But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Monkey A person with a normal approach to that situation wouldn’t use anger. It’s rage at not getting her own way. She thinks you should do as she says rather than asking you and making other arrangements if it’s not convenient, like a normal grown up.

Meet the anger with indifference. At most - ‘I can see you’re angry but I’ve made my decision’

And she doesn’t see it as abuse or even bad behaviour, she’ll be convinced she’s the victim. DARVO, all day long.

Monkey, it may just come down to ...she views herself as the highest ranking person and believes that everyone should automatically and unquestioningly obey
The minute anyone fails to obey her she becomes angry, when you are angry your focus tends to narrow to your immediate concerns, there are no pathways to self awareness for her.
I'm not trying to excuse her but all this is probably baked into her and will not change ☹️

@Fanthorpe @Heffalooomia
It is rage and it is absolutely about her seeing her needs as primary. I am having a lovely day lolling around reading after the 10 days of simmering toxicity of her being here. I couldn’t relax when she was here. My partner said his childhood was waiting for her to explode and lash out. Unsurprisingly, he has anxiety.

@Frownette I believe you can go on a restricted electoral register that allows you to vote but can't be seen by the general public?

I'm so grateful for this thread. Reading all your stories and seeing all the advise on here is helping me be so much stronger within my own situation xx

I had a thread ''my mother thinks my hurt is an act of aggression against her'' last week, and I had so much good advice and support on it. @AttilaTheMeerkat bumped this thread for me.

My brother the golden child is coming over for lunch today (because he is teaching one of my DC) and thanks to the advice i've had, I know now..

1. Do not talk about M&D (so that they cannot use him as their ONE WAY mouth piece)
2. Be breezy, calm, content... (easy so long as subject of M&D avoided)

My parents are not speaking to me atm because I told them they hurt me but as well as shutting down all comms. they are blaming me for the rift.

I wish now I hadn't fallen in to the trap of trying to make my brother understand. He can only see them from his golden child perspective.

I should have just stuck to the facts ''they haven't responded to my text telling them why I was hurt since 2nd of May''. Instead, I fell in to the trap of allowing them to appoint the Golden Child the Judge and Jury of my ''behavior''. He listened to both sides and then as the judge decided that the solution was for me to forget everything, let everything go, be the bigger person, go back to heel.

So, I regret that I even briefly tried to play along with him being a mediator. It achieved nothing and now he thinks I'm difficult as well.

So, I will get out of bed and get ready, relieved I know what the best way to act is. It's not an act. But I know what to do. Grateful for that.
I'm seeing therapist tomorrow after work and I'm glad.

@WiserOlder
I hope all goes well today, as you say allowing your brother to act as mediator opens a pathway for him to act as judge and jury, to position himself as someone who absolutely outranks you.
Get him back in his proper place, keep control of the discourse!

Yes. I must remember this. I know it. But I must resist the inclination to give him a platform to give me his verdict.

I played it all wrong to start with, but better late than never.

Maybe have some phrases ready to shut down the conversation before he gets going?

I think he will stick to not bringing it up first, but he is more likely to make very very subtle remarks. Like if I say I havent heard from somebody in a while he might say "have you fallen out with them?". Ykwim?
I havent fallen out with anybody except my parents!

It's great when you recognise thier patterns and techniques and you can easily outmanoeuvre them😊

Phew, lunch, coffee, maths, no fights, no passive aggressive digs.

@MonkeyfromManchester

Just checking in - but your post made me give a wry smile.

'Woe betide' - one of my mother's favourite expressions, and
'S/he hasn't phoned me', or 'it was his/her turn to phone me' (said like it's the end of the world) - well you phone them if you're so desperate to speak to them. Never understanding of course that there's a reason why they haven't phoned

This is why this thread is so great - finally knowing that we're not alone.

@Fanthorpe
The point you made about the conversational tactic is EXACTLY how a conversation goes. I sit in amazement at how the conversation goes. Yesterday narcissist mother in law had an argument about a window lock key which then morphed into some unrelated grievance. Total batshit. My partner needs to stop the engagement with it.

@yellowlemon
She’s not here so life is GREAT.

Partner is taking her to a doctor’s appointment at 11.30am tomorrow. The Dr is 10 minutes away. She is coming to our house at 10am. I have NO doubt she will be here at 9am.

Oh, god, the phone thing. It’s ridiculous and self-pitying. My brother’s boyfriend’s mum does exactly the same. They moved out of London and she has never visited them because they moved out of London.

I’d love to know how/why narcissism starts. The Toxic Lodger had an abusive impoverished childhood. There’s a resentment of my family for having nice things ( total champagne socialists we are) and I think we’re supposed to feel guilty for having a nice life. It’s bizarre.

@MonkeyfromManchester

I think my mother was completely indulged as a child. I remember my father saying something to that effect.

She is incredibly childlike - from the books she reads, to the clothes she wears. Our house was filled with all sorts of crap from her childhood. Quite ironic that someone so invested in Christianity was unable to put away childish things.

When I joined this thread Atilla said that a lot of narcissists get stuck at around age 4-6 and I think that was my mother. Everything was like playing to her, including having children. I don't think it ever occurred to her that her kids may grow up to be different and have their own personalities and hopes and dreams.

And yes, she also had a fairly impoverished childhood by today's standards. So wanting and working hard for and having nice things was always met with resentment or complete indifference.

It's why it was impossible to ever make her proud of me.

Last line - what I mean is that she was desperate for me to go to university and get a good job (no doubt to show off to other people), but when I did do those things despite her she actually acted like she was insanely jealous or it still wasn't good enough.

A game you can never win.

@yellowlemon
It’s bizarre, isn’t it? Resenting your children. Completely nuts.

It’s weird as the rest of her family are so unlike her. She never sees her grandchildren, she never rings them. The only way she does see them is that my sister in law (DP’s brother was the Golden Child, “successful” serially unfaithful, emotionally, physically and sexually abusive, and deserted his wife and kids), DP and I organise them coming to Scotland and they stay at my mum’s. You’d think you’d want to stay in touch with your grandchildren but apparently not. I think a lot of the behaviour of Toxic Brother In Law comes from his mother.

@MonkeyfromManchester None of my mother's siblings are like her either. When I was younger she always used to complain that they never contacted her or wanted to see her and of course I thought that there was something wrong with them.

It was when I finally met them (at cousin's weddings etc) and saw they were normal people it helped with how I was starting to think about my mother.

My GC sister is a complete clone of my mother. She's never worked a day in her life, is married to a controlling abusive man, doesn't really have any friends or interests in life, and probably deep down is very unhappy. Yet to my mother she is a success.

I feel very sorry for my sister and it goes to show that GC can be just as damaged by narcissistic parents as the scapegoats. But she is too deeply enmeshed to see it and try to change.

For years I wanted to 'rescue' her but now I realise there is no point. I have been NC with her for a long time and went full NC with my mother the end of last year. It's strange having no family at all (I'm not married and have no children) but at least I am free.

@yellowlemon
I’m with Armisted Maupin on the idea of a logical family. It’s better to be out of the abuse into something better of our own making.

@MonkeyfromManchester - Oh I must look that up. I have a very mothworn collection of Tales of the City - 1993 editions, just checked, and didn't that make me feel old - and I loved Maybe the Moon.

So good to hear he has a perspective on the subject.

I just wanted to say I am so grateful for this thread, it has helped me understand so much & it is reassuring to know I am not alone in this. Though I am sad for all of us, who are looking for something we will never find. Healthy relationships with these people... through this thread I have finally realised for my own situation that this isn’t possible so now it’s working out how to navigate it to protect myself and not be pulled in.

MIL is a clear narc, everything is surface, about appearance and how it looks to the outside world. Relationships have no substance and she takes no interest in anyone other than herself and GC though works hard to appear to be a wonderful mother and grandmother. Pictures of her son & grandchildren to show others but no interest or input in their lives. They are rolled out for family occasions and Facebook photo opportunities to enhance that public perception she holds close with nothing to back up the impression she gives to everyone she is interested in looking good to.

My M on the other hand is a covert narcissist. Takes no interest or pride in appearance or perception of how she is. Makes out “I am who I am” is “alternative” “doesn’t care what people think” so it took me a long time to work out she was the same but dressed in a different package. I spent most of my life wondering how I had upset her without intent, being drawn in by her “making an effort” only for the snap to come later when she brought me in close enough to hurt me. Regular stonewalling, ignoring me for days as a child when I would scramble to work out what I had done wrong. She has recently been put firmly in her place as her behaviour was spilling over to a point where my DC was let down when she started playing one of her games. This has never happened before and she was told in no uncertain terms it wouldn’t be tolerated. She licked her wounds briefly though has now ramped up her behaviour I presume as some sort of way of getting control back. We are extremely LC at the moment and contact is brief as I have been leaving immediately upon her starting her behaviour in our company. I take that as my point to leave, as soon as she starts “pretending” she hasn’t heard me, or whatever tactic she is using that day, I look at my watch and it’s time to go. I am amazed I can still be surprised by her behaviour, I know what’s going to happen but there is a piece of me that always holds out hope it will be different one day, I think it is the want deep inside for it to be different that keeps bobbing to the surface. I know it never will be and for all of us I am sorry.

[quote Tinyleaf]@Frownette I believe you can go on a restricted electoral register that allows you to vote but can't be seen by the general public?[/quote]
You're right, I'm just nervous about signing it. I'm still getting daily phone calls.

@yellowlemon, what you said has resonance. Unfortunately they get stuck on some sort of level and cannot see anyone else.