Anyone else parent with someone with no empathy? How do you cope?

[notaprettygirl]

My children's father has almost no empathy to an extraordinary degree. He also has a strong belief he is always right. He is unable to understand other people's thoughts, feelings or behaviour. He doesn't hold other people in mind, at all. Not even his own children. This has all sorts of implications. He won't, for example, keep our youngest safe from cars as he just forgets he is meant to, and gets distracted by his own thoughts, leaving the youngest to wander into the road. As he is always right, he never learns from these times as he will never admit to making a mistake. He will actively deny demonstrable and provable reality to insist he is right. He appears to genuinely believe his blatant lies.

He is unable to read his children's emotions properly. So if one of our children has become emotionally overwhelmed, often by something his dad has done, their Dad will not calm his own emotions to deal with the child, but instead becomes emotionally overwhelmed by the child's anger or upset, and kicks off himself, making the child utterly distraught. Or if our toddler is upset, and he goes to comfort him and the toddler says, 'I want Mummy', he will respond by becoming angry and shouting ' Fuck this shit, what's wrong with me? Why don't you want me?' and storming out of the room, slamming the door. This is because he can only understand his own emotions.
He wants the emotional reward from his child being comforted by him and he cannot cope with rejection. He can't see the hurt child, he can only see his self and his own feelings.

Since having children I can really see that his behaviour is like that of a toddler - poor emotional regulation due to not being able to empathise with others.
I have asked him to go to GP for an assessment and see if there is any treatment- I have read about specific treatments for people who sound like him. I don't know if he will. And even if he does, he is completely unable to accept he has a problem.

I know people will helpfully ask why I had children with this man. Of course I regret it and is causes me deep pain that this seriously dysfunctional man is their Father. I didn't realise how bad he was till we had children. We had our own separate lives and got on well and there just weren't many things to bring us into conflict.
When things are calm and well he is fine, he is loving and affectionate (or appears that way, I realise now that these feelings are not real selfless love but him enjoying the feeling of being in love). But having children has caused stress he can't cope with and a need for attunement and othering someone else that he just can't do.

I don't know how to handle this anymore.

It really pisses me off when people wheel out the autistic card.
austistic people have empathy. My ds is autistic.

Narcissists and psychopaths don't. It's a massive red flag, because the most horrible NT person still has empathy.

Even if you H is the nicest, best parent in the world, it's hugely damaging to your children to be parented by parents in this kind of a relationship. This is what they're learning from relationships. Read the Lundy book mentioned upthread.

but really? if he doesn't have empathy, and reduces your child to tears, and you dislike him quite so much, why are you with him? it will only get worse as you, he and the kids get older.

Emotional unintelligence or emotional disregard ? You’re describing a personality disordered individual here. It seems there are other past threads which have concluded similar. What do you hope to achieve from this thread? This is above Mumsnet pay grade.

Op - you cannot stay in this situation. Speak to Women's Aid for their advice, contact a solicitor who specialises in family law, get hold of social services for their advice.

Desist from using ASD right now as any sort of potential reason for his behaviours!!!.

ASD does not present at all like this in terms of lack of empathy. I would go as far to state he is nowhere on any autistic spectrum at all and that is also why he has not undergone assessment.

Your H has about as much emotional intelligence as a six year old and his emotional development stalled somewhere around that age too. Narcissists, on the other hand, apparently spend the rest of their lives in this state of highly volatile ambivalence and uncertainty.

You for your own part are not protecting your children by at all remaining with him under the same roof and you're being emotionally harmed too.

What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy.

Lacking empathy is a profound disturbance to the narcissist's thinking (cognition) and feeling (affectivity). Even when very intelligent, narcissists can't reason well. They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words.

Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about.) And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit -- it's a cognitive deficiency. Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really pissed off by being lied to or lied about.

My mum stayed with my abusive father to act as mediator. All that meant was that I never had any time away from him, to question his behaviour and develop normal boundaries. It was so damaging to me and it took years of therapy for me to find a healthy relationship.

You can't fix him. There won't be a lightbulb moment. If he poisons or cannot care for the children then you go to court and demonstrate that, with evidence ideally.

If he poisons the children against you.

Awful moment for my phone to eat half the sentence

I meant to add that my ex was much like this, except I didn't have kids with him. I read in the paper that he had been diagnosed with Antisocial narcissistic personality disorder. He was a narcissistic sociopath.

I also think your husband sounds like he has a personality disorder. He is unlike anyone with autism I have ever known

Sounds like it could be some autistic tendencies to me. Can’t “read” some emotions and situations and others’ needs. Intransigence. Can be easily distracted frustrated or angered. He might “care” but he can’t express in normal or effective way in relation to his children.

The difference of opinions is interesting.
I think he sounds very much like he could be on the autism spectrum. Lack of empathy is part of the diagnostic criteria. Other features you have described; lack of emotional regulation and insight into his own behaviour, lack of forward planning and also lack of reflection on past behaviour, an inability to change, inability to see things from another perspective, lack of interest in social pursuits, perfectionistic behaviour.
I’m not saying all people on the autism spectrum present like the OPs husband but nonetheless these are all features.
OP I can see your dilemma about leaving. Your boys need your protection and can learn from your ability to manage the situation. Not ideal but without you there, your kids would be at risk of greater emotional harm.

That was my bil. Utterly oblivious to any suffering or problems his kids or his wife. She lasted until my nephew stood up to his father and told him they’d be better off without him. Gc wanted to know him, he treats them the same, so they no longer bother either.

Please don't advise op to stay. A lot of women stay thinking that's the way to protect their child. It bloody well isn't!

A prior poster got it right when they said you have to at least provide one home that is completely free of and safe from this person. And, demostrate that women should not stay with men who are cold and abusive.

If op stays with this man, she only teaches her children to accept his indifferent and selfish behaviour as the norm. Meaning that they in turn, grow up to accept the same in partners. And spend their whole lives miserable.

If it helps, mine was very interested in keeping contact with DS while he was single, as soon as his social life became more active he started looking interest and contact stopped.

These people just care about their own interests, and they will leave you alone if you appear “boring” to them. So the big trick is to avoid getting them into competitive mode because that’s when they become what you fear.

The OP sounds like a textbook description of a narcissist. Google overt and covert narcissism and see if either of those descriptions match. The covert type isn’t the well known flamboyant type that everyone thinks of when you say narcissist.

If one of the descriptions fit, then you need to educate yourself on narcissistic parents and the impact on the child.

Lastly, search for recommendations about how to leave a narcissist before you leave. You need to prepare yourself as much as possible. There’s some really good advice such as going grey rock. ‘But we took you to stately homes’ thread on the Relationships section on mumsnet May also be useful for you.

In the process of divorcing a covert narcissist (by my reckoning after a ton of research). ZERO empathy for me or our 3 kids. Couldn't give a shit. Raised by parents (and especially a mother) who treated him like the centre of the universe and think the sun shines out his ass. Utterly incapable of acting like a parent with the kids when they act like normal kids e.g. express an opinion. Cannot deal with any kind of rejection of him or the younger ones wanting mummy instead. Can't begin to conceive that instances of rejection e.g. when upset or scared is likely a direct result of his petulant behaviour /sulking/tantrums and intolerance towards them. Zero insight that I may have left him because of the 2 decades of emotional abuse. It took me many years to realise what I was dealing with but I got out at the end of last year and I'm getting stronger every day. Like so many pp have said, the largest red flag is the lack of empathy. These guys just don't (can't) care in any meaningful way.

This sounds so like my situation with my OH. Lack of empathy, putting himself first, incapable of prioritizing the kids. Initially I was very much in denial and intent on staying with him to minimize the damage to them but after much deliberation I have come to realise he is a narcissist abuser and incapable of change and that staying with him is indeed highly damaging to the kids as they grow up. I have been working with women's aid who have been absolutely brilliant at guiding me on this journey. It has taken 1 year of counselling and support and access to legal advice for me to realise this OP. I totally get where you are coming from and rationalised it the same way but my only advice to you would be inform yourself and reach out for support and counselling as this will help you establish the facts of your situation and enable you to make informed choices to move on and do what'sbest for your kids and yourself. Best of luck.

My ex is a narcissist and I completely understand your dilemma. I ended up staying because there was no other way of protecting her (we were in a complex overseas/visa situation). If I'd left he would have absolutely messed with her head. She's 18 in a few months and I'm working on my exit - I got referred to a psychologist to help me work out how best to separate. He will react very badly to the loss of narcissistic supply and probably threaten suicide.

It took me a long time to realise he was a narcissist, but once I had then everything fell into place. Educate yourself as much as possible and get support from a psychologist if you can. As your DCs are much younger it might be worth seeking advice on custody when dealing with a NPD parent is involved (although he won't ever admit he has NPD). Your concerns about leaving them with him are very valid.

I've been using the grey rock method mentioned earlier in the thread with a reasonable amount of success. It's not recommended for very long term use though as you have to effectively stop being yourself. However, trying to make sense of what he does logically will drive you mad, because it doesn't make sense, because his behaviour is all about him and feeding his narcissism. For years when we'd disagree I would always find myself saying 'but this isn't about you'. But to him, it was!

Here's an interesting read from some UK based lawyers about NPD parents:

www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/insights/blogs/family-law-blog/children-divorce-narcissism-and-parental-alienation-the-perfect-storm

The difference of opinions is interesting. I think he sounds very much like he could be on the autism spectrum.

Or on that other “lack of empathy” spectrum, that has on one end narcissism and on the other psychopathy.

OP google the condition that used to be diagnosed as "Aspergers Syndrome", and how it can present in men. This now falls under the high functioning autism umbrella but has distinct features which have strong similarities to what you describe.

This doesn't mean you stay. It's just information to help you cope with him and manage the situation as best you can. You need to leave.

As a PP said, you leaving will allow the children time and space away from him. I've seen this in my own split - I thought that I couldn't leave, but you living separately from him does truly provide the children respite from the emotional abuse when they are with you.

OP google the condition that used to be diagnosed as "Aspergers Syndrome", and how it can present in men. This now falls under the high functioning autism umbrella but has distinct features which have strong similarities to what you describe.

Please give it up. This shit is really distressing for autistic people. Being a cunt is it one of the criteria.

Or on that other “lack of empathy” spectrum, that has on one end narcissism and on the other psychopathy.

This.

Like I just said, it's incredibly distressing for autistic people when someone posts about an abusive partner and posters jump on the autism bandwagon.

Yes, lack of empathy can be a trait, but what OP describes runs a lot deeper than simply lacking empathy. Even people who do lack empathy understand not to be a cunt. Just because they don't feel it doesn't mean that they are deliberately nasty.

What curtainsforme wrote. Autism does not equal lack of empathy at all nor is a lack of empathy one of its criteria for diagnosis.

I think that OPs H has some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder, NPD is such a disorder. He will never seek any sort of assessment also because he likely feels there is nothing wrong with him (he has also stated as much).

How old are they? Roughly?

Does anyone know at what age children get a say in whether they go and visit the other parent?

I bet he wouldn’t actually want them 50%.

At the moment does he never have them unsupervised?

A PP alluded to flagging up his neglectful incidents somewhere. If you can do that then you could prevent him being allowed to look after them maybe?

I think you need to be planning to leave him and work out how he doesn’t get to look after them/or they’re old enough for it not to be such an issue.