But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.
Overbearing behaviour like she shows you is abusive behaviour. She does this also because she can and she enjoys playing the victim. I note without much surprise either that her son is far more indulged and otherwise favoured by her.

BTW you do not mention your dad in all this, where is he?.

You need to remove yourself completely from this dysfunctional dynamic before it further consumes you and destroys you from the inside out. She sees you as a bank; nothing more than that. Enabling her and otherwise seeking her approval as you have been and are doing is a waste of time; she will never be the nice kind mother you perhaps still want her to be.

Wherethetame
Cold shouldered at the first sign of putting a boundary in place
It's very insulting but think about it and you can see why they react like this...
having control over you is very important to them because they have that strong psychological need to feel superior to you, the moment they sense you slipping from their grasp they reflexively try to prevent you from escaping by slapping down your attempts.
All you need to do is stand your ground, do not back down
don't back down and then keep on not backing down

Sunflower🌻
We can help you strengthen your boundaries!
You can do it, maybe start small and build up but start saying no to her, and then keep on saying no to her.
What's she gonna do, stop your pocket money?

You don't have to waste your energy confronting her or calling her out because that just gives her an opportunity to wrestle with you over whatever issue it is, maybe choose a line like 'no I can't afford it' and then just run with that?

I explained that she would be .....and this resulted in an argument
Next time do not explain or justify yourself
when you explain or justify yourself it sends a message that you are answerable/accountable to them, in other words you are behaving like a subordinate and that gives them grounds to start telling you what to do
Start behaving like the boss, the boss does not have to explain herself!

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you, I’ve very much had my rant and blow out on mumsnet today as you have seen and it’s done me the world of good because it has been building up!!

My dad left her when I was 8, that’s when she started going downhill with her mental health.

Unfortunately... my dad has his own input of insult towards me. I love him dearly and he has been very supportive over the years but it has come at a price. He tends to take a few hits at my self esteem whenever he can, so I try only to see him and talk to him once a week, keep it friendly and detach from giving him an opportunity to mock me and get away with it because it’s “only a joke”.

My dad doesn’t bother with my brother much he doesn’t like him for the lay about my brother has turned out to be. But there’s been support there from him towards me. Just not emotionally.

@Ulterego thank you so much

Sunflower, I don't really like the sound of your dad:(
he lures you in by being nice to you so that he can take a hit at your self esteem.
True support does not come at a price.
Supportive people do not try to break down your self esteem.

Sunflowers do you know about ‘grey-rocking’? I think this might be something you can practice with your parents and brother from now. If they ask for something you can reply ‘I can’t at the moment’, when they ask why just repeat it, ‘I’ve said I can’t’ ad infinitum. If they demand an explanation say ‘I’ve already said I can’t do that for you, I’ve got to go now’ you don’t owe them an explanation. You’ve described how they exploit you, you’re not getting anything from them except pain. Just disengage. Even if you have money it doesn’t entitle them to a share of it, they don’t appreciate it, and it sounds like they never return it.

Read up in FOG and the Toxic Parents book.

Tell your Dad his jokes aren’t funny, I know this type of bullying, it’s extremely unkind and it’s not a joke at all.

Time to make it stop.

Reading @Sunflowersok post has really highlighted that my Dad is very similar. He feels really entitled to my money and I find it hard to know where the boundaries are between helping your parents out financially and enabling them to carry on with their poor financial decisions.

My Dad has not worked for nearly my entire life and I am in my early 20s. We were obviously therefore very poor but whenever we needed financial help his parents would give him money. Yesterday my Dad told me that he cannot wait for me to get a good job so that I can buy him his dream car?

I can see the dynamic shift from him being reliant on his parents for money and now expecting to be reliant on his children.

Just like @sunflowersok's Mother my Dad also has this entitlement and always act as a victim. At university I "lent" my parents over £2000 which has never been paid back two years later.

As a result I also have some resentment for my siblings who never, ever lend money to my parents because they have more of a backbone than me and just say no without feeling guilty.

I’m sorry to hear about your dad and his similar behaviours. It’s strange reading the Same situation from Other people, it’s like I’m in shock hearing people go through it all but I’m not so shocked when it’s my own story! It’s sickening when they make comments like your dad has. My mums always dropped comments regarding money too not just with me but regarding other people.

She asked me to ring my grandad on his birthday and I said I would do after work. Cue a lot of messages reminding me in the day. By the end of the day she text me saying ‘please don’t forget to ring him, or don’t expect any £££ our of his will’

How very said she’d think I was just in his life to get some inheritance. This is her mentality.

I’ve heard of great rocking yes I’m starting to use it on her and it’s working to some extent but it won’t stop her from trying

It won’t change her behaviour, she’ll never change. It’s to give you the beginning of a phase where you start to protect yourself and phase her out, to be frank. You can’t have a relationship with her, she’s not capable. This is all about you and your needs, and learning to protect yourself. You can do it, honestly.

Thank you for your kind words ulterego

xsad
Yesterday my Dad told me that he cannot wait for me to get a good job so that I can buy him his dream car
did you shoot back with 'dream on sunshine', or maybe 'dont hold your breath mate'
I know you didnt but you shoulda!
We will lend you our various hard won backbones while yours is healing and strengthening:)

please don’t forget to ring him, or don’t expect any £££ our of his will
this is playground behaviour, how insulting to bring you down to this level:(
I can think of lots of sharp retorts but best to ignore, I wish I was stronger when I was younger I'd have given my mother a run for her money:)

The ringing the grandad thing, I wonder if she’s afraid of him? I used to make sure my kids rang my parents immediately they got anything as I knew I’d be the one getting a telling off if they didn’t. Maybe the relationships are being repeated? Not that it matters, you can’t help your mother.

Hi all, I dip in and out of these threads very occasionally. They’ve been a lifesaver - thank you.

My parents are both very difficult but over the last decade my mum has been the worse. Over C19 she’s upped her game and has been sending me abusive messages so I challenged her (very very gently) so she flew off the handle. I had 3 weeks of silent treatment and my dad flying monkeying me, then a manipulative letter and now they’re acting like nothing happened.

Today I get the following from my dad and I’m so angry. I dunno whether to ignore or tell him that this is shit. He sent it to my brother too. Am I over reacting?

“Hi Kids, I expect you are all excited wondering what to get me for my birthday. So, I thought I would tell you what I would really like. Firstly cards. From My eldest daughter, OK, only daughter. A handmade card from [Your DCs] – that’s it, no other card. From my favourite son, yeah, only son, a selfie, but not any selfie. This has to include; [list of people and pets]. Now the difficult bit, the presents. What I want is. [blacklash] - you invite Mum out just you two of you regularly. [DB-] you phone Mum once a week.”

It goes on. I just feel she’s so horrible and it’s just put back to us that we have to do more for her.

Maybe I am horrible. But then I read her abusive messages. Gah!

Sunflower I’m so sorry I’ve cut across your post. Your mother sounds absolutely horrendous! It’s so weird seeing this stuff played out in other people’s houses - my mother is also forever asking you to ‘just’ do xyz. None if which are a ‘just’.

@BacklashStarts - that message is properly weird!

And very very familiar.

How weird to try to dictate the exact type of card!
Bloody ignore - it's mental!

Backlash
very odd, I suppose best to just ignore, stop co-operating, it gets easier the more you do it, I find.

Thanks for the kind words @AttilaTheMeerkat. Both of my parents did have horrific childhoods, so I guess the cycle continues. This makes me anxious for my own children.

I will have a look for that book.

Backlash that message is manipulative none sense, who dictates the terms of your contact with them like that? Emotional blackmail.

Morning all. I hope you don't mind but I dip in and out of these threads when I can but I really need a rant today.

DM is a narcissist and never respects my feelings. She was bloody awful to me as I grew up but I've only realised in adult hood. That's a very cut down version of events!

She has form for trying to manipulate how I spend ky time with DS so C19 has been a life saver for me but awful for her because I'm actually able to parent my way and not hers.
Yesterday she rings me to say she is in a local supermarket and has picked up a jumper she thinks I would like. She asks if she can send me a picture and I'm litterally putting DS in the car to go to the same supermarket (not prearranged.. They live an hour away so wouldn't assume they would be there). Get there and see the jumper and it's reduced to £1. Amazing, I thought. A jumper for a quid! Then she turns to DS and says £1 is all your mother is worth to me.
Ds is one 1 and a half and fell the other day and has a large graze on his chin. DM knows the story (running with hands full, fell, scraped face down the sofa) and says in the middle of a large supermarket, as loud as can me "ow DS, has mummy been beating you again?" I am shocked and immediately say "of course not, you know he fell" but the damage is done and a member of staff stops DM and asks if they can help. Instead of saying "it was a joke" she says "oh no, thank you, it's all under control"... WHAT'S UNDER CONTROL?!!! the poor kid fell. There were lots of tears from him and me at the time.
I'm pregnant again and wondering how long I can get away with not telling her for. I've vowed to never leave my children alone with her again after I witnessed her 'pat' DS a bit too hard for my liking and call him naughty. My mother's 'patting' of me lead to self harm in my teens.
I need to learn to tell her to fuck off, say no, ignore her etc but it's like she's got this jackel and hide personality that has a hold over me.
I'm the youngest of 4, the other 3 seem to have had perfect upbringings and don't have children so don't seem to get it.

God I needed to get that out.

@Elephantonascooter

Your M accused you of child abuse in the supermarket?!

You need to step away from her! That's really appalling.

Have you had some counselling? If not I'd really recommend it. X

I agree with Ballet that performance at the supermarket was unacceptable, it’s all a display of control over you. No compassion for you or your son over his injury or how you might be feeling about it. Just dominance.

What about the rest of your family, your DH and your dad? Your in-laws? I think you’re the scapegoat in all of this, your sibling probably relieved not to be in your shoes. Time to push back. You don’t need to tell her anything, telling her to fuck off would be a bad move, just give her more ammunition against you. Withdraw from her.

Post here, tell your story, clarify how you feel, read it back.