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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Dating Thread 189 - The One Where We Date Without Meeting or Leaving Home

998 replies

JeSuisPrest · 12/05/2020 12:46

The Rules:

  1. The first rule about the dating thread is don't talk about it with people you're dating.
  2. Develop a thick skin.
  3. Do not invest emotionally too soon.
  4. It's all BS until it actually happens.
  5. Trust your gut instinct.
  6. People vanishing, lying & being generally weird is not your fault.
  7. Know your worth.
  8. If it's not fun, stop.
  9. Loo update is mandatory.
10. No dating the thread. 11. Treat others as you'd like to be treated 12. Any relationship you have that could get ruined by having a conversation about your feelings, standards and/or expectations wasn't really stable enough to begin with 13. The things you choose to ignore/ tolerate now are the reasons you will break up in the future 14. OLD can get very time consuming. Keep doing other activities you enjoy.

Optional: Please give your irons (potential dates you are talking to) nicknames like Mr Scottish. Initials are allowed (Mr S) when you are an item.

OP posts:
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cravingthelook · 22/05/2020 10:45

@Whatdoidowithmylifenow

One of the things I'm doing with my therapist (although it was a thing that discussed with her and it evolved into this) is to keep a little more book and write positive affirmation in it for myself. So write a bullet point for something you are good at, something you are pleased at yourself for doing etc.

I share mine with my therapist but you can keep yours private if you chose.

Even something small, 'I like how I'm organised enough to remember and recognise the birthdays of those people that are important to me even when life is busy' is one of my latest.

My therapist would then talk about it and say why she thinks it's positive. She says that something like that would suggest that I'm thoughtful and caring. IYSWIM.

I've got a favourite song by Ward Thomas called Who I'm not. It's lyrics give lots of reasons why the writer is saying I don't know who I am, but I know who I'm not.
I see my book... it's called the million reasons... as me defining the person I am and want to be. When reading these things I feel proud of the choices I make. I still make the wrong choice sometimes but that's ok. I'm essentially documenting my worth and it's very clear to me now it's got nothing to do with how I look. Grin

The stupid thing is ... the million reasons started as a thing I did with Mr Swan when he was doubting himself. At least I'm using it in a positive way now.

HairyArsedMan · 22/05/2020 11:35

Thanks @Menora, @NoBloodyFighting and @Whatdoidowithmylifenow I'm afraid I'm going to get a bit rambly myself in the spirit of helping maybe ? I'm not a professional and I think the best source of help is with someone trained in these things.

I think those moments of deflation when you've been back in contact with an ex- that abused you are going to make you doubt yourself with respect to relationships. Those feelings of shame; what you put up with and why you put up with it rise up. Will you do it again the same way ?

I try to have a friendly and compassionate relationship with my ex- mainly for my sons benefit but that does mean I have to suppress quite a lot of stuff. It feels unfair that she gets free reign to do or say things that are pretty terrible while I maintain neutrality. My DS said to me the other day "mum says you only took me to get toys when I was little to make me love you". When you hear that your child's memories are being undermined like that, it kills you - never mind the contempt it carries for you.

My way of dealing with it has been to recognise rather than demonise. She's someone in a lot of pain, it's very clear in the way that she lashes out at other people's happiness. And I think to myself what a horrific thing to have to live with. On the other hand I have to live with myself and understand how much absorption of this I can undertake safely.

I've been learning much about what my default mode is (being blocked, tensing and freezing mentally, shame) and how it really goes back a very long way. This has gone some way to enabling me to step back a little bit from those feelings of retreating and downgrading of myself. I get a favourite bit of music lined up to blast out and switch myself out of it or knock out a run in a nice place - to both distract and get present with myself again.

That deals with the symptoms but not the root causes. I've alluded to some of this in previous posts but never really gone there, because after all, this is a dating thread. And, some of these are things I've not told anyone. I'm starting to get them out now and it is helping, lots. It's intensely personal stuff and please don't read on if you are remotely triggered by abusive behaviours.

I emerged into adolescence in a house where my mums underwear was inspected when she came home from work by her affair partner. The repercussions of this were carried out in plain sight. I had to stop him from strangling her one time. There were several other awful nights of violence and upset. Then come the morning we carried on as normal. Everything was undisclosed, unaccounted for, internalised and hidden in the cold light of day. Make no mistake, I recognise it was disgusting abuse and even now it turns my stomach to think of it. I left home as soon as I could and feel ashamed that I did even though it came with my mum and sisters blessings. But that is, I think, where it happened, where my fallback behaviour was formed. It has impacted me at the most intimate of times in a relationship, with a tension that forms when very intense emotions are involved or something takes me back to those times.

All I ever wanted was to be better than everything I experienced when growing up; that made me the tryer, the giver in relationships and I ended up with someone that gave me endless rope to hang myself with. I understand completely @WhatdoIdowithmylifenow that feeling of not being good enough when someone repeatedly tells you over years and years, nope, try again, and once more, with contempt. The women I was with in previous relationship (post ltr) had the same feelings that she wasn't good enough and when we broke up I asked her to consider what she needed to do to feel good enough. It wasn't enough for me to say it to her; she couldn't take that compliment from me.

In some ways I wish I could just put myself out there on something like Fab and admit "I doubt that I can manage a relationship, but I'm fit, healthy, harmless, without any bad intentions and I need to soothe and be soothed" but I think this may be another way of hiding things away and denying myself (and someone else actually) a really decent loving relationship. And then on the other hand I think that it might be a way of de-sensitising myself and dissolving these tensions. I don't know. I don't have any niche needs and when I've had a look at these sites they don't seem to take into account being valued and valuing someone else. I know there are exceptions, many found on this thread, but it feels disproportionately transactional. I can well imagine that it will only enhance the feeling that people are saying things only to get what they want. In my experience the people who turn it around and ask what it is they can do for you are few and far between.

I understand too the compliments thing. It's not just doubting the sincerity. It's reconciling with your view of yourself. Just the act of making the comparison is a small moment of self-confrontation. For me I always carried an attitude of that was then, this is now, I'm only as good as the next thing I do and find it impossible to take pride in anything. Compliments fuck with that relentless forward looking.

As I said up the top of this increasingly long post, I feel that these thoughts have got to be worked through with a professional that you feel comfortable with. I've found the less I've dated recently, the more these feelings have been working their way out and that in itself gives me the big hint that dating has been a diversion from the real matters at hand.

Menora · 22/05/2020 12:09

Thanks for sharing all of that Hairy. It really sounds like you are trying to understand a lot in one go. I also grew up in an abusive household where everything was hidden and never spoken about. It has led to some real internal trauma where I do not understand or trust my own feelings because they were never acknowledged and I just became constantly anxious and internalised everything

Fab isn’t for me either - I don’t think I can enter a space where I could risk being seen as an object again. I am not strong enough to do it.

Suppressing things is a very difficult one. I do suppress my feelings towards ex and actually it has paid off. The older the DC got the less he could hurt me/control me and he has given up. Polite detachment also worked, and trying not to show the DC your hurt and pain but saying ‘that’s not ok’ or the truth is what I did. And my patience paid off as he’s leaving me alone now

How long have you been separated?

ZoZoBo · 22/05/2020 12:58

Thanks Hairy and Menora and others for sharing. I think it is amazing that this thread is not just a dating thread where we share our dating escapades, but has become a place of trust and support where you can post your most inane worries to your deepest darkest ones and someone will jump on and reassure and help if possible - or give you a straight answer!
I have struggled hugely with my self image and just seeing it from the other side from your viewpoint Menora where it is offputting having to reassure someone and build them up so its something I am going to work on before I meet my irons in July! Or fake it til I make it!
The Ex thing is huge too - we all have tonnes of baggage which makes this thread a godsend whether we are doing FWB or seeking a serious commitment. I have no single friends!
Sorry that was a rambling mess!!

Menora · 22/05/2020 13:39

I wouldn’t say it’s offputting as such but it can be hard work

There is nothing wrong with wanting assurance someone finds you attractive and likes you - if you feel like you are trying to guess this is not good

For your own sake - don’t point your flaws out to people

Firstly - this can give people the power they now know your fears and insecurities and can be bad for an unbalanced relationship

Secondly - it is more attractive to own your own confidence

Thirdly - if you are feeling really unattractive and down about yourself, you won’t feel better long term by asking someone to validate it. What if you break up? You will assume it’s because you weren’t good enough

Fourth - people don’t see your flaws the way you do. I might hate my bum but some men might like a jiggly ass 😂

Menora · 22/05/2020 13:42

The thing I found hardest about reassurance is that it can become a bottomless pit as well. Nothing you say is enough, then you feel wary of what you say and any criticism isn’t taken well

Mr Moving last year was prime example - constantly asking me if I liked him. Told him I did. Then needing me to prove it by always responding to every message. Then needing me to prove it more by seeing him 5 times a week

When I broke up with him he was really nasty to me as he felt personally offended as he was ‘such a nice guy’ and told me I would never meet a nice guy like him because I was a bitch Hmm

ZoZoBo · 22/05/2020 13:44

For your own sake - don’t point your flaws out to people

This is the crux of it I think!! I have an absolute terror of getting naked in front of someone new... but if I act like Im happy in my own skin then it doesnt give them a reason to see those flaws or be bothered by them! Thats the theory I'm going with anyway!! And if they don't like what they see thats on them...assuming I haven't misrepresented myself in any way Smile

Menora · 22/05/2020 13:49

You need to make sure you trust them, have got to know them and feel comfortable
Then it will be less scary

If it’s a huge issue then you can tell someone that you are uncomfortable, be honest and up front about wanting to go at your pace

Menora · 22/05/2020 13:51

For instance the getting naked chat would be a bad idea over text message to someone you haven’t met

But someone you have been on some dates with and it’s moving towards the bedroom, it would be ok to let them know that you need to feel more comfortable

Usually when you go to get naked with the right person, what you look like is the last thing on anyone’s mind Grin people just want to DO IT

ZoZoBo · 22/05/2020 14:42

Thanks Menora that’s good advice - I will definitely wait until we are heading that way for the ‘naked’ chat and also not point out in advance how I feel about my stomach boobs and thighs 🤣

supercali77 · 22/05/2020 14:48

I had the same reaction to fab. The transactional nature of it was at once uncomplicated but too clinical. As if any of us are seriously only interested in inserting genital A into genital B. I know folk have met people on there but the format for me was off putting. I'm nit currently dating because like hairy and a few others on here I am recovering from multiple traumas beginning in childhood and accumulating through relationships. For those who are interested I'm doing a course for people with CPTSD. This is a form of ptsd which isnt a singular event. I practise a coach called Richard Grannon's techniques. It is helping.

Whatdoidowithmylifenow · 22/05/2020 14:50

Thanks all.

I think a therapist is a good idea, although I did see a counsellor a few years ago which I hated - I felt like even more pressure that I could t deal with at the time.

@cravingthelook the book sounds like a great idea, maybe I do need to think about my good points. I must have some. I don't want my feelings of worth to be how I look, I want it to be what I have to offer people and that what I offer is enough and something to be appreciated.

@HairyArsedMan thanks for sharing, it sounds odd but it's good to hear that men have the same thoughts and issues that women do. I have never thought that my ex was abuse, just uncaring and having no empathy. But looking back at some of the things he said, even in a joking manner, have really impacted my in a negative way. For instance when it was my time of the month, he would say 'well you're not use to me know are you'. He would say he was joking but it made me think that was all I was good for. Nothing I did was ever good enough. He never wanted to spend time with me, never took me out, I would always have to plan things and even then he was a bit disinterested. In fact I've never really been on a 'date' in my life, where a man has asked to take me out and arranged timings/details etc. I've never dated.

@Menora I'm starting to wonder if maybe fab wasn't the best idea I've ever had, but it almost goes hand hand with feeling like sex is all I have to offer. Although I did sign up purely for my own needs - I hadn't had sex in months and I needed to meet someone! Now i am feeling slightly like an object. Not sure I have the confidence for actual dating apps though.

Whatdoidowithmylifenow · 22/05/2020 14:59

@supercali77 I will look into that - some of my issues do relate back to my childhood I think

HairyArsedMan · 22/05/2020 15:13

Sorry @Menora I needed a good bit of gallivanting over the hills after that, and a long cold shower. I'm at 4 years, post ltr. In many ways the parenting relationship has got better as she has mellowed having been hit by two separate bullets of grief. But still these little pockets of her world view come through [my DS] that make me shudder. The one the other day was "you're either the bully or bullied".

It is a lot to deal with but I am not doing it alone and have had the time and money in the past few months to work with someone. One discussion I had on the not knowing your feelings part was that those formative experiences have set you up protectively and with reduced capacity for clear thinking when those protections are engaged. The threat those protections were there for has long since gone but the instincts remain and they need to be disarmed carefully in order to expand your ability to process calmly.

Menora · 22/05/2020 15:13

Def depends on your emotional needs and strengths - I can’t easily do FWB, I feel vulnerable really quickly and cannot enjoy sex with anyone really who I don’t know well, and there is not really any intimacy. But I have had sex with them anyway, even if I didn’t actually want to deep down (to make them like me) or have an orgasm with them as I can’t relax. So I know what I need and a hook up isn’t it!

I do want and miss sex - but I value my body and mind in such a way now that I know I have to wait for something more meaningful. I know I am not strong in this area and I will struggle. I’ve been abused and objectified so I am not able to let go very well

crazycatlady20 · 22/05/2020 15:16

I agree with faking it till u make it. That's gonna be my motto 🙂

Help with non-chatty irons. This one asked for my number and will initiate a convo, or ask what I'm doing, I reply and ask him something similar and his answer just kind of stops the convo. normally I'd let it die out but he seems to text every so often and I dont want to be rude by not replying. I've said to him to give me a text if he'd like to chat, he says will do, but then doesnt. what can I say to just cut it off or am I being too hasty?

HairyArsedMan · 22/05/2020 16:41

@Whatdoidowithmylifenow Yes that's death by a thousand cuts. It does sound like dating might reward you with some of those niceties if you do happen to meet a gent.

@supercali77 Thanks, I've just looked him up on Youtube - looks useful. I will take advice but I think it will be approved since I am going through The Body Keeps The Score, also a PTSD approach.

@crazycatlady20 How about "hi, it looks like we're not quite on the same wavelength here. Maybe we shouldn't waste each others time?" or replace the last sentence to "good luck and take care" to close it off.

CheesecakeAddict · 22/05/2020 17:07

Thank you to all the sharers.
I have no confidence anymore when I used to have so much before I met exh. I hate the way I look and I feel intellectually inforior next to Mr Vegan. I really need to fake it till I make it, I think 😂. A lot of it comes from exh telling me for the past 2 years how I can never leave him because I'm fat and stupid and no one will want me or be able to put up with me. I have signed up to therapy so hopefully that helps but I think I need to remind myself that Mr Vegan slept with me on more than one occasion and still wanted to keep it going even when sex went off the table, so he must be interested in me and that needs to be enough of a confidence boost for me.

Fuzzyduckduckyfuzz · 22/05/2020 19:00

Thank you so much for your replies. @Menora if you don’t mind me asking what type of counselling are you doing? I have a lot of anxiety around relationships.

Also I’m sorry for not replying individually I’m trying to take in everyone’s situations.

Regarding mr stationery as I will refer to him as. I know his baggage is a lot and yes to begin with I feel like it was nice having all the attention from him but now that I’ve had a month without talking to him as much I miss him, hence the dating apps.

I signed up to tinder gold and it’s like having a full time job sitting through the likes. It’s very weird how a lot of people match but then never speak

Menora · 22/05/2020 19:29

No course I don’t mind
I’m not having CBT I’m having trauma type therapy. I’ve had CBT before

I contacted them as I seem to have some extreme reactions of anxiety during relationships and I was so confused and unsure of myself and it’s quite consuming

In every other day life I do not have the same issues

She is kind of unlocking the trauma as I don’t know how to verbalise feelings easily or recognise them. My childhood was very bleak emotionally and I wasn’t nurtured or had secure attachments to my parents. My dad is an alcoholic my mum is very needy and selfish as well. I got the blame for everything and was told I was a naughty hysterical child. I had OCD, severe insomnia, I dropped out of school got into a gang and was drinking a lot. During this period I was raped by an older guy. I then had a string of bad relationships then I met my DC dad and saw him as an escape route. I was with him for 8 years but not happy and he was very controlling and made me feel like I was useless. After I left him things didn’t get much better I had more awful relationships that were abusive until I couldn’t take it anymore and made the good decision to be single.

I was single for over 5 years and then decided to start dating again but a lot of the old feelings kept resurfacing.

So she is helping me with the trauma. My confidence and self esteem self worth and how to understand my gut feelings and express them. I am a total people pleaser

Menora · 22/05/2020 19:32

What I have realised is that I mistake chemistry for familiarity - men who are like my dad (or similar to each other) seem to draw me in. They are usually chaotic, manipulative and I find myself trying to bend over backwards to make them happy and not myself happy. Then they keep triggering off these buried feelings that freak me out.

Mr Return does not freak me out or trigger any bad feelings at all, but then again I am unsure whether I will be able to really connect with him romantically while I am still drawn to the dark side 😂

Fuzzyduckduckyfuzz · 22/05/2020 19:41

Wow that sounds so traumatic, I’m so pleased to hear that the cbt is working for you.

Totally understand the people pleasing. Similar with my ex went for someone like my dad, also had all the issues with drinking. Honestly think I was with him because I didn’t want to be on my own anymore. Mr stationery is so kind and caring and it’s a difficult thing to get used to

HairyArsedMan · 23/05/2020 07:52

You’ve really had it tough @Menora. I hope you get things resolved. My Dad was an alcoholic too. It was quite public too, he’d roll around pissed as a fart without a care in the world.

One thing I don’t understand and will do some work on is how I feel secure generally in forming relationships -I don’t second guess or doubt the intentions of others in the slightest. I guess that part isn’t broken for me ? Or is it too rose tinted ?

cravingthelook · 23/05/2020 08:16

Oh @Menora I'm so sorry for your early traumas. I'm glad you are having counselling. Thanks

What struck me is how as you described your life, I nodded along, in so many ways it mirrored mine (some details different but the pattern is exactly the same).

I hope we both can stop going down the same paths x

cravingthelook · 23/05/2020 08:20

@CheesecakeAddict

I'll remind you of rule #7 daily if you like 😃 it does sound like Mr Vegan sees your worth too

And yes I'm aware I need to remember #7 too.