Need help with DD and her mental health?

[Userandmuser]

I am very confused right now. My DD18 has always been difficult and an angry person towards me and it’s getting a lot worse. I’m not an angel or perfect and I tend to bite back sometimes when I am tired or had too much of it. I also try to make peace and find resolutions too and have tried to get her help.

Lockdown has not helped the situation she is frustrated all the time although she is quite independent she is going though a phase where she really really hates me. I really do not know what is real or not anymore and if she needs help or if she is punishing me to an extreme level.

When she is unhappy with me I am often unaware there is a problem or I have done anything and she will begin to verbally attack me, this starts off with small jabs and jibes and comments and escalates to shouting. The whole time I am trying to listen, de-escalate and not fight back with her but to diffuse, talk and calm down with firm boundaries.

Whenever I challenge her to explain herself (even when she is calm) so I can understand the issue she will leave the discussion and refuse to engage anymore - so I am not getting anywhere and nothing is ever discussed or resolved. When I tell her something is not true, this makes her more angry.

Last night I saw my boyfriend. DD will not allow my boyfriend to come to our house when she is home so I went out as I do not want to fight over it. DD does not know him but he is a nice man. I had not seen him since Saturday - I see him once or twice a week max. The whole rest of the week I am at work or at home. DD was not home all day (I had worked from home) as she was out at the beach. DD was very angry I was not at home that evening although I had let her know about it, and she wasn’t home till late.

Today started off that I text her at 8.30am in the morning from work to ask her about her course results from college and to let me know when she got them. She usually has her phone on silent all the time. I sent it before a meeting in case she got them early and as a ‘good luck’ message. She was asleep and angry that the message woke her up. She sent some angry texts. She got the results, we discussed it on text, I was happy for her and said I was proud and then she changed the subject to ask me what was for dinner. DD refuses to cook food and was then angry about dinner and that I might cook something she doesn’t like.

Tonight I came home from a long day at work with a headache. She did not come downstairs to say hi as she was in the shower. I went upstairs to lie on my bed and she came in to me angry I had not spoken to her about her results when I got home. I apologised and tried to talk to her which she shut down and left. I nodded off as I had a headache and was tired, with the intention to get up and cook dinner in a while.

DD has come into my room, screamed at me for being asleep, marched around the house shouting, began to cook dinner for herself but cooked half of it then threw it all in the bin.

The reasons for being angry with me:

• I haven’t been home for 3 days. This is not even true in any way - I have either been working or at home since Saturday. Or working from home. I went out once last night.

• I never cook anything. As DD never cooks, I’ve cooked everything for 18 years

• I never do any housework and she does everything - this is also so untrue. She does very little

• I never asked her about college and showed no interest. Which I did

• All I care about is boyfriend and I keep trying to make her meet him. Also not true. And it was ok for him to kindly put her TV on the wall last month but then she demanded he leave immediately

• it was ok to wake me up because I ‘shake her awake’ every morning when I go to work. This does not happen

I’m worried about these things she accuses me of, because she seems to really believe they are true and is so angry about them and they are not reality. I am confused over whether she really believes them to be true? And she won’t talk about them with me when I try to get to the bottom of it or find a resolution.

I am sitting in my car in the rain because I couldn’t sleep my headache off, she threw all the food away I could have cooked and then accused me of these things and I don’t know what to do.

All of what you say screams ASD to me, PDA is a subset/particular type of ASD.
Girls present very differently to boys.
And yes, you have to set boundaries to protect you, for you, and stick to them.

I looked up the adult ASD process here just now and she would have to complete the AQ-10. It is only 10 questions and DD is fairly calm today so I said DD can I ask you some questions or show them to you as this might be what the doctor asks you and you will be ready.

Well it was like I had asked her to diffuse a bomb. Straight away she said I was trying to tell her she wasn’t normal but I said these are just questions they ask. She did listen to the questions as I got the other DC to answer them (and kind of made it less scary) but closed her door on me so I left. She then came down after 5 mins and let me ask some of them again. She said she didn’t understand them and didn’t know how to answer them. She said what does it mean do I know by someone’s face someone’s intentions? I don’t know what that means? What are intentions? So I have given up for today

[quote Userandmuser]@Vodkacranberryplease

I’m not usually one for online diagnosis but it does seem to fit. Does anyone have any experience with someone finding this out? It’s not like she has grown up with a diagnosis so to get one, how would this feel to her if she did get one? I know we have adult ASD service and I think this should be ruled out at least. I suppose they would be good at explaining it all? I don’t have enough experience or understanding and need to do a lot more reading!

When she was little she was very fussy with food and also labels in clothes touching her. Nursery and primary she seemed to manage ok, but secondary school hit her very hard (large and overwhelming) and she disengaged pretty quickly.[/quote]
Sorry I missed this. I dont have experience with getting an ASD diagnosis, but I think the NHS will be slow. Treatment is difficult too - but does exist & early intervention is key. Private however is expensive. Shame on CAHMS for dismissing you - my niece is getting better help in the adult service but has anorexia. I think her mum just went back & back to her GP & kept (very) nicely pushing. You have a comprehensive list of things your daughter does & need to lead with that (add the food & labels to it - & talk about what changed when). Facts are your friend here.

I think you go back to whatever contacts with your very clear list you have & push & push for referrals. Shes is NOT an adult. Regardless of what they say she has if they offer her help a lot of it will overlap eg DBT is for explosive emotions/BPD but is being used for ASD emotions too.

What I think will be helpful is finding support groups & forums dedicated to this kind of ASD (PDA did someone say) IN GIRLS. Then links to books. What is invaluable is hearing first hand from people with it what their experience is & from parents how it presents & what helps.

As an example you can read & the NHS stuff on ADHD & even talk to their doctors & walk away without knowing a fucking thing about what is actually going on. The gross oversimplification (its only children! Its only attention & hyperactivity!) & ignoring of the emotional side of it is just dreadful. ASD has got to be even worse especially in adolescent girls. I see that with my niece. She doesnt have BPD - & is being treated by top pyschologists who love her because she is nice, co operative & trying eg doesnt fucking have BPD. Experts & real help are few & far between.

Also if you can find a good book for her to read in her own time. She must be desperate to put the pieces of the puzzle together & find out if she can change. She lacks the self awareness to understand how she presents to others but once she realises her pain will go through the roof.

You have to be the one by her side. Giving her the info to digest, facilitating the treatment, but not treating her. Your job is to take no shit, be loving, but telling her what to do & how to do it when it comes to this - no, thats for a stranger to do.

Also I believe theres a Special Needs board on Mumsnet. Probably a goldmine!

@Userandmuser

I looked up the adult ASD process here just now and she would have to complete the AQ-10. It is only 10 questions and DD is fairly calm today so I said DD can I ask you some questions or show them to you as this might be what the doctor asks you and you will be ready.

Well it was like I had asked her to diffuse a bomb. Straight away she said I was trying to tell her she wasn’t normal but I said these are just questions they ask. She did listen to the questions as I got the other DC to answer them (and kind of made it less scary) but closed her door on me so I left. She then came down after 5 mins and let me ask some of them again. She said she didn’t understand them and didn’t know how to answer them. She said what does it mean do I know by someone’s face someone’s intentions? I don’t know what that means? What are intentions? So I have given up for today

Great job. A perfect example of why you need to give it to her & step back. You can see she doesnt even have those basics. Honestly some of the NHS MH stuff is just shit. Irrelevant shit.

She knows shes not normal but you can not be the one to tell her. Not up front.

I think buy her a book (carefully chosen) or find an article/forum, & say 'I think this could be really useful to you. Have a look in your own time & if you want to talk whenever Im here'

This is devastating for her. Truly traumatic.

That tells you all you need to know really. Well done for engaging her. Let the seeds set in - leave it for now. My DD (and my life minus the surgery but replace with other traumas) mirrors this situation.

My DD did the autism test at CAMHS at 10 and didn’t fall within it. PDA (meltdowns specifically) was more accurate reflection of her behaviour but again diagnosis didn’t come through.

So I just work with her using the same adaptations as recommended for ASD children. It has transformed her. And me.

Compassion for her fears / possible undiagnosed disability and compassion for yourself for trying too hard for too long with under resourced and equipped with the wrong tools.

I think you have made a significant turn on your pathway today. Take it gentle.

She is scared. She already knows she is “different”. She is emotionally dis-regulated and rides the fear / anxiety / control / rage / shame loop of self esteem erosion daily.

Just found this - not sure if it fits?
www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx
autismawarenesscentre.com/an-introduction-to-pathological-demand-avoidance-pda/
Also
www.autism.org.uk/services/diagnosis.aspx
And
www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/broaching.aspx

I get a lot out of google by doing 'natural word searches' eg 'treating ASD PDA in girls' 'treatment for adolescent girls with autism'
www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/the-lost-girls/

Forums are great too - they will have specific books the recommend.

@Sssloou Great post! My niece has the same thing. 'Not autistic' - except she is. No one wants a label but sometimes knowing whats goin on can set you free.

Where did you find treatment, & which treatment & books did you find helpful?

OP, if your DD won’t speak to the doctor, I’d suggest you talk to them and explain that you’re not able to cope with DD’s behaviour, hence the appointment. You have a right to be heard as well.

Vodka’s Post was harsh but I agree that your DD will really struggle in life if her behaviour/reactions don’t change. Right now you’re her emotional punchbag, but she may easily transfer this behaviour to a partner or friend in the future and end up destroying her own happiness. She needs to address it now.

How did the weekend go userandmuser?

@Vodkacranberryplease I didn’t use any specific treatment or books - just looked at lifestyle adaptations for ASD as well as cPTSD (Pete Walker website) in which there are many overlaps.

But I know that switching my own personal mindset to one of compassion and seeing her underlying fear rather her upfront rage and addressing that fear with more love support connection and encouragement rather than the authoritarian, withdrawal, punitive blame stance that I was immediately triggered into due to my own cPTSD was the real difference. I soothed her rage and recognised her deep shame for this behaviour and understood her self loathing. We do have clear standards of behaviour but you have to break the mother daughter dynamics and cycle and IME putting in the calm caring stuff and descaling did this.

@Sssloou I asked because of my niece. But my DM and DD do all of that already. There's no rage apart from her - sometimes. Always around
Food/eating. Apart from that she's lovely.

Sorry I meant HER DM & DD!

Thanks for asking how things are going. This weekend was easier to manage if I come from a new angle. I took them out for the day and DD did not cope well with it because it was out of her control. When we got to the destination she announced that she was unwell and refused to move from one sitting position. Before, I would have got cross about this but this time I just said sorry you don’t feel well, tell me what you need and just checked on her a few times. I also didn’t over stay past when I thought she would have a strop so it did cut the day shorter but the day wasn’t totally ruined. (she completely changed in mood on the way home!)

She’s been resistant to doing things she is asked but I am not entering into a match where I am trying to win my point across which helps

That's a good strategy. Battles and wars and all that. No point in trying to get her to do something if it doesn't really matter - next time don't cut the day short though! Because it's likely she will get through her discomfort and come and find you all wanting to join in like nothings happened!

I would say that micromanaging teens never ends well. Don't ask her to put on extra clothes/eat food/drink water. She won't die. Just do the basics and the rest eventually she will work out. If you aren't at war she will become better overall and then will be better at looking after herself.

A bit of autonomy for her is a good thing. If she's hungry and didn't come down for dinner it will be in the fridge. She knows how to use a microwave.

I really debated whether to post this but today DD did something really inappropriate and upsetting although I think her underlying intentions were kind of good.... it was all just horrible how it was delivered.

She was asked again to do a chore (hoover) that she had been saying for 3 days she would do. She got very angry about it and said in retaliation that there was something about other child (her sibling) I should know and they would be in trouble for it. She said it was really serious. She then wouldn’t tell anyone what it was and kept running away. I was half panicking half getting cross but trying to stay calm. She didn’t want to tell me with sibling present but obviously sibling was getting distressed about what it might be. I was trying to eat my lunch as I was starving and it was just so stressful all kicking off.

I managed to get her outside and told her to tell me right now. It was actually something really serious that she had known for weeks and weeks. I was so angry (inside) that she did not tell me at the time and had saved it up to use it as a weapon. I explained that things like that should not be secret or used against someone. DD had been into siblings room which is why she didn’t want to admit to it. So protecting herself not sibling.

I’ve spoken to my other child who is quite upset and now say they hate DD but I think they are ok. The issue itself has been discussed between us.

DD doesn’t see that she should have dealt with this differently. Although, I have spoken to her in a non angry way about it and tried to explain it to her I don’t think she really understands it

Oh OP

I'm really sorry to say this, but having a neuro developmental disorder, learning difficulty, or personality disorder (whether with diagnosis or not) does not stop the person also being utterly abusive, utterly manipulative or just utterly plain nasty to you.

She sounds unbearable to live with, regardless of any issues. And you do not have to live with this, now she is an Adult.

You can make her leave your home. You can.

It is hard, but it is doable.

I speak from personal experience. You do not have to sacrifice your future life and happiness, to her abuse, or her atypical behaviour, or what ever she unfortunately has.

If you want to PM me, I'll help if I can

From the outside I see your last post differently maybe to you. Your younger child did something wrong / serious and your older child found out told you eventually.

Why then is she in the wrong? If this issue is so serious why is the blame/anger/frustration on her and not your other child?

Don’t shoot the messenger and all that.

Why does your younger child now hate his old sibling when she did the right thing - do you agree with your younger child’s stance?

She has fundamental communication and social reading issues so it’s no surprise that this part as ever was “unusual” - I am sensing a jump to an older dynamic of automatic emotional escalation and scapegoating of DD?

Another way of looking at it was that she was protecting her sibling, didn’t feel comfortable telling you or she is always on edge consumed with her own fear / confusion - but after a more settled few days started to have a more calm and better connected dynamic with you and thought she would speak?

If you are glad she told you thank her for letting you know and tell your other DC that DD did the right thing - unless going into a siblings room trumps the serious issue for you. Are you glad you know?

• l would suggest to her that she is now eighteen and so an adult and as such she needs to behave in a way fitting with an adult and not like some tantruming toddler demanding her parent's sole attention tbh. I do think that the more you pander to her the more outrageous her demands will become. I'm incredulous that she believes she can dictate who you see and when and who visits the home you undoubtedly pay for. It isn't her place to dictate to you. If you choose to have a guest then she can either be pleasant or she can stay in her room or go to her father's. If she wants feeding then she either eats what you prepare or she feeds herself and at least twice a week she makes food for you both. I wouldn't put up with it and my youngest of five is your daughter's age so I've been there, done that and got the T shirt tbh. I think with children/teens they really do push as far as you will allow and much of the time they are desperate to have boundaries enforced because it makes them feel secure. Safe to say my tolerance levels are pretty low but I suspect the dc enjoyed having boundaries and we are all really close and they all come home regularly. What are her plans now college is over? I'd be framing discussions around that. Explain that if sharing a house with you is so difficult in her eyes then she needs to be making plans for going forward be that going to uni and living in halls or getting a job and looking at house shares because if she doesn't improve her attitude towards you your obligation to house her is now at an end tbh *

This exactly ^

How dare she behave so horribly to her mother whe as far as we can tell here has always done her best for her. Personally l wouldn't have tolerated any of those behaviors without a VERY sharp word about respect and manners.OP you are very kind and clearly love her very much but she needs some tough love.

What will she be like when she is out in the real world, ( as she should be very soon) people will not put up with that attitude.

It did not come across as protection of sibling, more like revenge to try to shift the focus off of DD - an angry reaction. She was shouting at me for asking her to do a chore and got so angry about it shouted at us that she had a secret about sibling that would get sibling into big trouble. It was the delivery of it and she seemed to think it would cause trouble not worry. It was not anything that would get you into trouble. She read it all wrong I think.

Going into and snooping in other people’s private spaces is something DD does a lot, but is intensely angered if she feels someone has even opened the door to her room. The first question she asks if she’s been out is ‘who went in my room’. I didn’t focus on this but sibling is upset about that part. I also told my other child in the circumstances this was not the part to focus on.

DD is older than sibling and there isn’t a good relationship there really. Sibling is sensitive and there is just lots of petty issues between them. Other child doesn’t want a close relationship with their father and DD struggles to understand this. To give sibling their due they usually retreat and don’t fight with DD over this stuff.

I said to DD she was right to tell me though

I suppose it is how you interpret someone else’s actions and intentions

www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/helping-someone-with-borderline-personality-disorder.htm

You might find the above helpful - ignore the specific BPD stuff but it does gives v good generic advice for sustainability supporting yourself, improving / understanding communication and setting boundaries in emotionally volatile situations.

She is a bully she will never apologise even for really awful things even hitting me or throwing things.

She actually reminds me of what my DB was like at that age. He was angry like this and there were so many shouting matches between him and my DM. His mental health has been poor all his adult life and he's now 52 and can barely function.

In his case, he was a victim of sexual abuse, as are my DSis and me. But he's always hero worshipped our F, who was responsible for it happening. (He's been dead for 22 years now.) So your DD idolising her dad isn't at all surprising.

I don't really know how to advise, unfortunately, as my DB's life deteriorated badly after leaving home. But there is support available from the Community Mental Health team and his current GP is great.

And I'm not saying that your DD has problems on that scale. But the behaviour reminds me of what my DB was like at that age. He didn't get the help he needed then, as mental health issues weren't understood back then, but they are now. Your DD needs to access it herself, though, as an adult.

If she refuses to seek help, you shouldn't put up with being her punching bag, though.

I am just catching up on this thread. Your daughter sounds very much like mine, who is diagnosed with ASD and I think has PDA.

It's really really hard. Our relationship is calmer now but she has been in counselling for 4 years! Plus we have learnt how to manage each other.

However it requires a real change in mindset. I think you have seen that with the incident in the Cafe and how she ground to a halt. You managed that well. I thought I might write a few things down so you can see its not just you and her!

For my daughter and other ASD people, everything and every day induces anxiety. The whirring of the fridge, the buzz of some lightbulbs, the neighbours kids screeching. Imagine a coke bottle that has been shaken 10 times before you have even realised it. Then you shake it the 10th time "do your hoovering" and it explodes. You only see the explosion to the hoovering, not the other 10 things. (disclaimer - I don't always know what the 10 things are either!!!)

My daughter has happy, sad and anger. Nothing else. Anxiety is expressed as anger.

She can find it hard to trust people because she is gaslit by normal society every day. She gets told off for

• being inappropriate (no idea why she is inappropriate)
• for being loud (no idea she is loud) etc etc .
• "This is fun" no it absolutely is not!
• "Maybe, later not now" What does that mean? Yes or no please!
  -Telling the truth where we would tell a white lie or fudge it, but then why is lying acceptable?

"tidy your bedroom" is too general for her. She can't process that. I have more luck with "put dirty clothes in laundry basket" then once that is done "hang up clean clothes" then "make bed"

I think your daughter, if she is autistic, is permanently at coke bottle shake 9. So it takes very little to send her over the edge. As parents, we need to get some very thick armour on. My daughter will say anything to win an argument, including telling me to commit suicide as it would make everyone else happy. I believe that row started about laundry! However you can get that anxiety down but it requires hugely different parenting which will be judged by others as weak. But you see with the Cafe incident, just taking away the pressure has an immediate effect.

Hope this helps a bit.

Mittens I am so sorry about your brother and all of you. Often untreated cPTSD leads into addiction to heal pain which is another dark deep level of destruction. PigWhisperer I relate my experience with my DD to yours - others judgement of your expert/professional informed approach to a child with a disability as being “weak” is just ignorance. In my case a friend who had been through this before me just said “you are not dealing with normal” - normal set ups, rules and consequences don’t apply or work - and are mostly counterproductive. There is another way - the goals are the same - kindness and respectful behaviours in a calm and peaceful home. I look at my daughter as having a major emotional/social disability that has her in a state of anxiety and fear. I am not going to add to that - it’s all about de escalation, building back up trust before then striking when the iron is cold for the corrective behaviour stuff.

It’s all incremental and you need to recognise all of the small wins along the way. For my situation it was she didn’t scream and rant this morning - then all day - then for 2 days - a week etc. We got there - I really hope you do too userandmuser