But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks ulterego. Had message from Asia today and she has consulted ACAS on Mums behalf. It's just that everyone is rallying around her and I may be awful for thinking it but I have never had that kind of support. There are many times when I have been left to it. Does that make me sound bitter?

Sister not Asia

Does that make me sound bitter?
I think it makes you sound justifiably hurt by the lack of support from people who expect support from you!

Can you be all 'oh really that's nice' with your sister on the issue of your Mum and acas?
That way you cant get drawn in, or blamed for anything

Apologies in advance for this but I just need to let out a metaphorical howl of pain here to take away the emotional feeling of being punched in the stomach by my DB and DM. I knew they colluded together against me, I knew they sat and bitched about my (ordinary but happy, satisfying and fairly high achieving despite my childhood) life, lied and ran me down to anyone who would listen, I knew that I was the scapegoat, I knew I would never get any thanks for being the servant, the go to person to sort out the many issues, the person to listen on the phone for 48 minutes (yes once I timed it!) without getting a single word in, I knew (thanks to reading this thread for over a year now) that I was never ever going to get what I needed or deserved from a DM so emotionally damaged and damaging that I was the one parenting her and being an emotional dumpster when she wanted to lash out to make herself feel better. It was only watching my friends bring up their children that helped me to realise the huge difference between my dysfunctional childhood and a healthy one. I put a tiny boundary in place at the start of the year that I should never have let fly in the first place and boom! The silent treatment plus a total ignoring of my 0 birthday a couple of weeks ago. Total. Today something happened so painful that has made me realise that I should have stepped back years ago. I was never going to win in the competition for equal sibling affection/treatment. I was never going to get my mum to nurture me. I was never going to be good enough for them. I was always going to have a gaping hole where family live and support should be. I’m sorry if I’ve bought anyone down. I’ve got good friends, some of who understand to the extent anyone with a normal family can. I just need to purge emotionally so I can move on to what I know is for the best in terms of emotional safety for me - not having them in my life at all and being reconciled to that. Thank you for reading.

wherethetamethingsare
(((bighug)))
It was only watching my friends bring up their children that helped me to realise the huge difference between my dysfunctional childhood and a healthy one
it's as if there is an 'inner protector' which helps you find people who can give you some of the guidance and nurturing that you need.
I can move on to what I know is for the best in terms of emotional safety for me
you deserve emotional safety, turn your back on cruelty, reach out for the warmth and kindness that you deserve

Thank you @Ulterego. I’m writing this in tears at being acknowledged. I can’t tell you how much your kind words mean - I feel almost validated.

You're so welcome wherethetamethingsare :)
You deserve acknowledgement and validation:)
I'm so sorry that your mother and brother are treating you cruelly, I don't know what led to them being the way they are but you are not to blame and you don't deserve to be treated like that.
C'mon, it's gonna be OK :)

I’m really sorry everyone, I need to catch up with the thread when I’m feeling a bit stronger but I’m just at the end of my tether.
I’ve been NC with my parents for six months now and one emails me regularly and messages me, I don’t feel like I can get away. This was the parent who was aware of all the abuse from the other and the catastrophic consequences for my mental health and did nothing. I got cards from all of them for my birthday and haven’t even opened them. My email accounts and everywhere feel like they’re not safe, other family members are urging me to get back in touch all the time.
At the same time my mental health is so low, I had a suicide attempt recently and there’s just no help. I’m struggling so much with the after-effects of everything, I have horrific nightmares and flashbacks and haven’t had a good nights sleep without alcohol for about three years now. I constantly worry that I’m just as poisonous as my mother and will harm people by being around them and I know I’ve worried and hurt people without meaning them to. I can’t really see the way out and everything feels like it’s closing on me. I’m also working on domestic abuse stuff at work which is exhausting and triggering.
The worst thing is that everyone has just turned a blind eye to everything that’s happened and expects me just to go back and keep putting up with it. I’ve lost friends and others who are still friends have ignored it when I’ve been bullied before and other things - I actually honestly believed my scars were totally invisible from self-harm and apparently they are grotesquely visible, just everyone has politely ignored it. It makes me feel like I’m totally worthless, like I deserve no better than what I’ve had and that I’m a terrible person for trying to get away, also that it’s inevitable that I’ll get sucked back into it without anyone to stand alongside me and support me. But I know the few people who have been good friends just can’t cope with me, my two best friends both said they hoped I would get sectioned when I overdosed.

Sorry, my head is all over the place but I just don’t know where else to turn and you are all always so clear-sighted. Sorry it’s such a mess.

I’m not sure I’m any help to you but I couldn’t read and run. Other people’s failings are NOT your fault. It’s not you that causes someone not to have the words to create a conversation about someone’s pain. Please, please don’t think that you’re worthless. I’m sending you a big, big hug . If it’s any help think of it as there are 2 sides - in the one camp are the people who are causing hurt and on the other the people pushing back. You’re pushing back. You’re in the side with everyone else on here and everyone else who is here but haven’t posted. You are NOT alone. You’ve got all the people here with you. Your life is important. Take each day as it comes - maybe is an online counsellor a possibility. Your life is valuable. You matter. Take each day as it comes - maybe is an online counsellor a possibility?

@CeciledeVolanges take a deep breath.

First of all block your parent's numbers and email addresses. Failing that, get new email addresses and don't give them out to other family members.

You may need to back off from those family members who are encouraging you to get back in touch with your parents as that won't be helping at all xx

Hey Cecile:)
I'm sorry to hear that things are so hard and so acute for you right now:(

When I read this:
But I know the few people who have been good friends just can’t cope with me
I want to try and reframe it.... I feel like your friends do care but to them the difficulties that you have are serious matters that they dont feel 'qualified' to cope with?
Could that be part of it or have I misunderstood you?

Cecile, what is priority here, what can you do to buy yourself some space, is it possible to make the NC with your parents more 'watertight'?
Can you make a connection with a therapist, someone to anchor you?

Thank you for replying so quickly. I’ve had counselling and therapy before (I couldn’t afford to pay for it now due to the situation) and not found it particularly helpful, spent years and years on waiting lists, and before that spent years with my parents telling me I must be insane to think there was anything wrong and my mental illness was the cause of all the problems in the family. I know that at least is not true because they were having problems years before I was born.

In terms of friends, I lost a few when I went NC with my parents, I lost a few when people in my previous group of friends decided to side with my ex when he did something quite dangerous to me when drunk then dumped me. Of the few I’ve got left, I know it’s overwhelming but it feels absolutely shit to phone someone when you’re just upset and they don’t even want to listen, just to send me to A&E or tell me to call Samaritans. This sounds so, so petulant but i don’t want people with the right qualifications who are paid to listen and make banal comments. There are so many people I care deeply about and it feels dreadful that people have to have sufficient qualifications to want to spend time with me or to be around them. I’m not constantly crying or dissociated, sometimes I’m there for them, or calm. Sorry, this is so whiny.

And sometimes I’ll be feeling dreadful but will just send a chatty and cheerful-sounding message but even then don’t get responses for days. My friends are all moving on, getting married, moving abroad and so on.

it feels absolutely shit to phone someone when you’re just upset and they don’t even want to listen, just to send me to A&E or tell me to call Samaritans
I hear you Cecile, I didn't mean to be insensitive or to justify your friend's lack of compassion, it is very painful to be dismissed like that, not to even have acknowledgement:(
I'm sorry they are so shit:(

I didn’t think you were being dismissive, or that they are shit, really. I’m just always conscious that I’m difficult to deal with, and worry that people feel the same way about hearing from me as I do from my family.

Hey Cecile I think you’ve been here a while, sorry to hear things are so challenging at the moment, it sounds like you’re really struggling.

It also sounds like a few of your friends haven’t been able to provide you with the support you need, I think a lot of people are finding things too much to deal with at the moment, and they just might not have it in them. It’s painful. Hopefully at least one will turn out to be what you need. It’s often not the ones you expect.

People will always try to mend the broken family relationships of others. They think there’s a solution because they assume that parents and children love and want the best for each other. You want the best for yourself, and that’s the important thing now.

I’m so sorry to hear you’ve been hurting yourself. Have you been given strategies to divert yourself when you feel like that’s what you want to do?

You’ve been incredibly strong to decide that your relationship with your parents needs to change, you just need to find the way to the next stage of your life. You’re so used to feeling besieged it might take a while before you see how free you’re becoming. Being blamed for your parents bad relationship is wrong, and if you’ve carried that weight I’m glad you’re rejecting it now.

Divert their emails to spam and block their numbers. Throw the cards in the bin or burn them, you didn’t ask for them and you don’t have to have them in your house.

Make sure your GP knows you’re struggling, find as much help as you can, do as much as you can to take care of yourself. Good luck.

Thank you so much for replying, everyone. I’ve calmed down a little now and stopped moaning! I have been here a while, by the way, but on and off.

Somehow I’m not brave enough, or tough enough, to block their emails and throw away their letters - I’ve always been the good one, the one who replies, the diplomatic one who smooths it over and it feels like it would be a morally bad thing to do - I don’t know why I draw the line there as my emails are piling up while I avoid them to avoid my parents’ emails and I’ve just decided to take a long Twitter break because of my dad’s incessant messages, as well as knowing that my parents can read my messages. It might also be a hangover from the uncontrollable rage I’ve encountered before whenever I’ve tried to put up any boundary of any sort. I’m really bad at saying no in general, as well, which makes me quite vulnerable to overworking - I remember the one time I said no, I really couldn’t do a task, at work and I almost cried with guilt!

As for what I was complaining about before, I was talking to my friend about how I was feeling, and she said of course people need to socialise and be around others, but maybe I needed to sort myself out first. It just feels so hopeless because after years of being isolated, forbidden from seeing people, my friends being driven away by family, the jealousy and invasions of privacy and constantly taking up my time, I don’t know how to be normal or do relationships or even who I am, really, just some sort of sub-human who apparently needs to sort myself out before I can even be around others. I’ll stop monopolising the thread now, anyway! And thank you so much again.

Your not sub human at all. You’ve been damaged by dysfunctional parents and need to find strategies to heal you. It’s exactly the same as plastering a broken arm, just that that is more visible. You’re not responsible for their rage or the cause of it. Your parents dysfunctional behaviour is. If it helps, I often feel like a 7 year old learning the rules of social engagement but you know what? That’s still better than people like your parents who beat down boundaries, react inappropriately and make you feel the way you do. Could you maybe start another twitter account or email if you’re not ready to block them? Sending you hugs.

I know I’ve always felt that if only I understood the rules I’d get on better with people. Someone on here pointed out that it was pointless, we’d been given a constantly shifting set of rules by our narc parent, get one thing right and there would be something else.

I felt like you about the letters and presents, then I tore one up, it felt great. Now they go in the bin. There is one in a drawer, and it needs to go. I think Attila gave me permission to bin them, would it help if I said go ahead, throw them away?

Start setting your boundaries, just small ones, look in the mirror, lift your chin, say ‘no’ very firmly. Practice.

That’s really true about the rules constantly shifting, I’m autistic as well so it just makes it harder.
Does saying no to yourself help? The concept did make me smile after a rubbish day, so thank you!

I think it can, it’s a visualisation technique, and it’s used in self-defence training. You can shout it and thrust your hands out, pushing the threat away as well. You just mentally put yourself in a stronger place where you can rehearse what you’d like to say to someone who’s threatening you.

I’m glad I made you smile! Try it, what have you got to lose? 🙂

Cecile I'm really sorry to hear that things have been so hard for you, particularly recently.

I don't know if this will help but I find it useful, when dealing with "friends" who keep saying stuff that is hurtful, to ask myself: is this how I would treat a friend? Sometimes there are hard things you need to hear, but IME that's much rarer than the amount of times that people want to tell you everything that's wrong with you! It might be that you have to withdraw from some of these people or at least limit what you share with them, and stop looking to them for the sort of comfort and validation you need, because they don't seem like they are going to be able to do that for you.

I read somewhere that what people like us often lack is the feeling of being in harmony with other people. Some things that can help are like, collaborating with people on projects, volunteer work, being in a choir (I know, literal harmony), having a pet, if that's something that you think you would like.

This is going to sound mental but I was at the zoo with the kids a couple of days ago and it was raining and the baboons were all sat together trying to stay dry. There was one wee baby one that was sat in his mother's lap and he had a look of contentment on his face that I like, viscerally know I cannot achieve. I find people hard. When I do feel in harmony with them I push them away. The only folk I really manage it with are the kids, and even then I come away exhausted. I don't know.

I can really identify with your thing of feeling guilty about putting up boundaries. As Fanthorpe says, having a strategy to deal with emails etc can really help, because you don't then have to make the decision each time an email comes in - you make the filter (or autodelete!) when you're feeling strong, and then they don't get to yank your chain every time they try to make contact. The guilty feeling really is just a hangover from childhood, you've nothing to feel guilty about, and it will go away if you don't have to think about it the whole time.

Right, that was a bit of a ramble, I hope it helps, I hope it gets better - hope you're all doing allright and coping with lockdown and so on. Our kids are going back to school next week thank goodness - can't wait for them to get back in front of a teaching professional. It's been bloody terrifying! Still they have spent a good 3 months stuck with us in the house and they seem pretty OK. My heart goes out to the kids in families like ours right now, poor buggers.

There was one wee baby one that was sat in his mother's lap and he had a look of contentment on his face that I like, viscerally know I cannot achieve. I find people hard
same here, can only feel that contentment when alone, people are hard

I read somewhere that what people like us often lack is the feeling of being in harmony with other people. this. Exactly this. Never been able to put my finger on it before but this is spot on.

That concept of finding it hard to be in harmony with people was from one of Bessel van der Kolk's books, if you want to follow that up - probably The Body Keeps the Score.