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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Marital rape?

174 replies

MandB23 · 25/06/2020 09:33

For a while I didn’t call it what it was, but deep down I know that my husband has raped/sexually assaulted me multiple times.
It started in about 2018 where he would start having sex with me in the night. He would do it after an argument. It was odd.
We would have a horrible argument, go to bed and then within an hour or so he would do it. I would generally just lie there and let it happen. I didn’t say no but usually I’m quite an active, enthusiastic participant and myself, I can’t imagine having sex with someone who is just lying there. He would then get off and just go to sleep.
After a few times, I had to speak to him to say - please can you not do that. I mentioned the word consent - as in, how can I consent if I’m asleep when it starts. He kicked off royally. I never used the word rape but he started with “how can I rape you when we’re married”. The minute he said that, I knew that I was wasting my time talking to him. But I made it clear that I don’t give consent, that I’ve become fearful of him in the night and I’m waking at every little movement and I have a feeling of dread. I wake up the next day feeling empty and numb and sad. And I wanted him to stop doing it.
I used to enjoy night time sex. But at that point we were in a bad place and I just felt taken advantage of.
Anyway, once I clearly communicated that I don’t consent to that and even if I’m not saying no - it’s because I freeze and go a bit numb when it happens. But it carried on. And then I knew it was rape. Because I had told him that I did not want that but I don’t have the confidence to say no at the time.
I got pregnant - from one of these times. Because we weren’t having any other kind of sex. the baby was still born. I had sepsis and was quite unwell. I thought he would have learnt from this but the day I got home (3 days post birth) he did it again. That’s the first time I stopped him and the last time he tried it. I was in shock - like how are you doing this now??? But I was sore and bleeding and just said “what are you doing?” The next day was a huge argument when I brought it up. Going mad again - saying “oh you’re calling me a rapist, (baby’s name) must have been a rape baby then” just horrible stuff. We were in the car and he kept driving erratically and he was just so so angry and horrible about it.
It hasn’t happened since. But I can’t get over it. I feel anger about it still. I want to talk to him about it - like ask why?? But I know I can’t talk about the subject. Just more and more I know that what he did was wrong and I’m not sure I can let it go.

I don’t know what I’m writing this for really. I’ve just got an overwhelming sense of dread for the day ahead when I’m thinking about this and how I have to pretend I’m fine.

OP posts:
ememem84 · 26/06/2020 10:47

Fair enough. That's the way you see it.

As I said, it wasn't a brag.

Prettybluepigeons · 26/06/2020 11:02

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Chungus · 26/06/2020 11:06

I think she should have some kind of counseling about the phone incident tbh, or you should at least get professional advice about how to deal with it. She may not have understood it then, but she will probably remember it and both of your reactions to it, and who knows what that could do.

Chungus · 26/06/2020 11:07

In the future I mean, when she works out what it was she saw.

Tigersneeze · 26/06/2020 11:20

brave of you to seek support here. good for you to speak and seek help. this is a very hard step because you are allowing yourself to see the truth.

like ask why??

because he likes to dominate you
because he likes to remind you his right over your body succeeds your right
because he likes to rape you

But I know I can’t talk about the subject.

you did a brave fist step and talked about it here. continue sharing. call rape organisations to get advice. call woman's aid. stop telling your parter you're doing this - like you said he is using it as a stuck to beat you with, he belittles you. he thinks maternal rape is legal - well he is wrong.

I don’t know what I’m writing this for really. I’ve just got an overwhelming sense of dread for the day ahead when I’m thinking about this and how I have to pretend I’m fine.

you're writing this because your survival instinct is kicking in. you know it's getting worse. you watch yourself being scared. you shared information with him that you thought would shock him and would change his behaviour- he didn't and it confirmed he is only interested in dominating you.

please keep talking to us, organisations, maybe friends and family when you are ready. Find help to leave him. you deserve better

stella47 · 26/06/2020 11:36

I was reluctant to tell a friend that I was having difficulties and thinking of splitting up with an ex, as we'd all been friends and she thought he was a lovely guy. But as soon as I mentioned what he'd done (it wasn't as bad as this), she immediately said "that's awful, I didn't know he was like that" and was completely on my side.

BendyLikeBeckham · 26/06/2020 11:44

OP, I understand. I have been through something similar, though not as bad as your situation.

He won't change. I promise you that is the truth. He won't see the need for him to change, or he just cannot. Either way, the only control you have over the situation is over your own actions. It is easy to become paralysed with indecision because of fear of the unknown, of the sunk costs fallacy, cognitive dissonance and from trauma bonding. Google those last three phrases.

Also don't slip into codepedency where you think its your job to fix him. It isn’t. And you can't. There is zero chance that you can make him understand your feelings, or change his behaviour.

He is violent. Repeat those words out loud every day. He is violent. When he forces his dick into you, when he drags you and pins you down, when he punches walls, when he throws things, when he menaces you and your DD, when he intimidates and tantrums and controls and punishes.

You can turn yourself inside out trying to understand him. I did too. I learned he was probably a narcissist, a sociopath or had a personality disorder. But really, none of that matters because you can't change it. He is who he is, and that involves being nasty, violent and abusive. And he doesn't care about you or your DC. Not really. He will say he does but he only loves himself.

Sorry, but it is a reality that you and your DC are being abused. You are not taking steps to prevent harm to them. You've got some knowledge of safeguarding, so you know the implications of this.

It doesn't matter that sometimes he is nice and buys them an ice cream, if sometimes he also punches walls and verbally abuses their mother in front of them.

I understand that it takes a lot of strength to make this stop, because leaving him is the only way you will make it stop. Nothing you say or do while remaining in a relationship with him will make it stop.

Your DC can have supervised access with him afterwards, if that is appropriate. They can still have a relationship with their father, but living with him is bad and harmful for them. You must accept this. Your DD is trauma bonded. Separating for her just means both parents live apart. But she will be safe and so will you be.

In the end, I got the strength to leave him for my DC, not for myself. My self worth was ground down so much I couldn't do it for myself. Please find it in yourself to do it for your DC.

And you don't have to do it alone. Women's Aid, Rape Crisis etc will help you.

Please also do the Freedom Programme online. It is very cheap and easy to do and will be an eye opener for you. It was for me.

I cannot tell you how amazing and free I felt the first night on my own. My space, my bed, my house was my own. I did not have to suffer any more tension, arguments, fear or abuse. I felt free, happy and utterly relieved. My DC thanked me for leaving him. Hold the idea of that feeling in your mind and please take steps to make it happen.

1235kbm · 26/06/2020 16:36

OP I suggest you try counselling in order to talk this through with someone. Your posts are reeling with shock and cognitive dissonance and you've been in denial for a long time from the sounds of it.

He's abusive and sexually assaulting you and he's not going to stop. OP this isn't going to get better and it's more than likely going to get worse as his behaviour is escalating.

You could try the online chat facility at Rape Crisis which is anonymous to clarify what you're hearing here and perhaps try BACP for a counsellor in order to discuss what's going on and help process it.

It's typical that an abuser is loved and well liked by all around them. They tend to be very manipulative (you're still there after all) and it's easier to carry on than face the fact that you're sharing a bed with a rapist.

Children love their parents OP, irrespective of who they are. You don't keep your daughter in the same house as a rapist and abuser because she loves her dad. You're the adult here and it's your job to protect her from abusers, even if it's her own father.

The best way of leaving is to plan things quietly and discreetly because he may seriously harm you (not that rape isn't serious enough) if he thinks you're out of his control. You will need the help and support of a domestic abuse organisation as well but take it one step at a time.

BobbyTheVetIsMyHero · 26/06/2020 17:09

@MandB23

You women(?) are amazing. I wish I knew people like this in real life. The scary thing is - people around us think he is amazing. I only have a dad. My dad adores him. I’m just scared. Of leaving. Of what that means and what I do. And how I survive. I feel stuck in the middle right now. Knowing what the right thing is but I somehow don’t have the strength!!! It’s taken me years to get here. So I feel that I’ve made some progress. I just don’t feel brave enough to do what I need to do.
If you can expect this amount of support from total strangers just think about how your family, who know and love you, would be able to support you if they knew what was happening. I bet you do know people like this in real life OP, if only they knew what you're going though.
BobbyTheVetIsMyHero · 26/06/2020 17:10

Sending lots of good thoughts your way ThanksThanks

NoMoreDickheads · 26/06/2020 17:34

I downloaded a PDF of the Bundy book and I took screenshots of the sections that applied to him. I make the mistake of seeing us as a team and that if I can show him the information and get through to him about how his actions have made me feel - that change might come.

I wouldn't mention this stuff to him OP. He could turn nasty.

As to childcare when you leave- if you can't afford it you'll be eligible for help with it. xxx

TenShortStories · 26/06/2020 17:59

You worry how you'd cope if you left, which is quite normal to do but is totally the wrong focus. Leaving will be tough but things will fall into place in ways you can't imagine yet.

The big worry needs to be how you'd cope if you stayed - frighten yourself in to action by considering that! This is a situation that has been slowly escalating over years. That's means it WILL get still worse the more time passes. He's demonstrated he can be cruel to your daughter. That will get worse too. She may continue to idolise him, which is rotten for you, but one day the penny will drop and if you are separated then you will be able to provide her a safe space well away from him.

You've given him a chance. He's shown you he's not interested in your feelings or in changing. Getting away is the best thing you can do now Flowers

category12 · 26/06/2020 18:11

Your dad wouldn't adore him if he knew he was raping you. (Unless there's something very wrong with your dad).

Fiveasidefootballfamily · 26/06/2020 18:16

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IdblowJonSnow · 26/06/2020 18:18

Please leave op. There is no growing back from this.
Is there anyone you can stay with, do you have any other kids? I'd also be tempted to report him to the police but that is your call to make.
Please don't live in fear anymore. There is nothing to be done with this man, he's a monster.
Really so sorry for the loss of your baby. Flowers

CodenameVillanelle · 26/06/2020 18:20

Your daughter doesn't adore him she's scared of him! She appeases him and treats him like she adores him to try to stop him being vile to her. That's how children keep themselves safe when they live with an abuser.

DandyMandy · 26/06/2020 18:26

Cannot believe there's someone on here trying to justify rape. "You could have just said no. You didn't say anything" WTF. Talk about missing the point entirely. You can say no to these men until you're blue in the face, they DO NOT care that you don't want to have sex. They will rape because they want to no matter what the woman says to them.

MashedPotatoBrainz · 26/06/2020 18:41

OP I've been in your situation and I am very worried about you and your children. This man is very dangerous and a threat not just to you but to your children. If you can't end it for yourself, do it for them.

I still can’t get it out of my head that for my kids it would be better for us to be together.

Your children know what is going on. Do you really, hand on heart think it's better for them to grow up watching their mummy being abused by their father? Do you have any idea of the damage that is being done to them? Children learn from the parents. My own daughter has told me how she judges how her boyfriends treat her against how her stepdad treats me. Is this the type relationship you envisage in you daughter's future? If not, show her how to be strong and walk away.

My daughter idolises him. Favours him every time.

She's learnt her lesson well hasn't she?

She doesn’t seem scared of him.

She bloody well should be, and the fact that she isn't is testament to the damage already done to her. Terrifying behaviour is normal to her.

I know this is harsh. I don't intend to cause you more distress. I just hope it's harsh enough to shake you out of the stupor you're in and see the reality before you. The only amount of abuse acceptable in a relationship is NONE.

MandB23 · 26/06/2020 18:50

I have battled with the idea that I didn’t stop it.
People react differently.
I froze in all honesty.
The first time, I went along with it and just kind of lay there. We had just had a horrible argument and to be honest I was in a daze. I was still asleep when it started. I couldn’t have given consent. And considering we had just had an argument, I don’t think it would have been fair for him to assume consent.
Then as it continued, I became fearful. Not fearful, but it was almost like a learn response to just wait for it to finish.
I brought it up after 3/4 times when I realised it was having an impact on me the following day. I would be zoned out at work and I couldn’t get it off my mind. It was so out of the ordinary for us.
So I spoke about it. And it became an argument. Where he blamed me. And mocked me for my use of the word consent. Using marriage as a reason why consent was assumed.
It continued even when I had very clearly asked him to not do that again. I explained that I’ve become afraid. If he moved his leg or touched me in any way then I would feel nervous. I would try to pretend I was asleep to see if he would stop but he wouldn’t. So I would just wait for it to finish but didn’t involve myself whatsoever. I started to ask about it the following day after every time. He would act as though he doesn’t remember. But he would get angry. Never sorry. Never upset or showing empathy.
For some reason - I didn’t have it in me to stop him in the moment. It’s like I wanted to but the words just didn’t come.
I only found that strength when I was bleeding and in pin after giving birth.
I have no doubt in my mind that he knew fully well that I did not want it.
And in saying all that I really don’t know why I still try to see the good in him.

I confided in his mum last year. After I had some issues following the loss of our baby and one morning after an argument I was so upset that I couldn’t bring myself to get dressed and take my daughter to school. So I rang my mother in law. I trusted her.
I found out recently that she has told her family and they have called me a liar and every name under the sun. They brought my baby into it. Said I was disgusting for saying things about my baby. I never did. I told her what he called my baby. Our baby. And how much that hurt me.
He obviously didn’t correct them and now we don’t speak.

OP posts:
MashedPotatoBrainz · 26/06/2020 18:54

The one thing you don't have to do is justify why you reacted to being raped the way you did. You reacted in a way that kept you 'safe' in a situation where he could have killed you. Do not doubt yourself on that!

1235kbm · 26/06/2020 18:56

Please stop justifying yourself OP. Being blamed for rape is APPALLING behaviour and completely inexcusable. Shame on that poster.

It's well known that those enduring rape freeze which is a survival mechanism. It's your mind's way of staying alive basically. It's perfectly normal.

OP the MIL incident is a perfect example of how manipulative he is and no reflection on you. To have added to that terrible loss is unforgiveable.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Please reach out for support.

category12 · 26/06/2020 18:56

Freezing is a perfectly normal response, please don't pay any attention to what that person said, I'm sorry you saw it.

MandB23 · 26/06/2020 18:57

I am making plans to leave.
Over the last few weeks - increasingly, I dislike him.
Even when it’s ‘good’ which it has been for at least 1/2 weeks without any arguments - I’m still just seeing him for what he is.
Which for me is huge.
I know I sound pathetic. I know what I would say to my friends. I know.
For some reason I want him to change. I want my family and I want the him I knew and I don’t want to let go of it. And I try and try to work on us and help him and change my own behaviour.
But at this moment, I just can’t see the good. And this has been this way for the past 2 weeks or so. Since he walked out and I didn’t want him back. I was content.
BuT he came back.
I am plodding on and I’m making plans to leave. I think it will take me months if I’m honest. My only Hope is that my mindset doesn’t change in that time.
I have my elderly nan living With me. I need him out of here. I can’t leave here. I can’t leave her.
I don’t want to go to the police. But I will put something in place that means he can’t be in this house.
I just can’t do it yet.
In a way. I’m hoping how detached I’m feeling means that we won’t have any arguments. Because I don’t care enough to even say anything to him.
We shall see.
Thank you all.
I don’t mind blunt. It’s obviously hard to hear and accept. But I understand what people are saying. I would feel the same way.
I’ve learnt recently about Co-dependency and that rings true for our relationship. I’m reading and learning and trying to focus on myself right now.
But it’s really hard to pretend. I’m usually quite out spoke. So pretending I’m fine with him is really hard.

OP posts:
MashedPotatoBrainz · 26/06/2020 19:02

OP you need to contact Women's Aid and with their help and support either leave with your children or get him to leave, which ever is safer.

Then file for divorce and close the door permanently on him, his MIL or anyone else who fails to see how utterly vile and abusive he is. Build a new 'family' around you of people who love and support you, people who build you up instead of tearing you down. It can be done OP, I'm proof of that.

When you leave/kick him out and you know in your heart and soul that this time it's for good you will feel amazing, like you're walking air because finally a massive soul destroying weight has been lifted off you.

justforthecake · 26/06/2020 19:04

I guarantee that not everyone thinks he is a lovely guy.
I know men who are the life and soul of parties, everyone's best mate and social coordinator in the holiday hotel round the pool etc but are vile, abusive and aggressive at home.
People do see through them and people will see through your husband OP.

Your daughter has learnt how to behave to keep herself safe. Just like you have in not saying anything during the rapes.

You wouldn't marry a rapist and make your children live with one but you are living with one right now.

He has shown other red flags by exposing your dd to porn, instead of being mortified and talking about it calmly to mitigate damage he reacted violently. This is grooming.

He openly leers at young women- younger than you are comfortable with.

Your dd will be that age soon.