But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Just had to tell my mum we are limited her and DF's Facetime calls with DS. Did it by text so easier than a phone conversation but still had palpitations! Think I've got it down to every fortnight and not at mealtimes, fingers crossed.

I have been NC with my abusive mother for 16 years. And since yesterday I have decided to go very LC with my sister. Long story short: my mother was mentally and physically abusive to me for years, until one day I slapped her back. It took me years to go NC as I had normalised all she had done to me. She has never admitted that what she did to me was wrong, nor will she ever acknowledge it. She feels that she was the victim and that I deserved everything I got. I have heard through the grapevine that she has lied about the reasons that I have gone no contact. No surprise there really. My sister was also abused but to a lesser extent, and she worships the ground my mother walks on. We’ve managed to keep some sort of relationship by not talking about our childhood but lately it has come up (explosively) on a few different occasions, and she flicks between denying the abuse, minimising it and blaming me for what happened as I was difficult apparently. She is very very angry that I have gone no contact with my mother and feels that I should just let go, and move on. I have, just in a way she doesn’t understand. For context, I posted this thread leading up to it all:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3874716-My-sister-blames-me-for-childhood-abuse

My sister’s view as me as the bad gal in all this has been eating away at me for a while as I feel it is setting me back, and I have been writing a long email setting out once and for all my reasons why I need to go very LC with my sister. I didn’t intend to send it, but editing it whenever she says or does something that puts me down, has been helping me. The last straw came when, on a milestone birthday, a couple of days ago, she sent me a mirror with the following quote on a little card:

If you’re looking for faults, use a mirror not a telescope.

At that point I’d just had enough of her using every opportunity she could to take me down a peg or two. I have asked her a few times in the past to accept that I was abused, (even if she cannot accept she was abused too), and to accept that I had to break contact with our mother because of it. Or at the very least to stop making sly little digs towards how I am a bad person for going NC with our poor poor mother. But she says I am a fantasist and keeps trying to put me back into my box. Hence the poisoned gift.

At that point I realised that as an adult I do not have to accept to be treated like that and I can step away. So I sent the email. Maybe I should have stopped contact quietly, and there was part of me that meant to forward the email to myself, so it was in my inbox, but I put her email address in. I think I needed to do it. She sent a long and ranting email back which I didn’t read and just immediately deleted. As I am just so done with her abuse apologist bullshit. But we still have a family WhatsApp which we use to exchange pictures with my dad. I asked her in my email to try and remain civil in the WhatsApp so at least my dad doesn’t get hurt (my parents divorced and the abuse started after my dad left) as he knows enough but I don’t want to drag him into it. He feels bad enough about what went down as it is. She has been sending more quotes in the email as veiled messages about what a bad person I am and how I should just ‘let go’ (more abuse apologist shite there), and I am a bit worried that she will find a way to try and get to me, considering how much thought she must have put into trying to ruin my milestone birthday, but a very big part of me just feel immense relief. Anything I felt for her died when I received that mirror. And I am proud of myself for being able to protect the inner child in me, finally, and walking away from a bad situation.

Hi Nevergoingback:)
She is very very angry that I have gone no contact with my mother and feels that I should just let go, and move on
She's not the boss of you, she doesnt outrank you, what even makes her feel she can tell you what to do!
As you have found out to your cost anything you say can and will be used against you!
I wonder what is the real reason she's so furious? She's making lots of fuss and noise, why so rattled?
Does she somehow sense that without you there to bear the brunt of mother she'll now get it in the neck?
I would stand well clear and covertly observe what happens next.
You have all the power here, sister really really wants and needs you to fall into line and you aint gonna, I think she's worried for herself....

It's a good feeling knowing that I don't care what my sister thinks or says anymore. Neither of them have any power over me any longer, and yes I do think that makes my sister angry. Oh well, not my circus, not my monkeys. I do feel sad for what could have been, but also more free than I have ever felt before .

The stately homes thread has been such a massive help to me. I have read many of the posts, and my heart goes out to all of you. How is it possible that so very much is familiar? Child abuse and its consequences often follow such similar patterns, and the abusers have such similar traits. It's also awful how the behaviour gets normalised and how often many family members get involved in sweeping it all under the carpet, and protecting the abuser (the 'victim'...), making it all the harder for the abused to fight back and finally stand up for themselves. But when it does happen, it feels like being on top of the world. I'm always reminded of that Labyrinth quote: 'You have no power over me'.

@Nevergoingbackthere

You’re amazing. Don’t ever forget that. You are doing the right thing. Your sister is, perhaps, making you the focus of her anger rather your mum. But that doesn’t excuse her bullying you because that’s what she’s doing. She wants you to shut up. It’s great that you’re now being cowed by it and not brushing things under the carpet. I hope the WhatsApp nonsense stops.

I have now been very obviously low contact with my DM for approx 3 weeks.
Its DS's 7th Birthday and she sends him a text to my phone! It's laughable really.

PIL (step-grandparents) to DS have spent all my week planning what they're going to do for DS, they'll be popping round later with presents.

The difference in behaviour is shocking and all the more a reminder that my DM doesn't really care. Not saying she has to spend money on him but you'd think she'd atleast call him to wish him a happy birthday

@Nevergoingbackthere

My sister (golden child) used to send me all sorts of passive aggressive notes with birthday and Christmas cards. I went NC with her years ago much to my mother's horror. She'd played us off against each other our whole lives so don't know how she expected it to end up? Me taking the shit forever I suppose. Now my sister spends all her time on Facebook berating other women on how to bring up their children.

Thank you @monkeyfrommanchester and @bonniebleu and @yellowlemon

I keep trying to imagine how my sister is able to twist things to excuse my mother's behaviour... She's a police officer, and I just imagine her saying to someone confiding in her that they are a victim of domestic abuse: 'Quote of the day: if you're looking for faults, use a mirror, not a telescope...' or 'Turn the other cheek'. Maybe she thinks I'm being a drama queen because it's a long time ago... But if something being a long time ago making it ok, why is she still blaming ME for all the bad things that happened, why is it my fault? Oh I don't know why I'm even giving it headspace, she's an abuse apologist and this is typical behaviour. Sad person that she is.

• makes it ok

@Nevergoingbackthere It's gaslighting. She's trying to make you doubt your own version of events.

I get that, I think, but then she has accused me in the past of doing the exact same thing to her. She said she was there and it wasn't abuse. Even when I gave her the definition of abuse which stated multiple things my mother did (strangling, punching, biting, kicking etc) she then said that that's just 'a' definition of abuse and how dare I not leave all that in the past, if I hadn't been difficult none of it would have happened, aren't people allowed to make mistakes, why don't I 'let go' etc. Hence the mirror quote I guess. The thing is, if either of them would just admit that it was wrong, what happened then, then maybe I could move on whilst still having them in my life. It's the denial, minimalising and trying to put the blame of child abuse on the child which I can't get past. But that makes me a fantasist and a drama queen who is making life difficult for everyone and who is stirring the pot. She messes with my head. It's why I finally decided to cut her out but I still wonder from time to time whether she's right and I did deserve it. Which is crazy I know! I'll get there I'm sure.

@Nevergoingbackthere No child deserves to be abused no matter how 'naughty' they are.

You were a child. You were vulnerable and should have been cared for and nurtured by your mother. She made a choice about how she brought you up.

She will never admit that what she did was wrong, either because she truly doesn't believe she did any wrong, or she won't take responsibility and will continue to lie to keep up the facade.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. I have no blood family because of my mother. But I have friends that I have chosen who love and care about me even when I'm 'naughty' and make mistakes.

@yellowlemon thank you. I feel for you too that you don't have blood family. It sucks. Friends are the family you choose for sure and it sounds like you chose some great ones same here. And I'm grateful for all the good things in my life very day.

@yellowlemon @Heffalooomia

The bubble from toxic mother in law to non toxic mother

So, Friday comes. I work like a dog (competitive freelance job) exhausting.

Talk to my brothers (not seen either since Xmas - we all miss my mum) I am on the phone, DP is cleaning the bathroom, I’m talking gently, bur frankly, to bros about how exhausted I am and her burden on my mental health. They agree we need to sort this out. The night before DP agreed for both of this that we need to change

Cue over dinner “he’s hurt”. It’s his mum.

I have done EVERYTHING since her illness in January. And this has overall been 16 years.

He’s a fucking dolt. Seriously, considering just getting a hotel.

It’s only the case he’s panicking because we’re telling her in 2 weeks ytime that it’s time to be with MY mum. He is scared of her. He actually suggested we divide it up. Ffs. No way.

No fucking words. Won’t go to hotel as the c**t is coming here to be taken by dick head partner to eye test tomorrow and she would probably move in AGAIN if I wasn’t here.

I am going on Mon to get haircut with fab 67 year old neighbour and DP has suggested Toxic one goes with me. Is he fucking mental? No. This is my space.

He’s feeling guilty because the end is nigh.

I am aleady looking at cottages mid way between mum and brother & his boyfriend and just stand in a beach for an hour.

Beyond fucked off.

Aaaaaaagh.

This is quite hard for me to write about and I haven’t told anyone or said it out loud ever.

Growing up I think my mum abused me. I have several vivid memories.

The first- I had chickenpox I remember I was about 6 or 7.
I needed camomile lotion applying, I remember been stripped naked and standing in the room while my mum rubbed lotion all over me, she put it everywhere including my genitals and I remember pushing her hand away, she just kept applying more and more.

The second memory is when I was about 14 I was having a bath (we weren’t allowed locks on any doors) and she just walked in. Sat on the toilet and talked to me. I was hugging the side of the bath trying to hide myself and she continued talking and commenting on my body - maybe normal mum and daughter stuff but it made me really uncomfortable I asked her to leave and she got up picked up the towels and left the room. Telling me I had call her when I wanted out of the bath and she would bring me the towel. I tried to wait it out thinking she was joking and would bring them back. But after quite a bit of time I had to call out for a towel- she stood in the doorway and despite my protests I ended up having to get out of the bath trying to cover myself. She then gave me the towel I wrapped it around myself and then she started patting the outside of towel (like patting dry) over my breasts. She told me at this point that I was ‘blooming into a woman’ this is a phrase she would say in front of other relatives and friends it always made me feel horrible .
The third memory is of been in the shower - I was maybe 14 and I was struggling with my body image by this age- I had struggled with my body image all the way through my teens and always felt ashamed. I still do. She came in with my younger sister and just stood there talking. Commenting on my body and not leaving although I was protesting and yelling at them to leave. After this incident- I started demanding more privacy my dad put a lock on the bathroom door- I was able to have a lock on my bedroom and I started distancing myself from my mum.

There are lots of other comments made that have made me uncomfortable throughout my teens mostly commenting on my body. Phoning my aunties, grandparents when I got my first period even though I begged her not to.
Things I’ve blanked out are coming back now.
When I was 15 we were at a family friends house and the friends son was there with his friends they were aged about 18-20 and she decided to tell them my bra size, told them I didn’t have a gag reflex (no idea where this came from). I cried I was so humiliated.
At this time what I didn’t know was that she was having an affair, my dad found out and left her. I moved with my dad.
I am late 30’s now and do not have a relationship with my mum. I see her maybe once a year and it is very much just a general polite chat. I freeze when she tries to hug me. My other siblings have a better relationship with my mum than my dad and my sister does let understand why I don’t see my mum more often. (They live within 15 min drive).

Now I don’t know if it was just my mum trying to do mother daughter things-bond during bath time etc all I know is I felt uncomfortable, I felt like she was been intrusive and not respecting my boundaries.
I’ve never brought this up with her but the lasting affects for me are - issues with my body image. I feel vulnerable if fully naked and am only ever naked when bathing. I cover up and am very modest in how I dress.
I cannot take compliments even from my partner and I do not like to be hugged or touched by people. I hug my partner and very close friends( friends are normally only if I’m drunk).
I don’t think I will ever speak to my mum about this, but I felt I needed to get it out.

@Redvelo34 what your mum did to you sounds very inappropriate and like she enjoyed seeing you squirm. I'm sorry for what happened to you. The freezing when she tries to hug you is something that happened to me as well, years before I went NC, her touch disgusted me. I had blocked memories out too, and I think recoiling at their touch is the body's defence against someone who hurt us badly.

Hi Redvelo, welcome to the stately homes thread.
Your mother was abusive, I don't think there can be any other reading of what you describe, what she did was about controlling humiliating and trying to crush you.
the horror confusion and fear that you feel when a parent whom you've been programmed to trust behaves in a way that you know is wrong but acts like they're not doing anything wrong
because you don't speak out you feel as if you've been complicit but how can you speak out if you don't understand what's happening and you don't feel able to challenge them because theyre in a position of authority.
like a cat toying with a mouse just for the fun of it, ignoring your confusion pain and humiliation:(
this is not the behaviour of a loving parent this is the behaviour of an abuser you did not deserve this.
How are you this evening?

Nevergoingbackthere

You being told to "let it go" from your golden child abuse apologist of a sister reminded me of this article. I post it here because it may be of some help:-

emergingfrombroken.com/the-truth-about-being-told-to-get-over-it-and-let-it-go/

Redvelo

I was saddened to read what happened to you in your childhood. What happened to you here was and remains in no way your fault; this is all on your abusive mother. Where was your dad here; how aware was he of all this from his wife towards you?. I am so sorry that none of the adults seemingly saw fit to protect you here from her abuse.

Speaking to your mother about any of this would be a wasted effort; such people never apologize nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Her actions have left you with a lot of emotional damage which needs unpicking thread by thread.

I would urge you to contact NAPAC as a starting point as they could be of real help to you; their link is here :-

napac.org.uk/

I too was absolutely repulsed by my mother and couldn’t bear to be touched by her.

I had no privacy when I was young - no locks on the bathroom or bedroom doors - and she’d often fling open the door when I was having a bath or getting dressed and sort of stare with this wild-eyed grin on here face.

If I ever asked what she wanted she’d say she just wanted to see where I was. Then she’d go and leave the door wide open. So I’d then have to risk getting out of the bath with my dad or sister seeing me.

If I ever had to get changed for something (swimming, beach, school play etc) she’d make me strip naked in front of complete strangers. No trying to shield me with a towel or getting half undressed and putting your swimming costume on under your skirt to minimise the nakedness.

When I started growing breasts there was no nice discrete ‘My first bra’. Instead she’d managed to get some hand me down bras from an older, much more developed girl at school. God knows how she’d procured them - probably a sob story about how we couldn’t afford things (not true).

So I had to wear these massive bras that just bunched up under my school shirt and were really visible.

Despite being obsessed with bodily functions she didn’t use proper words for them. So I still cringe over words like ‘try’ or ‘bunny’, as these were the words my mother substituted instead.

Of course the whole thing left me with major hang-ups about my body, being touched, being intimate, even going to the doctor to get contraception for the first time.

@Redvelo34 I understand how hard it is to talk about. What happened to you wasn’t right and it wasn’t your fault. Keep talking here - you are amongst people who get where you’re coming from, and will believe and support you.

Hello. Can I join?

I have very controlling parents who, still to this day, will voice their opinion on every aspect of my life and criticise everything.

I am not strong enough to talk to them about their behaviour and how it's made me feel because they will always turn it around so that they are the victim and I am the problem.

I grew up walking on egg shells as my dads moto was "I hit first and ask questions later". My mum always claimed she was depressed but never done anything about it so always brought us down with her moods.

This is just the very tip of the iceberg but I want to slowly open up...

Welcome Reginaa

You'll feel understood here @reginaaphalange I only joined in a while ago but it is a relief that people get it and don't say ''life is short!!!! just forgive him/her''.

I had an emotional epiphany yesterday. It has thrown a guilt sandbag over board.

I already understood this rationally, but listening to Jerry Wise on youtube yesterday, something just clicked and let go.

All it is is this;

As my parents feel no guilt at having labelled me paranoid for 30+ years, and no concern for the pain that that caused me, then it is definitely 'ok' for me to feel no guilt at having verbalised my experience to them and no concern for the 'hurt' they're going through now. [lightbulb]

This sounds so obvious and I know I've been saying it for weeks. But I think yesterday I just felt it. Like, a really deep visceral shrug came over me.

So parents, let's play cards. I see your hand, I see your shrug, and I raise you no dramatic hand, no risky move, no soul baring hand, just my own shrug.

Jerry wise is good on Youtube, he is a family of origin counsellor and talks about family structures.