But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Your dad is a master manipulator.

Transfer that 10K back asap; do not have yourself further beholden to him financially. Gifts too should come with ribbons, not strings and this is absolutely fully loaded with obligation.

This is also NOT a gift and besides which you did not ask for it. Such people like your dad can and indeed do use money as a means of further controlling their victims and its a tactic that works.

Do indeed go back into counselling.

My children were smiling and excited to hear I had a brother! My eldest said "we told him mummy says she doesn't have brothers or sisters and he replied 'yes she does, she has an older brother' and showed them photos of him.

I was honest with my children and said i see myself as an only child because he's no brother to me and I told them a little about the bullying he did to me as a child (left out the abuse obviously). My eldest was sniggering which was a bit hurtful, I think she enjoyed the drama to be honest. My younger two said 'poor mummy he was a meany'. They haven't brought it up since.

Yes my husband said to send it back otherwise I'd feel guilty. So did. And I've felt guilty about sending it back ever since!

he had given me and my brother a 'gift' each. So then I started feeling obliged again
you're on the payroll, he thinks you are obliged to 'work' for him now, prob best to just transfer it back, as per Atilla's post
( but if it was me I think I'd take the money and laugh in the 's face)
what a vile bully, get rid, get rid.
The normalising and trivialising of child sex abuse is horrific, these things are very traumatising, I'm so sorry for what you suffered, the not being taken seriously when you find the courage to disclose is so damaging, you trusted her enough to tell her and she pretty much laughs in your face.
Do not think of them as parents, see them as a random entry point into the world, now go and build the life you deserve and want

And I've felt guilty about sending it back ever since! confused
noooo, feel PLEASED
you have stood up to and insulted a horrible bully
NICE WORK
you deserve a reward, and keep up the good work:)

Thank you I've just enrolled back with my counsellor to try and get over my feelings of guilt/ obligation/ fear etc.

You're right I'm on the payroll. I'd put money on the fact that he thinks I'm a petulant child behaving like this after he paid for my wedding (where everything was on his terms) my uni fees (to get a career I didnt want) and towards my house (after I moved near him to help him out after he kept having tantrums).

after he paid for
I try to look at it like this, the person has tricked you into a deal that you werent aware of, they knew damn well what they were doing and how easy it is to control you with money, had they said 'I will pay for x and in return I expect you to do y' then you'd know exactly what the deal was and you could refuse but because they are your parent you feel you have to trust them and never challenge or question

and they keep you in that subordinate role, never allowing you to stand with them as an equal adult, always asserting themselves as a kind of 'superadult' always positioning themselves as the highest ranking person.
Knock him off his pedestal, he's just a throwback from the old days when women were property, no one wants that shit now.
You are a modern woman, you dont have to live his his messed up world from the dark ages!

Have any of you ever written s letter to a deceased stately homes mother?
And if so has it helped?

I’ve gone to her grave a few times to ‘talk’ but end up overwhelmed.

I’m approaching 50 and have kept all my ‘stuff’ hidden in a box in my brain up until recently. I honestly don’t feel strong enough to talk to anybody ( apart from my amazing DH) but the feelings of hurt and betrayal and loss are starting to become much more prevalent.

Is there any point in writing a letter she won’t ever read?

@Dominicgoings

Have any of you ever written s letter to a deceased stately homes mother? And if so has it helped?

I’ve gone to her grave a few times to ‘talk’ but end up overwhelmed.

I’m approaching 50 and have kept all my ‘stuff’ hidden in a box in my brain up until recently. I honestly don’t feel strong enough to talk to anybody ( apart from my amazing DH) but the feelings of hurt and betrayal and loss are starting to become much more prevalent.

Is there any point in writing a letter she won’t ever read?

I haven't personally tried it because I know my parents response would be "but we did everything for you / that didnt happen" etc. But maybe it's worth a try of you think it will help?

What I have done as part of my therapy is I have talked to my younger self (I imagined she was sat in a chair next to me) and told her that I was sorry for what she went through and that she didnt deserve it and I'd make sure I'd make her happy from now on.

I wrote and then shredded a letter to my late FIL soon after his funeral. In my case it was a cathartic exercise.

You’ve got nothing to lose by writing a letter to someone’s who’s dead. The worst thing that could happen us you’ll stare blankly at the paper, the best is that you’ll see it all more clearly and feel you’ve purged it a bit.

If you would consider working with a good therapist you could do this in a really cathartic way, the therapist supports you to talk to her as if she were your mother, and helps you to work through your trauma in a safe way.

I’m glad you have your DH and I think it’s better to keep quiet if you can’t trust other people (most don’t understand) but please don’t feel any shame about your relationship with her, it was her responsibility to be your parent, she let you down.

I’ve not posted on here before and not sure if I should.
I’m currently staying with parents with DH and our 2 DC’s whilst we wait to move into our new house. Been here for two weeks, until end of week.
Anyway, it’s like the scales have dropped from my eyes with regards to my dad.
He’s in his early 70s, he has lung disease and does absolutely nothing. I’m just not sure if this is normal. He gets up and then sits on the sofa all day then goes to bed. My mum is running round after him, bringing his coffee, making lunch, walking dog. It is unbelievable to me how lazy he is. But on top of this incredibly selfish behaviour is how unpleasant he is and it’s really hard for me to articulate it all.

I’ve realised over the past weeks that I’ve been conditioned to think his behaviour is normal. We spent our childhood walking on eggshells, And I have this fear of confronting him about his behaviour. How his dark moods and silence would make us feel unsettled. How my mum would shush us or make us speak in whispers. He would explode into rages, hit us if we said or did the wrong thing.

I love my mum but I think she enabled his behaviour and now says he’s old and ill, but that doesn’t stop him being an arsehole does it?
It all came to a head last week, my mum said that us staying wasn’t working and could we try and get in house early (not possible). I can say hand on heart we have tried to be good guests, me and DH cooked for everyone each night, paid for all the groceries, tidied up after ourselves. I was upset then my mum was upset. And she then said no stay, I don’t want you to go. I think, reading between the lines, that my dad was the one that wanted us to leave and I honestly can’t fathom why.
My mum is caught in middle, I’ve barely spoken to my dad since then.
I’ve rarely asked my parents for anything in the last 25 years since I left home. And I
honestly can’t remember the last time he did anything for me or my dc’s. I would say I’ve always been a good daughter, always complied, never in trouble.
Sorry this is all such a jumble of words and not sure if it makes much sense.

You’re welcome here @Saythat

Sounds really miserable, but I think you’ve got the measure of what’s happening.

It’s typical though, very recognisable behaviour. It’s why most people on here would describe themselves as desperate to please.

I’m very sorry to hear your dad is ill, but I think this is a wake up call to you never to be beholden to them again. Your mum sounds as though she lives a miserable life but as you say she’s chosen it. I sincerely hope you can get through the next few days, I’d be out as much as possible if I were you.

Sadly I think their hospitality will be used against you in the future, people like your father use everything as a lever. Nothing is given freely.

@Fanthorpe thank you for your post.

Yes we have been out the house as much as possible.
It all just feels a bit overwhelming at the moment, just trying to work out my feelings about all this. My DH has been great, really supportive. We’ve had our ups and downs over the years, but he is really committed to me and our DC’s. I was absolutely bubbling with anger a few days ago but I’ve calmed down a bit.
I have an older sibling, who was estranged for about 10 years, and this was due to difficult relationship with my dad. Has been back in contact last few years, and they seem to bump along nicely. I felt that they were unreasonable at the time when it all blew up but suddenly I am seeing the situation from a totally different perspective. I need to talk to them about this once I am out of here.
I am intending to go NC/LC with my dad after this. Which won’t be difficult to be honest. My mum and I have always had an independent relationship really (until lockdown).

I feel bad for my mum, but she’s made her choice. I need to express that and try to understand from her why she didn’t back us more. It’s difficult to realise one of your parents is in an abusive relationship with your other parent.

Yes, it’s horrible, I think you feel so compelled to help them, but you really have to save yourself first. I hope you can build some sort of bridge with your sibling. Just concentrate on your own boundaries though, really. Decide exactly how you want things and don’t accept guilt or shame.

It’s a difficult going through all the realisations of how things have been. Memories just come out of the blue about events that just look different once you see how you’ve adapted to fit your narc family member.

Good advice from Tanya Byron in today’s Times 2 about CEN (childhood emotional neglect). Even if you’re getting your emotional needs met as an adult by loving relationships it can be usual to experience the pain and grief of your unmet childhood needs. She advises therapy unsurprisingly, and says it’s not worth the effort of discussing it with your parents as they won’t offer you anything useful. It’s just nice to read validating words.

@Saythat. I’m a recent poster on here but have found the help and support on this board really useful. It is a safe space.

I was in a similar position to you, although slightly different in that we stayed at my parents’ home abroad for just over 4 weeks. In that time , we were treated appallingly. My father is the enabler and just went with what my mother said. She was so abusive towards us all. The price paid for their ‘generosity’ is very high and detrimental to your wellbeing. You will get through the remaining time with the support of your husband but do look after yourself and your family. Whatever you do will not be good enough in their eyes but remember that you are not the guilty party. They are the issue - in your case, it’s your father but his behaviour is, sadly, enabled by your mother.

Not worth the effort of discussing it with your parents
I feel there is much truth in that phrase, in my case I can see that we are just too much at odds, their psychological makeup means they will never really 'get' me.
I feel that the answer may lie in finding a way to somehow re-parent yourself whilst protecting yourself from your actual parents.

They won't offer you anything useful
The minute, the second you challenge question or criticise them they are threatened and the hackles are up, this is an involuntary defence response, they have to protect their own egos and put you back down to restore the status quo where they are in power
(Tldr... you can't teach an old dog New tricks?)

Bumping this for Charlie.

SayThat

Your mother gets what she wants out of this relationship she has with her H and she threw you under the bus too. She has also failed you as a parent abjectly by failing to protect you from the excesses of her H's behaviour. What was her own childhood like; that often gives clues. Chances are her own parents acted the self same towards each other.

I do not feel that talking to them will do you any favours whatsoever, it will go very badly. Stay out of their house as often as possible and if it is possible to leave earlier then do so.

I started this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4003930-Unable-to-forgive-parents-for-historical-major-lie?

As usual, it ended up full of apologists for my narcissistic mother. Why are so many people unable to accept that not all mothers care, not all 'do their best' and most importantly, not all are forced to do what they do by 'controlling' men?

My mother is so far from being downtrodden it's funny. If anything, my father went along with what she wanted for a quiet life. She drove a lot of the disastrous major life decisions they made. They were both narcissist, both as bad as each other. Why is that so hard for some women to accept?

Hi princessmittens

Because their own mothers are not narcissists themselves. Some people on MN I feel have this mentality that because they do not see it in their own lives, its not actually there or that they do not see it as a problem. They cannot comprehend the dynamics nor the fact that other families do indeed behave as your parents have.

@AttilaTheMeerkat You are right. I also think it angers me because to me it represents the same lack of vision, same lack of understanding that other people can have different experiences, that are no less valid from your own, that my mother has always shown.

I think as well as the people who don’t understand are the people who are in denial about their own situation. They are so far into the dysfunction they can’t question it. I certainly was for a long time, I was throwing my scapegoated sibling to the wolves and excusing my narc parents because of their terrible childhoods. I couldn’t face the fact that I needed to withdraw because it meant I’d lose my family, when in fact what I got was a sense of peace and a LOT of self respect.