But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Gredd
I’m so sorry you have to deal with this on both fronts. And good on you for challenging your M on her trying to introduce your DC to “her way of doing things”. This description of your M is my experience of my toxic MIL. She used the silent treatment on her children which is so horrible. My DP said he’d almost prefer being physically attacked than that.

So, Toxic Mother In Law has a medical appointment at 11.30am, it’s 10 minutes away, she wheedled her way to coming here at 10am. She rang at 8.30am to say she was on her way. I predicted this. This is what she always does. She rings when she’s nearly here: “do you want me to walk all the way back to my flat?” She’s 84 with limited mobility so, of course, we don’t. Well, we do, actually. Maybe, we should start saying this but then you have the obligation and the guilt. It’s compete manipulation as it’s a fait accompli. My partner has a very stressful job working for a charity, I’m freelance. We don’t have time to wait hand and foot on her or deal with the incessant drama unless it’s planned in. I’ve put the teabags out for her and left her sulking on the sofa. She’s fucking vile. She will angle to be here until there’s someone coming to her flat to measure her windows for blinds to replace the NEWSPAPERS up at her window at 3pm. She is a nightmare.

Gredd

re this part of your comment re how to navigate it to protect myself and not be pulled in.

The only surefire way is not to engage with them at all or be in their dramas in the first place. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

My MIL is very much as you described your own MIL and I have learnt it is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

"So, Toxic Mother In Law has a medical appointment at 11.30am, it’s 10 minutes away, she wheedled her way to coming here at 10am. She rang at 8.30am to say she was on her way. I predicted this. This is what she always does. She rings when she’s nearly here: “do you want me to walk all the way back to my flat?”

To which you should say yes. Do not further JADE such a person (i.e justify, argue, defend or explain your decision). Also if she can walk to yours she can certainly walk back again. She is doing this because she can. She knows that she will be let into your home and your partner is frightened of her.

"She’s 84 with limited mobility so, of course, we don’t. Well, we do, actually. Maybe, we should start saying this but then you have the obligation and the guilt. It’s compete manipulation as it’s a fait accompli".

At least you recognise this for the manipulation of yourselves that this is and that is a start. Your MIL does not feel any sense of FOG here but your good self and your man here have FOG in spades. This is how he has been harmed by his mother, small wonder therefore he has anxiety. This is also how she is able to come over 3 hours prior to some medical appointment and sit on your sofa expecting to be waited on. Ultimately both of you will need to decide to have no contact with her because she does not care and will keep on invading your space otherwise. You could also go onto resent your partner a lot more because of his mother too.

And she can go to her flat after her medical appointment; there is no reason at all for her to be returning to your home.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
Thank you for telling me this.
Partner is dropping her back at her flat in a cab after her appointment that way she can’t wheedle to stay here before the appointment with the blinds people. I’m going at 2.30pm, probably later, as I’m not sitting in her flat being needled by her. She’s just punished me by saying there’s no food in her flat for me. I don’t eat my lunch at 3pm, I’ve just pointed out. She’s just guilt tripped us by saying her blood pressure is probably through the roof because of all the workmen. I think we were supposed to say “poor you, why not stay here?” No fucking way. We just ignored the comment.
Luckily, I don’t resent my partner because he’s a star and now sees how she operates. She’s sighing on the landing. Neither of us have come out of our “offices”. Mine is sitting on my bed with a tray and my laptop on a tea tray because I can’t sit at my dining table.
Sorry for moaning, I feel like her!
Really appreciate everyone’s support here. What a great bunch of women you are. So many hard stories.

@yellowlemon

Last line - what I mean is that she was desperate for me to go to university and get a good job (no doubt to show off to other people), but when I did do those things despite her she actually acted like she was insanely jealous or it still wasn't good enough.

A game you can never win.

This is so my mother 😮

@WiserOlder

I had a thread ''my mother thinks my hurt is an act of aggression against her'' last week, and I had so much good advice and support on it. *@AttilaTheMeerkat* bumped this thread for me.

My brother the golden child is coming over for lunch today (because he is teaching one of my DC) and thanks to the advice i've had, I know now..

1. Do not talk about M&D (so that they cannot use him as their ONE WAY mouth piece)
2. Be breezy, calm, content... (easy so long as subject of M&D avoided)

My parents are not speaking to me atm because I told them they hurt me but as well as shutting down all comms. they are blaming me for the rift.

I wish now I hadn't fallen in to the trap of trying to make my brother understand. He can only see them from his golden child perspective.

I should have just stuck to the facts ''they haven't responded to my text telling them why I was hurt since 2nd of May''. Instead, I fell in to the trap of allowing them to appoint the Golden Child the Judge and Jury of my ''behavior''. He listened to both sides and then as the judge decided that the solution was for me to forget everything, let everything go, be the bigger person, go back to heel.

So, I regret that I even briefly tried to play along with him being a mediator. It achieved nothing and now he thinks I'm difficult as well.

So, I will get out of bed and get ready, relieved I know what the best way to act is. It's not an act. But I know what to do. Grateful for that.
I'm seeing therapist tomorrow after work and I'm glad.

I saw your thread.

I must say I have come to realise that I can no longer speak to my brother about what DM does. He is GC, judge and jury.

Listens to both sides...and as of last week told me that "If I approached DM differently about stuff her responses to me would be different”

I feel better for being on this thread as I can get advise that isn't tainted with "but poor DM"

It does change the dynamics of my relationship with him. I played such a big part in raising him because DF and DM couldn't care less. He was quiet (introvert) child, and I always thought it was just me and him. It's even more frustrating because he knows exactly what she's like

@BonnieBleu Oh yes Bonnie, - all these super special, very unique, better than anyone else people are all the same.

Relatives who are enmeshed with the narcissist, be they enabler, golden child or scapegoat will always take the side of the narc and persuade you to smother your own feelings. They know that one less player in the game creates more problems for them.

Narcs divide and rule. Don’t engage, keep your boundaries, recognise the danger.

I am a complete bitch and revelling in it. We went to meet the blinds man (total bonus as he was so hot). The noise from the surrounding flats’ building work was really bad. She kept looking at DP with puppy dog eyes as if to say “take me with you”. We both ignored this. If you behave like a See You Next Tuesday, THIS is the result. airpunch

Yes the golden child thinks he /she is impartial but what is most convenient for them is that you smother your feelings. 🍷

Oh yes, the GC are so uniquely superior! I recall GC SIL tell DH that if he only made more effort and visited more then our DC would have a better relationship with their GM. So effectively she is to sit and wait while her GC are bestowed upon her and no effort is to be made on her part. It’s utter nonesense but suits their narrative. It’s our behaviour not theirs, if only we were more compliant we would be brought into the fold. They can keep it.

I totally accept that it’s really not possible to have any sort of healthy relationship with these people, however I come from a family of estrangement and NC. While it might be the best or even only option for some it does ripple out wider, it makes certain occasions very difficult and everyone thinks they have a right to an opinion on it (they think they are being well meaning but they don’t understand and it just serves to make the situation feel more difficult in some ways. As if someone who has gone NC hasn’t spent a long time thinking it thought) Ultimately, going NC for me would cause great difficulty in some relationships I would like to keep for ourselves and our DC. I’m not quite willing to pay that price just yet... this may change. I’m hoping to continue LC, trying time to master my “chill” is the biggest challenge here for me.

@MonkeyfromManchester - it's funny that you describe yourself as being a complete bitch and revelling in it.

That's how I used to feel about myself when I set boundaries or ever said No to my mother when I was still in contact.

They make us feel that we're so obliged that anything that we might do for ourselves is seen as bitchy behaviour, and anything that doesn't pander to their wants and needs is answering back.

Keep on ignoring her and keep on being a bitch. It's a great feeling when you realise you can do it and there's actually f all they can do about it.

@yellowlemon
Exactly. You nail it. Take back the power.
YES! I’m reclaiming Bitch. There is fuck all she can do about it. She cannot believe that she’s going home after the two hours of the work is done tomorrow. She’s here at 8.30am and banished at 10.30am. Every excuse under the sun to stay. I DO NOT CARE ONE JOT. If you behave badly, there are consequences. My mum, I’m glad, to say is completely different and I wanted to cry when I FaceTimed this afternoon.

I feel really callous too.
Because im not going back to the mother who hasnt answered my text telling her i am hurt since 2nd May 🙈
Im not going to make contact with her this time.
But it makes me feel strangely callous

if you behave badly there are consequences
You might be the only person who's ever stood up to her, I reckon she might even back down start behaving herself...
(long shot I know)

@WiserOlder

I feel really callous too. Because im not going back to the mother who hasnt answered my text telling her i am hurt since 2nd May 🙈 Im not going to make contact with her this time. But it makes me feel strangely callous

I feel this too. Because I haven't invited my toxic father over again after he upset me last time by screaming his unwanted opinions at me. How do they get us to this point!?

@WiserOlder
I’m so sorry. It’s so hard to do this. She’s being callous.Abusers can’t take responsibility and love nothing better than having you do the running.

It’s not remotely the same thing at all, but in my 20s I left my emotionally and physically abusive boyfriend (complete shit). It was so hard to leave him. An older friend got me one of those A4 notebooks and got me to write every single thing that he did thar hurt me. It ranged from the grim to his inability to cook anything else but spaghetti. I just did bullet points. It was painful at first but it helped me to stay away from him. I did this whilst on the waiting list for therapy. It was in black and white, the moment I was wavering I looked at it. It helped me.

@Heffalooomia
You know what? I reckon I am. She’s not going to get her own way.

When I joined this thread Atilla said that a lot of narcissists get stuck at around age 4-6 and I think that was my mother. Everything was like playing to her, including having children. I don't think it ever occurred to her that her kids may grow up to be different and have their own personalities and hopes and dreams.

I came to this conclusion about my mother too. I think she loved me and my siblings very much but it was in the way that a child loves a doll. We were given affection (kisses, hugs etc), fed well, kept warm, well dressed, but we were never taught how to grow up and navigate life, just like a child couldn't teach a doll to grow up. We were never able to express our own personalities or have dreams or ambitions of our own, just as a doll couldn't.

A counselor I saw told me that children and teenagers "explore" their identities as they grow up to find out who they are. Being "a doll" I was never allowed to do this and as a result I feel lost. I struggle to negotiate my way through life's ups and downs and have found myself on the receiving end of quite bad abuse (hence the counselor) - I'm sure a lot of this comes from not being allowed to develop an identity as an individual.

It's just occurred to me that even as an 86 year old my mother still buys dolls and finds them cute & adorable (not sure what the emoji is for shakes head sadly).

@RiveterRosie My mother was the same. She thinks she's the most wonderful mother in the world because she can pick up and cuddle a baby. But once children get to about 3 that's it, the bile sets in, and she has absolutely no idea how they might tick. I remember her thinking that a suitable present for a 14 year old boy was a jigsaw puzzle!!!

But weirdly she also expects small children to perfectly behave themselves. There are things that my cousins did when they were young children that she has never forgiven them for 40 plus years later. And she has a whole grudge list for me!!!

I was never allowed to develop any sense of self as a child or a teenager and by then I was so into the FOG that I couldn't rebel either so I entered the world as a young adult with no idea who I really was yet still desperate to please my parents (even though I now know with hindsight that was always going to be impossible).

And yes, my mother is still intellectually really immature. I can't think of a book she's read or a TV programme she's watched that requires any sort of thinking.

@RiveterRosie
That’s so true about narcissists not being able to “facilitate” growth. Really sad, too. It’s important to equip your kids with their own tools.

This thread is keeping me sane. I’m high maintenance (!) at the moment until the mother in law’s building work is done.

The Ex Lodger was supposed to arrive here at 8.30am. I can read her like a book and knew she would then be late this morning, after turning up two hours early yesterday, so we would “worry” She would have been waiting for our phone call. We didn’t ring. She ALWAYS rings to say she’s on her way even if it’s from our drive so we can’t say no, don’t come in as we told you 10.30am and it’s 8.30am. She is so devious, but I’ve sussed it.

I’m in hourly contact with the builders at her flat - I don’t delegate this back to her and I have full control of the facts this way. Nothing can be twisted. They are decorating her flat on Monday and Tuesday. They don’t know what time it will start exactly but they will ring me at 8am on Monday and I will call her and she can put her coat on and walk here.

Just explained this.

Cue massive fuss.
Me: “what’s the alternative?” More bluster. “What’s the alternative?”.

I know the alternative she wants, she knows the alternative she wants - she wants to stay here til the 17 September - but she can’t ask for what she wants because 1) she only “asks” for what she wants by manipulation, bullying and guilt tripping and 2) she knows she runs the risk of a straight up no from us which is what will happen. My line is no explanation and no apology. She will push and push and push via phone calls and directly when my partner takes her for an eye test on Saturday. Standing firm. Proud of myself.

Narcissists have normal, even superior, intellectual development while remaining emotionally and morally immature. Dealing with them can give you the sense of trying to have a reasonable discussion with a very clever six-year-old -- this is an age when normal children are grandiose and exhibitionistic, when they are very resistant to taking the blame for their own misbehavior, when they understand what the rules are (e.g., that lying, cheating, and stealing are prohibited) but are still trying to wriggle out of accepting those rules for themselves.

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when when something more interesting comes along.

She can't ask for what she wants
I recognise this and as you say they will not ask out right because that gives you the opportunity to say no and then give valid reasons which they cannot dispute.
So it's all hinting and manipulation🙄
You just have to learn to ignore the hinting and not respond to the manipulation

@Heffalooomia
I feel your pain. It’s exhausting as you have to work out the game and play along or start to get assertive which is hard when there’s guilt and all the rest of it.

She knows she can’t play me. She thinks she can still play both her sons. One knows he’s being played but still goes along with it. The other - partner - knows and now pushes back. He can’t see all the game playing but he’s working it out a lot more now.

Just now, we had her needling us about her disabled son (who is, rightly, delighted to be off the hook!) who finds it hard when people park outside his house.
Partner: only J can sort that out.
Defeated silence from her.

I can’t even work out what that was about - are we supposed to feel bad because of that? Realise how much she did for him? One of those narcissistic curve balls? Not a flipping clue. I don’t take anything she says at face value anymore.

All of this conversation is a revelation to me! Thank you,

@AttilaTheMeerkat so true, my mother is in charge of the game. ''You be the daughter''.

The weird thing is, before communications between us ceased, my mother and I had discussed how my DC have emotionally outgrown their father, and she feels so superior to him, pities him his lack of insight and the cost that has on his relationships with his children. But she can't draw any parallels between my x and her defensive shut down with me now.

I had my psychotherapy session yesterday and it was useful, again. We are going to come back to me regaining a strong narrative in my own home.ie, feelings do matter in this house. I can't stop my teens going there but I need to make sure that they don't buy in to this toxic narrative that I'm dramatic, sensitive, silly, unhappy etc etc

Anybody else seeing a psychotherapist atm?
How are you finding it?

I am feeling grounded by it. It stops me doubting myself. Mumsnet also helps me believe in my own right to have my own experience.

yellowlemon - my mother could win an Olympic medal at bearing a grudge and she takes offense at the slightest thing.

What makes me feel particularly sad is that I find myself more and more "grey rocking" her. We never really have proper conversations and I wish that we could. Today I disagreed with something she said - something really trivial about when to trim back some ivy growing in the garden - she gave me a look of such disgust & contempt that I wanted to burst into tears. I was thinking about it later and it made me think how she stole away my voice when I was a child/teenager and she still steals it now because by grey rocking I don't say what I'm thinking/doing/feeling.

WiserOlder Your psychotherapy sounds good, hopefully when I get a bit more money together I'll be able to see a therapist myself.