But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Ballet1992
No counciling as of yet, can't really afford it but I think I need to to stop it domineering my relationship with my own children.

@Fanthorpe
My dh can see exactly what she is like and hates it. We discuss it a lot and it's nice to have someone believe me to be honest.
Df is of the age and social way that 'no one questions him or his wife' and he's incapable of being a seperate person from her and needs to know they are 'a team'. I can't say anything to DF as he will defend M even if she is wrong. he takes the moral high ground and thinks I should respect my elders.... Probably because they did exactly as this thread states... Took me to stately homes!!
I think you're right, withdrawing is my first step to setting boundaries, then learning the phrase "no"

Elephant

Congratulations on your pregnancy.

It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. Its not your fault she is like this, you did not make her that way either. She is merely using you as the scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

Setting boundaries is going to be difficult for you mainly because your mother has never really encouraged you to have any. Also narcissists will and do actively rail against any boundary you care to set.

One small but important step you can take now is to block both your parents from being able to contact you via mobile phone. If neither can behave decently they should not be able to talk at you. You would also not tolerate this from a friend, your mother is no different.

I would also have a look at the websites called Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and Out of the Fog. There are also some good publications listed on the initial post on this thread too.

Reddit also have a very good thread called raised by Narcissists.

You need to stay away from her going forward. She will continue to mistreat your children not all that dissimilarly to how you have been are still are treated.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are either discarded or are as narcissistic as they are. Your dad here is her secondary abuser and enabler here; he has also completely failed you as a parent by failing to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. He is truly a weak bystander of a man too.

Elephant, your mother is deplorable 😖
distance detach
The Jekyll and Hyde thing is a technique to disarm, distract and to destabilize you so that you keep coming back for more punishment
I doubt that she's doing it deliberately/consciously it's more of an instinct, her instincts are to be abusive ☹️
Keep away, protect yourself💙

The more I think about it the more sinister and disturbing the supermarket incident seems Elephant she made up a very serious allegation about you in public to expose and humiliate you, in front of strangers in a supermarket
Wtf😳
If that's her opening move what happens when she escalates😳, it's like a veiled threat of what will happen to you if you don't do as she says.
I think I would gradually just get colder and colder more and more distant with her
❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️

Elephant

BACP are worth looking at re counselling and some may do this on a sliding scale of fees. You need to find someone though who has NO familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Also such people are like shoes, you need to also find someone who fits in with your approach.

When I first came here just a year ago one very wise poster pointed out that when your parents start demanding respect and pointing out your place to you then they’ve really got nothing much to offer you.

Of course people should be respectful to one another but It’s on the basis of empathy and kindness.

I think you need to cut contact down to the bear minimum or nothing. She had her chance to parent and treated you terribly. You fear telling her you’re pregnant. You dh hates them.

Could you move away?

I wouldn’t be meeting her in public again.

So sorry

Indeed and they don't just want automatic respect they want automatic deference.
As an adult I consider myself to be of equal standing to other adults.
When you're a grown up you don't have to obey your parents,of course be civil be polite, respond to kindness with kindness, but they have no authority over you.

I remember when I told my mother about my second pregnancy, I was very surprised when her knee jerk reaction was to verbally attack me, I had no idea what this was about and she afterwards refused to acknowledge that it happened.
In hindsight I can see that her instincts were that this would be a barrier to her control over me, and the attack was a result of her lack of impulse control (and propensity to attack)

You were exhibiting your independence ulter, how dare you!?!?! 😆

I really wish I could minimise contact but having a conversation where I tell them why would litterally cause uproar. I tried to do it before and she made all my siblings ring me and bombard me until I spoke to her again and even then she told me to 'fuck off'. She is jealous of any relationship I have that isn't with her, including friends and my husbands family (who are wonderful).
I wish we could move away but it's financially not possible at the moment. When we come to purchase a house I really think we will be doing so somewhere far away!
How can I set the boundaries and keep my cool and not give in when she start with the "youre having a funny day" "you're misremembering" "you just want control" etc? I would never hear the end of it.
The way she has treated me all these years has been awful really. She has never once apologised to me for anything, even something little like catching my foot with a door. She would instead say "sorry you were in the way then" not actually apologising for her actions. So if I started a conversation about this, it would be "sorry you feel this way but..."
I'm only just starting to see how much this has effected me... Gosh, I think I need that counciling!

Elephant you don't have to have a conversation where you tell her, you don't have to explain or justify yourself to her.
You just do it, gradually distance yourself, grey rock, avoid phone conversations, don't engage, shut her down etc.
Don't let her take from you anymore, don't let her crush you.
it's not easy but it's better than the alternative and it gets easier the more you do it 💙

How do you keep your cool?
Keep your cool by avoiding 'hot' situations, she will have very strong urges to always lead you into 'hot' situations, these are situations where you are put on the spot because she does something to trigger you and it's very hard for you to control your response.
These situations increase her dominance and her power over you because it's very hard not to react and feel very upset in that moment.
Try to avoid interactions in real time, never respond to messages straight away.

Read about FOG. Understand what’s happening. Learn her ‘script’, they all have one. Get smart. When she comes at you deflect it.
At the moment you’re trying to appease her, hoping the nicer you are the more reasonable she’ll be.

Learn about what you’re dealing with, get angry, learn your strategy which is just defence. She’s trained you to be complicit in your own abuse. Soon your children will be in her orbit. Believe me it makes it so much harder.

Does anyone feel like a freak.

I now have no contact with either parent.

No one really understands it. Even those closest to me, who have seen the madness over the years, feel I'm being a bit sensitive for cutting all contact. Even my DH, although he supports my decision.

There are so few people in the world who get what we have lived through.

I feel like I'm broken, damaged goods.

That I can never just be me, because of my childhood and by how alienating it is to have no contact with your parents.

I just have this deep loneliness that I can. Ever really forge honest connections going forwards.

I will always need to hold something back, to conceal exactly how horrible my family was and the damage it did to me.

Most of my friendships were made when I was in the FOG and tried to please everyone. Now I can't do that, I'm losing a lot of the friends who actually know how mental my M was.

Hi Ballet yes, I understand.

I think so much of the work survivors of abuse do is about leaving as much of the pain and guilt behind as possible. You’re looking at those around you for affirmation that you’re doing the right thing, and I’m not sure if that’s going to be enough for you. You’ve got to find that in yourself, and it’s much easier to do that if you work with a therapist.

Doing things for yourself that strengthen your boundaries, working on your self-esteem and finding your values are crucial to feeling better.

You were trained to feel small and look to others for permission, to not feel your feelings. It takes work to change that.

People on this thread have done all kinds of things to move themselves forward. Some have good people in their lives, some are solitary.

There no magic wand, I wish there was. I do know that understanding what is happening is helpful.

And I think you’d be amazed at how many people do know how you feel, but buy the lie of blood is thicker than water and continue on in misery.

Meant to say there are days when I feel wretched and just yearn for love and acceptance. It has to come from within though, and that’s really really hard.

Sending you love xxx

@fanthorpe love and acceptance from within is the best so any step towards that is a step towards the long end goal. It’s easier to say than do I know. Just last week, my OH had a significant birthday that wasn’t acknowledged by text, call or card. While I wasn’t surprised it sure was hurtful. At least we know now without doubt that we have been well and truly ditched.(after a late 1 ringer ring on the phone, presumably so she could say she’d called with no answer) After putting 1 fairly small boundary in place at the start of the year.

@Ballet11192 I feel your pain. Mum does when I was 24, now gone LC with my dad with a view to going NC long term. Feel a lot better in myself but do have to try and ignore the pity party that's going on in my head when I see my husband's amazing relationship with his parents

Mum died not mum does. And aged 14 not 24. Fat fingers today!

Hi there- haven't been on here for a while. DM most def a narc. She is currently off sick and facing capability meeting. She gave someone the wrong med cert. she is a receptionist. She says her union can't help her as not a big enough case. She is involving friends and me, Dad and Sister. We spoke for nearly 2 hours on weekend (we live miles away)
She texted today and said Was I free to talk. I groaned but texted saying it was her turn to ring. She texts back and tells me to have pen and paper handy. She had texted earlier today to ask how I was.
During call she asked nothing about me, the family etc. Launched straight into a letter she had. It's like she wants me to solve it for her. She asked me to accompany her to meeting but letter says I'm not allowed.
I could never talk to anyone for so long about myself. There are just no boundaries- she is depending on so many people but seems unwilling to get advice from the right channels that I've mentioned to her.
It's getting me down and feels like so much pressure.

Hi purple, obviously you can’t get involved, it’s a professional meeting and I would imagine there’s a confidentiality issue anyway?

Do you know anything about how she is at work? If they’re going for capability has she already had a warning?

I can hear how stressful this all is. It’s not your problem though. Don’t be too quick to answer texts and calls.

Thanks fanthorpe. yes she has already had a final written warning. She was almost dismissed. She says she is bullied at work and is very unhappy. She was previously a manager but small locally managed company was taken over by a corporate and she has really struggled with this. She keeps saying she has worked there x number of years, how can they question her etc. She struggles with IT.

Thank you for your reply.

Although it isn’t our job to fix it, people who have some form of narcissism/personality disorder are very sensitive to criticism and can be inflexible in their relationships to others. It sounds like she’s resistant to change and unwilling to take direction and is now being managed out.

Just remember she is an adult who makes her own decisions. It sounds like a very worrying and upsetting time for her. But please remember your boundaries and protect your self, no doubt this is another drama featuring her in a long series of similar events.

She is depending on so many people but seems unwilling to get advice from the right channels
Here's my take on this, she's drawing these other people in because she likes having other people 'working' for her and she wants to lay the groundwork for making it their fault if it goes wrong.

She won't go to the right channels because the right channels are nowhere near as easy to manipulate as your own family/friends.
Telling you to have a pen and paper ready is a way of saying 'you are my secretary', it's a way of gaslighting you into being her personal assistant.
You can always gaslight her back.... ignore most of what she says and keep on pointing her at the right channels.