would buy me clothes and make me try them on in front of her. They were always too small.
If ever I was doing well losing weight, we’d get invited over to dinner. Every fucking time she would serve up a pie with pastry and a mega fattening pudding. I usually sat there watching everyone eat their dessert and I wouldn’t have one.

So I’m back on this thread, not because of my own narc mother who I’ve been NC with for 10 years but because of my DH’s evil parents who we’ve been NC with for 5 years but they are continuing to play a huge part in our struggling mental health especially for DH.

In a very quick background we’d been NC with them before. After the birth of our first DC together (I have 2 older DC) we let them back in. They’d turned a new leaf and it seemed as if they had.
Looking back now I know we were lured into making the worst decision of our lives. They gave us a house....next door to them. DH is an only child and it seemed perfect.

It was horrendous. I won’t bore you with all the details but it entailed my clothes and shoes going missing for months on end only to turn up in the most obvious place, we weren’t allowed to lock our front door because they didn’t have a copy of the key, post going missing blah blah blah. They also had control of our DC.
Many a night DH spent sat up in bed clutching his chest because the stress of it all.

Anyway, we found ourselves in a position where we had to move house and quickly, all of our money we’d ploughed into our forever home so we had nothing. All we could find was a tiny house to rent 2 miles down the road from them. With one road in and out of our village, we had to drive passed them everyday, as did our DD’s school bus.

They didn’t leave us alone. They’d dump stuff on our doorstep, drive passed our house, send letters, cards. They pinned DH into lay-bys with their vehicles on his way home from work to make him talk to them, there were times when I was alone in my car (there are 6 miles of very rural lanes to get to our house) and they’d be driving behind me almost bumper to bumper, then back away, then they’d be right up behind me again, they’d do anything to gain DD’s attention on the school bus, from life sized Pingu paintings to big flashy Christmas decs on their house. They would put themselves somewhere along the bus route so the could wave to her.
One day the bus driver was really concerned as she though FIL was trying to flag the bus down, so she stopped but DD told her she wasn’t allowed to get off the bus at their house.
I went to the school, spilled everything to the headteacher who told me to go to the police as we couldn’t spend the rest of our lives looking over our shoulders.
The police weren’t interested. They did speak to the ILs but it was reasonable that they would drive past our house, they were allowed to put things on our doorstep on birthdays etc, obviously they denied any wrong doing and the police officer who went to see them called me and told me he’d suggested mediation to them which they’d said no. He also told me it wasn’t fair of us to keep DD from seeing her grandparents.

Fast forward a few years, we moved house, still within the same village. They’ve obtained our address, the letters still come, birthday cards for DH and the 2 youngest DC. But they are written as if nothing has happened. At the start of the first lockdown we found a note from FIL under the windscreen wiper on our car.
All the letters have the same tone. Never an apology, just how one of them will have been in hospital and had some kind of near death experience, they love DH and will always be his parents and they always sign off as mum and dad. DH has always called his parents by their Christian names and that’s what they’ve always referred to themselves as too.

DH has never responded.

The problem we face now is DH has had a really tough 2 years with his physical and mental health. He had to give up working last year and is registered disabled.
His mental health is poor too and it’s become clear that he’s suffering with trauma from what happened 5 years ago and also trauma from his childhood.
Receiving letters from them opens up raw wounds every fucking time. He’s on edge every time he hears a motorbike (we’ve seen his dad do drive by’s on his) and each time his or DC’s birthdays are coming up he’s stressed, waiting for the inevitable.
DH has nightmares about them (as do I) where he physically lashes out, these are more frequent around the times when letters or cards arrive or we’ve passed them in the car.
We need help. It feels like they have unleashed a permanent reign of terror upon us and we are unable to escape.

We are desperately trying to move house, but it’s hard. What if they find us again? There are so many repercussions we still feel 5 years on, so many reminders and things that trigger the memories.
I know DH would benefit from counselling but how do you go about finding a counsellor that can deal with the complexities of toxic parents?

I’m sorry I haven’t gone into full detail but it would take so long to write and I’m not sure I’m ready or strong enough to rake up those memories.

Mampam, good morning and welcome back😊
I'm so sorry that you have been subjected to this dreadful campaign against you 😟
There are therapists who understand the dynamics of theses situations, but I hear you it can be difficult to find them, not to mention expensive and time consuming. Hopefully others will offer advice in this area.
Clearly this is a very large and complex issue, it's difficult to know where to start ....what do you see as your options currently?

@mampam poor you, the drama sounds exhausting. If being NC is the only way (and you can't get mediation etc) then from what you have said it would seem moving (away and out of the village) is your only option. Sorry you are having such a rough time of it x

@mampam that is horrendous. So sorry for you and your DH and kids. I second the advice to move away. You cannot live like this and your in-laws do not sound like the type to be reasoned with.

I moved to a different area with DD to escape toxic mother who I'd had to call police to remove from my home (they were v helpful though and told her not to contact me). I lost thousands through failed house purchases and needing to move multiple times until finding a school where DD could get support she needs for her MH issues (a lot of which due to my mother's behaviour). I went NC 2 years ago and only just got out of debt a couple of months ago. We now live in rented rather than me being a homeowner. It's been hard. But I still feel it was totally worth it as we are free from day in, day out toxicity. Good luck and get all the support from trusted people that you need - there are people who understand and will help you

Re the counselling for understanding complexities of toxic parents, psychological therapy wpuld be necessary rather than counselling. I had cognitive analytic therapy with a private therapist. This form of therapy was recommended to me by a psychiatrist. It cost £65 per 45 min session. Courses are usually 12-16 sessions long but I had 24 sessions as there was a lot to work through and my mother was living with us at the time so I made rather slow progress. But it was lifechanging as it gave me the courage to finally stand up to my mother and take the necessary action to preserve my sanity and protect DD. Luckily I was able to afford it at the time. I couldn't now and understand many people would not be able to afford it. It may be worth your DH accessing NHS psychological therapies though. You can self-refer or ask GP to refer (but if he self refers, he can make sure on the referral that he explains he needs help with parental emotional abuse, then hopefully will be assigned a therapist who gets this. It is a bit potluck on the therapist you get but worth trying). If he can afford though, I'd recommend CAT over NHS therapy. You can find accredited therapists in your area on the ACAT website www.acat.me.uk

Dr Ramani's videos about narcissistic parents on youtube are also useful

@Free3mee3 it honestly seems that our only option is to wait for them to die so we can be free.
Other than that, as @LondonTowers has said, moving away from the immediate area is what we so desperately need to do which is never as easy as it seems. Now that my husband can no longer work it’s more difficult but hopefully we’ll get there in the end.

In the meantime we need to work out a strategy and coping mechanism to deal with this.
Honestly, just popping out in the car and passing them on the road will ruin our day. Having that dreaded card or letter arrive in the post will stir everything up and although we don’t read them anymore, just burn them, it opens up old wounds and we need to be able to deal with that.

We would never be able to go back to having a relationship with these people. They are cold, calculating, manipulative and controlling.

These are people that once they realised their son could not be controlled, changed the locks so that my DH could not access his work tools or machinery. DH has to write a letter 48 in advance asking permission to gain access.
Once we’d moved, FIL, who hadn’t worked for years, set himself up in direct competition with DH, with bigger and better machinery, able to offer more than DH, using all of the ideas DH had for the progression of his business.
That’s a real head fuck for my DH. These people were supposed to be his parents.
Not deliberately screw him over to try and gain control.

DH had to write

mampam

I remember you well from previous writings. You will ultimately need to move well away from these people; probably many tens if not hundreds of miles away to a totally different locale and start again. You will never get peace of any sort as long as you remain in this village.