Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Trapped in a toxic mess with drinker in denial

164 replies

smokeorfire · 04/08/2020 07:53

It's been going on for years. Every time I think maybe it'll be different but it's not. I feel now like he's just taking the piss out of me, drinking and being vile, then pretending nothing happened. "Why are you making arguments again?", "That was at the weekend, why are you still going on about it?", "So and so drinks just as much as me, go and give them a row."

And when I try and put "rules" in place he tells me, literally, that he doesn't give a fuck.

I feel manipulated, lied to, like I don't know which way is up.

He'll say he loves me, but the level of spite / indifference / contempt when he turns away from me to open another can feels much more real than any love.

I wanted to write this down. I go round in circles with it. I just want him to choose me over the beer, but it's like I'm being unreasonable ("what more do you want from me?") to even expect such a thing. Why? Because I'm 50? Because I'm a nagging bitch?

I don't know anymore.

OP posts:
Xiaoxiong · 04/08/2020 11:50

Imagine yourself saying to him "You need to leave my house, now. We are no longer a couple and I never want to hear from you again."

What do you think would happen?

You could be free of this horrible person, for good, today.

Sssloou · 04/08/2020 11:52

I agree your “ignoring and getting on with it” - means he has finally silenced you - so he doesn’t have to hear or engage in any reasonable or rational dialogue or rules, or rants of frustration. Life is getting better and better on his agenda. He must be delighted that your DCs are gone 50% of the time and no doubt you shush them and adapt your routines and behaviours in order not to rattle the bear with the sore head.

smokeorfire · 04/08/2020 12:20

@Sssloou, yes i do need to do the decent thing for my children. i don't want them to live in a polluted or blighted home or for their childhood to be trashed by being caught up in their mother's shitshow of a 'relationship'. i neither know or care if he cheats, all the evidence points that way but i can't cope with banging my head against that particular wall of lies.

@ArriettyJones, i need to tell him to go, where he sleeps is his problem. he always makes this huge drama about me 'chucking him out' - much more so than any concern about the end of 'us'.

thank you, everybody.

OP posts:
LovingLola · 04/08/2020 12:22

Is your children’s father aware of what is going on in your house?

ArriettyJones · 04/08/2020 12:24

Just be prepared for him to sit on the front door step pleading. Can you do it when the DC are at their dads?

Sssloou · 04/08/2020 12:43

Do you have support to get you through this bit? Are there friends and family who can come over whilst he packs up? This is your time to call in favours. My guess is that they will already know he is a basket case and will be more than delighted to move him along for you.

Then be proud of yourself for biting the bullet. Spend some time with a therapist trying to understand the people pleasing part of you spirals out of control in intimate relationships and causes so much pain. You don’t need to do this loop again.

Look for equality and kindness and respect in all relationships platonic or intimate - anything less is not good for you.

RandomMess · 04/08/2020 12:51

Invite family or friends around, help you pack up his stuff. Change locks job done.

smokeorfire · 04/08/2020 12:56

i cannot try and make him leave when the children are here.

i am really trying to give my head a slap / shake / whatever. and not to navel gaze or feel sorry for myself.

truly, i don't want to damage my children. i don't know why i persist in enabling his shitty behaviour. but i so much don't want me or my children to be in this loop.

there have been countless times when he was supposed to leave, but didn't. obviously because life here serves his purpose. i hate thinking of him like this, in such stark terms of the role i play in his life. but the stark terms need to be about what i am doing to my children.

again and again, i let him win me round so that he stays and carries on with his rubbish. as if i am the one being demanding / unreasonable / needy. it would be good to feel proud of myself for making a braver decision for me and my children.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 04/08/2020 12:59

When does he leave the house?

Do you have friends and family local that would help you?

smokeorfire · 04/08/2020 13:07

@RandomMess, i want him to pack his own stuff and leave. and i need to make that happen. my family aren't local.

it should be so easy. but it isn't.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 04/08/2020 13:13

Start being realistic.

He will not want to leave and you can't physically force him to pack.

Do you get on ok with your ex? Would he help knowing it's in the best interests of your DC for him to leave?

He is not a nice or reasonable person so why are you expecting him to behave like one?

Have you spoken to Woman's Aid to get their advice and support?

Xiaoxiong · 04/08/2020 13:15

again and again, i let him win me round

This is entirely within your power to change. This time, you will not let him win you round. You will re-read this thread over and over, all the comments on here, imagining all of us MN vipers at your back to help you. You block his number and email and block him on all social media and you put post-its all over your bedroom mirror reminding you what a nasty malicious POS cocklodging alcoholic he is and that he will never change, no matter what he is saying, he will never change. Yes you will need support - post on here daily if you need to and the MN massive will be always be behind you. Even better if you have family and friends you can get on the phone with day or night to help stiffen your spine. Sometimes friends at work or people you don't know as well can be a help in surprising circumstances. Open up and tell people what's going on. There is no shame for you, he is the only one that should be ashamed.

as if i am the one being demanding / unreasonable / needy

You know this is false. You need to repeat it over and over and write it down and post it on the wall. I am not being unreasonable. I am not being needy. I'm worthy and a good person. I am being courageous and brave. I am not smokeorflame, I am on FIRE and I am amazing!!

it would be good to feel proud of myself for making a braver decision for me and my children.

So make that brave decision! I know you can do it!!! Flowers

RandyLionandDirtyDog · 04/08/2020 13:18

You love the person you want him to be but whilst you’re propping him up, he’s not going to miraculously change and realise the error of his ways. That’s simply never going to happen.

Alcoholics are essentially extremely selfish people.

He’s only going to try to stop drinking after he’s hit his rock bottom. His rock bottom is likely to be much lower that you imagine it to be, so let him go.

Unfortunately, you sound quite selfish too because you’re putting your need to have a boyfriend/partner above the welfare of your children.

Why would you do that?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/08/2020 13:22

He has it made with you so will not leave willingly. He saw immense levels of vulnerability/poor self image and worth that could and indeed has been further exploited and used by him.

I would also second the suggestion made here to contact Women’s Aid.

You will likely have to use the police here to get him out of your home.

MorrisZapp · 04/08/2020 13:34

I agree with the pp who took issue with the term 'people pleaser'. I'm aware op didn't use this term but the implication is there.

Yet most of the 'people pleasers' we meet on here are actually 'man pleasers'. They're never children pleasers or frustrated sister pleasers.

This guy is young and hot, but so bloody what. You have kids, you don't have the luxury of trying to fix up a bad boy. Please your kids, not the twat trying to ruin their lives.

EKGEMS · 04/08/2020 13:39

This is a toxic environment for your children to be living in,OP. It would be far better to have a lone parent vs a parent and their partner in an addictive and codependent relationship.

HelenUrth · 04/08/2020 13:40

Nothing is going to change until you change something.

Alcoholism, as has already been said, is progressive. So things are only going to get worse.

He isn't going to change, he likes his life as it is. So it has to be you.

Whatisthisfuckery · 04/08/2020 14:28

OP you’re going to have to work this out on your own. We can all tell you the score on here, but like your boyfriend and his drinking, it’s on you to make the changes.

Actions have consequences though, and so does inaction, and actions or inaction now can have consequences a long way down the line, especially when it comes to your kids.

Good luck. I hope you tell him to leave and stick to your guns. I very much suspect you wn’t, or at least you won’t stick to it, but that is your choice. Just remember that you are also choosing for your kids, and both you and they will have to live with your choices for the rest of your lives. Don’t forget though, children grow into adults, and adults judge the choices of other adults, especially if they happen to be choices that negatively impact them.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/08/2020 14:35

A people-pleaser isn’t just being big-hearted or kind to others. Nor are people-pleasers compromising. People-pleasing differs from accommodating someone though we rather not, because we value the relationship and know that compromise is necessary to sustain it.

People-pleasers don’t have the luxury of choice. Their behaviour has become a lifestyle. It’s compulsive, because they’re unable to say no.

Everyone starts out in life wanting to be safe, loved, and accepted. It’s in our DNA. Some of us figure out that the best way to do this is to put aside what we want or feel and allow someone else’s needs and feelings take precedence. This works for a while. It feels natural, and there’s less outer conflict, but our inner conflict grows. If we’d like to say no, we feel guilty, and we may feel resentful when we yes. We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

Our strategy might create other problems. We may put in extra time at work and try to please the boss but get passed over for a promotion or discover we’re doing work we’re not enjoying at all. We may be very accommodating to family and friends and resent that we’re always the one called upon for help, extra work, or to take care of someone else’s problems.

Our love life might suffer, too. We give and give to our partner, but feel unappreciated or unimportant and that and our needs and desires aren’t considered. We may begin to feel bored, joyless, or mildly depressed. We may miss earlier times when we were happier or more independent. The anger, resentment, hurt, and conflict we always tried to avoid continue to grow. Being alone might appear to be a welcome escape from these challenges, but then we’d end up sacrificing our connection to others, which is what we truly want. Sometimes, it seems like we have to choose between sacrificing ourselves or sacrificing a relationship.

We often feel trapped, but don’t know another way to be. Accommodating others is so ingrained in us that stopping is not only difficult, it’s terrifying. If we look around, we might notice other people who are well-liked and don’t people-please. We may even know someone who is kind or admired and is able to say no to requests and invitations. What’s more, they don’t seem to agonize about it with guilt. How they do that is baffling. We might even envy someone quite popular who doesn’t give a hoot about what others think. If we bother to reflect on all this, we may wonder how we got into such a mess and question our fundamental belief that pleasing is the road to acceptance.

Although there are other people who choose to be co-operative and kind, we don’t feel as if we have a choice. It can be as hard to say no to someone who needs us as it is to someone who abuses us. In either case, we fear it will negatively affect our relationship, and the guilt and fear of rejection or disappointing someone is overwhelming. We may have loved ones or friends who would become indignant and even retaliate if we were to say no. Each time, it gets easier to agree when we rather not or to go along and not object. We can turn into a human pretzel trying to win the love or approval of someone we care for – especially in a romantic relationship.

The problem is that for many of us, our pleasing is more than kindness. It’s our personality style. Some children decide that accommodating their parents’ wishes is the safest way to survive in a world of powerful adults and best way to win their parents acceptance and love. They try to be good and not make waves. “Good” means what parents want. Their parents may have had high expectations, been critical, had rigid rules, withheld love or approval, or punished them for “mistakes,” dissent, or showing anger. Some children learn to acquiesce merely by observing their parents’ actions with each other or another sibling. When parental discipline is unfair or unpredictable, children learn to be careful and cooperative to avoid it. Many of us are more sensitive and have a low tolerance for conflict or separation from parents due to genetic makeup, early interactions with parents, or a combination of various factors.

Unfortunately, people-pleasers are on a path of becoming alienated from their innate, true self. The underlying belief is that who we are isn’t lovable. Instead, we idealize being loved as a means to self-worth and happiness to the point that we crave it. Our need to be accepted, understood, needed, and loved causes us to be compliant and self-effacing. We conclude, “If you love me, then I’m lovable.” “You” comes to mean just about everyone, including people incapable of love!

Preserving our relationships is our uppermost mandate. We strive to be lovable and charitable and reject character traits that we decide won’t serve that goal. We can end up squelching entire chunks of our personality that are incompatible, like showing anger, winning competitions, exercising power, getting attention, setting boundaries, or disagreeing with others. Even when not asked, we willingly give up separate interests that would mean time away from a loved one. The slightest look of disappointment (which we may inaccurately infer) is enough to deter us from doing something on our own.

Assertiveness feels harsh, setting limits feels rude, and requesting that our needs be met sounds demanding. Some of us don’t believe we have any rights at all. We feel guilty expressing any needs, if we’re even aware of them. We consider it selfish to act in our self-interest. We may even have been called selfish by a selfish parent or spouse. Our guilt and fear of abandonment may be so strong that we stay in an abusive relationship rather than leave.

smokeorfire · 04/08/2020 14:50

thank you. there is so much here i don't know how to reply to everyone. the truth is i have to make the change, i know that. for my children.

@Xiaoxiong thank you for your belief. i certainly don't feel like fire or amazing. i feel broken to be honest.

i never went into this wanting to fix a 'bad boy', but every which way i look at it i just wonder what the living hell is the matter with me for even beginning to tolerate any of this.

@MorrisZapp, i see what you're saying. i tend to try to please everyone, and find myself caught in the middle invariably fucking up having no confidence in my thought processes or decisions.

but as everyone is saying, i'm not particularly relevant in this but my children are, their wellbeing now and in the future.

i haven't spoken to women's aid. i am frightened to involve the police.

OP posts:
backseatcookers · 04/08/2020 15:03

Is the children's father on the scene at all? I would suggest that they stay with him at least for a few weeks so you can safely remove him from the home. I understand that this an awful situation for you, but you have a choice. They don't. And at the moment they're a sort of emotional human shield that's enabling you to stop following through on ending it with him.

DiscontinuedModelHusband · 04/08/2020 15:14

why are you frightened to involve the police?

you have done nothing wrong at all!

Xiaoxiong · 04/08/2020 15:19

Why are you frightened to involve the police? What do you think will happen? I'm not saying that as a sarcastic thing, honestly - I'm trying to get at what you think will happen. If you can articulate and name the fear, that is the best way to help think of strategies to deal with it.

Sometimes I find it helpful to think through the worst case scenario, and then think - is that realistic. What could I do in that situation. Is that really going to happen. 99.9% of the time the fear is so much worse than the reality especially if you've lost confidence.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/08/2020 15:28

I was also going to ask why you are so frightened to involve the police here.

Xiaoxiong · 04/08/2020 15:29

i just wonder what the living hell is the matter with me for even beginning to tolerate any of this

That doesn't matter. The time for whys and wherefores of how you got into this situation is not now. It's after he's gone and you have blocked him every which way to Sunday. Then you can start thinking about how and why that happened and how to prevent it ever happening again.

For now, I think backseat's right - have the kids go stay with family or their dad, or even a neighbour or a school friend (again, you will be amazed who will stand up to help you in these situations, sometimes it's the last person you'd expect!) Then focus on getting this man out of your house and your life. Motivate yourself by the thought that when they come home to you, he and his stuff will be gone - it will be the first day of the rest of your lives without this ghastly millstone of a man dragging you all down with him.

You can do it! I know you don't feel like you can, if you felt like it you would have done it already so you're going to have to fake it till you make it. Pretend that you're that person. Imagine you're playing a part, like an actress. What would that kind of person do. How would they react.

And you'll wake up the next morning and realise - he is gone. I AM that person!

Swipe left for the next trending thread