But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Namechange, I think his behaviour may come from a complete inability to empathize or see things through the eyes of others he only thinks about his own needs and if they're not met he becomes angry which further reduces his ability to empathize or be sympathetic to the point of view of other people.
Toddler behaviour like that just deserves to be laughed at surely?
Why don't you just start ignoring him, what's he gonna do, stop your pocket money?

I've thought about posting on these threads many times. My story is long, and feels like a diatribe of self pity.
I can't just go nc because we all work in the family business. Really struggling with it all at the moment.

Sadder it's a really important step that you have posted here today and you have been reading the threads even though you may feel that your situation is deeply hopeless and helpless right now. Take another brave step and tell your story when you are ready. Self pity is good - you can call it self compassion if that is more tolerable to you. It’s v important for you not to beat yourself up as well as no doubt you have had a deep kicking for decades.

You deserve compassion Sadder and I agree with SS...let's think of it as self compassion not self-pity.
I can see that working in a family business if your family are toxic and dysfunctional puts you
in a stressful and difficult situation
Try to remember that just telling your story so that you feel validated and acknowledged can give you strength

Hi everyone. I've been lurking on these threads for a long time and they have been so helpful in trying to navigate my relationship with my difficult parents.

We had reached a sort of low contact peace for the last few years- we live in another country so tend to visit only a few times a year so my parents can see the grandkids. There's been a lot of difficult moments, and I've been struggling with the impact of my upbringing and the grief of not having the family I wanted, but it has mostly been peaceful.

However, this week things erupted and I'm feeling like I'm back to square one. My husband went to visit with our kids but without me, since I'm a keyworker and couldn't travel. There's been a constant issue of my parents undermining our parenting but this time dh was trying to talk to our 8 year old about some bad behaviour (she was just sulking and being rude, nothing major) and my dad squared up to him calling him a bully, and then proceeded to attack our parenting. This was all in front of all three of our kids. Dh stayed calm, and made moves to leave, but my dad attempted to tell him that he wasn't leaving with our eldest daughter (who is not biologically my husbands, although he has been in our lives since I was pregnant).

He did leave, and now I'm on the receiving end of calls from my mum minimising the whole thing, and an email from my dad that basically says 'sorry, but here's all the reasons why you are wrong'.

Any advice on where to go from here and ideas for email replies? I'm so anxious about it all I can't think straight.

Thank you for your replies. I'm constantly the 'odd one out' and they just don't see it; so if I stand up for myself it's met with confusion and eye rolling because I'm being ridiculous.

I was abused as a child, violently and emotionally, and force fed certain foods until I vomited. It's left me unable to eat most healthy foods, which combined with pcos makes losing weight really difficult.
I'm always treated differently to my siblings who have been spoiled their entire lives. I moved out at the earliest opportunity and they hardly bothered with my eldest the first three years. They've never baby sat my kids, but now sibling's kids have come along they are constantly baby sat.
I'm still on reduced pay to help the business but struggling myself, if I say anything it's met with disgust that I want to pay my bills. If I leave it will be very bad for the business and long term financially for me and my children. There are advantages to the job in that if I'm unwell / kids unwell etc it's not an issue; and don't need a child minder in school holidays.
Sibling one lives with a parent and has never moved out and had their own bills, sibling two has married well so never has to worry.
DH sees them for what they are and is supportive. he's furloughed so on reduced wage, and will only be part time when he returns to work because of covid affecting his industry.
They've done so, so many shitty things but they seem to be oblivious. 🙁

UselessCat

I would not reply to your mother's e-mail because that will further open a door that should now be closed completely. Your mother is not and will never be on your side here; she has chosen to side instead with her husband here and for her own reasons. Neither of them can be at all relied upon either as parents or grandparents and she will continue to throw both you and your H under the bus.

But why did your DH at all think it was a good idea to visit your parents in the first place?. Surely he knows all too well what they are like and you certainly do. I presume he only went because he felt obligated and comes from an emotionally healthy family so thought it was a good idea. The current low level of contact you have is not working and should be further lowered to a point of zero.

None of you as a family should have anything to do with them going forward; yo get nothing positive from the relationship and its not your fault your parents they are like this. They were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they are not good grandparents to your children now; toxic parents do indeed make for being toxic as grandparents too. Your children need emotionally healthy role models and your parents clearly do not fit the bill. Keep yourselves well away from them.

You live in another country so you have physical distance; now you need to put in proper mental distance between you and they. Deal with any and all FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) you have through counselling (you will need to find someone who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

"There are advantages to the job in that if I'm unwell / kids unwell etc it's not an issue; and don't need a child minder in school holidays."

Bet they still moan about you behind your back if you go off sick. And there's likely no sick pay either and I would also think you're on minimum wage. If you leave the family firm it could well be the making of you and with any luck they would then turn on each other. You are paying a terrible price still for those "advantages" which are really anything but. These people do not bother with either you or your children whilst your siblings and their cousins remain more favoured.

You're still very much the abused scapegoat here within your family of origin and I would urge you to break away from them all. How can you be helped into leaving your abusers?. You should have and indeed need a life free of them and their abuses of you. What message too does it send your children because they are too seeing you as their mother being treated like shit by your parents and siblings?.

It is NOT your fault your family made you the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. This is ALL on them, the shameful abuse of you is all on them. People go to prison for far less.

Again, how can you be helped into leaving your abusers?. Leaving the family firm would be a start here.

I'm so anxious about it all I can't think straight
(((handhold)))
we get you!
As Attilla says, dont respond, take back the power
STONEWALL
treat them with the contempt they deserve, any approaches they make should be met with a (metaphorical) door slammed in their faces, you cannot let them get away with this.
Radio silence for a good long period
YOU Cat, you take all the time you need to calm down and get yourself together.
Let them sweat and stew while you recover

They've done so, so many shitty things but they seem to be oblivious
this is part of the 'suite' of techniques that they use to keep you subordinated, refusal to acknowledge you, treating you as if you dont matter.
There is a better life for you, the upsides are not worth the downsides.

Thank you Atilla and Heffalooomia

Thankfully I'm going out with some real life friends this evening (no lockdown here!), for some much needed gin and a pep talk.

I'm still debating replying to the email with a no nonsense reply, or just ignoring it. Thankfully we got a new kitten this week who has taken to sleeping on my pillow, and her cuddles have done me the world of good.

No, I got accused earlier of stealing something. I'd actually tried to help and visited to do hours of cleaning and located what they'd accused me of stealing. It would show from records I hadn't used it (electronic goods)

So phoned police and they're going to help me get the last of my property away from them. After that, that's it. This is the last tether. I'm safe now though just need to snip remaining tie cords.

I'm still up thinking about this amid storm Ellen. This is not ok and I want to get away from them for once and for all. Fed up of gaslighting and lies and upset.

I feel physically sick.

Letter from M today (written on my birthday - obviously on purpose).

Looks like she is prepared to go to court for access to the kids. She has requested mediation, which is the first step in the court proceedings.

I already know that a judge is likely to order some contact if it went all the way to court and then we'd have to pay her legal costs.

There isn't enough evidence of overt abuse for us to prevent the contact being awarded.

Part of me still wants to call her bluff because mediation is not expensive and court proceedings are, and she might not be keen to actually push through the court process.

But then I remember that she can hold a grudge for England and she will do whatever it takes to get her own way.

Once she has contact with the kids she will spend the rest of her life turning them against me.

Feel like running away.

Christmas

Hard as it is, ignore your mother's innane witterings. Do not give this letter of hers any more power here than it already has.

I believe the onus is very much on her to prove that her relationship with the grandchildren would be beneficial, she has to show evidence. Do not attend mediation with her under any circumstances!!!.

Re your comment:-
"I already know that a judge is likely to order some contact if it went all the way to court and then we'd have to pay her legal costs.

There isn't enough evidence of overt abuse for us to prevent the contact being awarded"

Do not blithely assume this is the case and would suggest you seek your own legal counsel. Knowledge here is power, take some control back yourself here. You as her daughter have stayed away from her for bloody good reason; toxic parents more often than not become toxic as grandparents too. If she is too toxic/batshit for YOU to deal with, it will be the same deal for your children too.

Christmas, everything that Atila said!
This can all be seen as a form of gaslighting, she treats you as if you are a powerless subordinate, but you are not, you are a sovereign adult
Do not engage do not take her seriously.
keep a detailed log of everything but don't give her any information, any response but she receives gives her information that can be used against you
radio silence, starve her of information
get proper advice so that you know exactly where you stand
she is just trying to scare you, trying to get control by knocking you off balance

She’s done a great job of calling your attention on the day she gave birth to you to her imagined omnipotence.

Give it the contempt it deserves.

If you really want to protect yourself by all means go and see a solicitor specialising in family issues, but do not go to mediation.

This is less about the end result than the ‘sport’ of getting you to bend to her will.

Happy Birthday for the 17th. We have this in common! 💐

Remember that in order for mediation to be possible both parties have to be willing to engage, you are not willing she is behaving as if you are willing, or as if you ought to be willing but this is gaslighting
You are not willing, therefore mediation cannot happen

Thank you everyone.

You are all so right. Thank you for all the support.

Hi, I have joined mumsnet specifically for this thread.

Both of my parents were toxic but I didnt realise and always had a weird codependent relationship until my mother passed away 5 years ago.

As a child I was left home alone in the holidays with my older brother who sexually abused me from the age of 9 til about 12 (he would have been 12 - 15). I was their ornament to show off to the world. Had to get the best grades, be the best, even told to talk in a posh accent! As a child my mum used to weigh me weekly at boots and tell me how fat I was and that she wasnt even as fat as me when she was 16. I've had an eating disorder since I was 9. I wanted to be a hairdresser but that was laughed at snd wsd told I was ridiculous so off to uni I went.

My wants/ feelings were growing up were dismissed or invalidated. I told my mum at age 23 that I felt suicidal and she told me not to be so stupid I had everything I could ever want! I told her age 17 that my boyfriend had cheated on me she said I shouldn't be with boys I should be studying.

I confided in my mum at age 27 what my brother had done. She told me he was a child too and that its what boys do! She said she'd been sexually assaulted as a kid too and it's common.

My parents never told me they love me. Not once. Never hugged or kissed me. it took me a long time as an adult to work out how this all works.

After the death of my mother, almost instantly my father met another woman which I pretended to be fine with for his sake as I didnt want him to be alone.

Pretty quickly this woman was everywhere, at every family gathering etc and it felt like she was being shoved down my throat.

Eventually I told my dad how I felt who responded that she'd been nothing but kind and he was baffled at the level of hatred I have for her.

After that I invited him over for a nice day, he spent the whole time lecturing me about politics (and every other topic that he finds interesting). He dismissed my alternative opinion, shouted about how wrong I was, dismissed my viewpoints, got angry that I didnt agree with him etc. That's when I woke up and smelt the coffee! Our relationship and conversations had always been like this! All about him, his views and dismissing everything about me.

I decided to set some boundaries so decided I would only see him with my husband present and wouldnt see him for longer than maybe an hour. I also stopped texting him and calling as our conversations made me a nervous wreck.

This was going ok but he's obviously took offense as he smugly told my kids I have an older brother (my older brother sexually abused me so I told them I'm an only child).
I feel this was his way of taking back control? He also text me out of the blue when I was on holiday to tell me that he was with my brother and they were having a great time. I'm not sure if my dad knows about the abuse. I had only told my mum and I'm not sure If she'd have ever said anything to him.

I've not spoken to him for a few weeks.Yet weirdly I feel like i should stay in touch but I'm not sure why. Is it obligation? Guilt? Habit? Wanting him to be happy with me?

You know the weird thing is that before the age of 7 I had the most wonderful relationship with him, we played, he read stories to me, we ate sweets, ride bikes together. It's almost like around that age a switch flicked and he became my dictator. I noticed he is amazing with my younger two children (both under 7) but not so much my 11 year old, he will lecture her a bit.

I get nervous near his birthday/ fathers day you know occasions like that where I know I'll have to get him a card. Lso my children's birthdays he will get them a present or whatnot so I'll have to converse with him. It's silly really I just hate having to get in touch, I find him incredibly intimidating.

I wanted to add that during lockdown I did some shopping for my dad and went and left it on his drive. I rang the bell and stepped back to leave a distance . He opened the front door and came charging out to my car, opened the back doors to let my kids out and then turned to me to say that this whole lockdown thing is nonsense by the government. My kids though this was great and went running I to grandads house. I was frozen in fear, just let it happen and felt completely violated. And that is the general pattern of our relationship.

Your parents were abusive to you when you were growing up and your surviving parent has not changed in all those years since.

What happened to you as a child was not your fault in any way; this is all on the perpetrators namely your father (who was also his late wife's enabler), your late mother who dismissed you out of hand and not least of all your abuser brother. I would urge you to contact NAPAC as they could well help you here napac.org.uk/

Your children need protecting from your dad. That man was not a good parent to you when you were growing up (and after the age of 7 you were just starting to properly develop opinions and a mind of your own so he did not like that one bit) and he is not now. He is doing to your eldest the same as what happened to you once you got past the age of 7. Toxic parents more often than not make out for being toxic as grandparents too and it is for that reason also your kids need to be kept away from your side of the family. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and you seem here to be the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. I think you are still very much mired in fear obligation and guilt and still want your dad's approval (not that he would ever give you that anyway).

Please also consider finding a BACP registered therapist you can work with and one at that who has no familial bias about keeping families together. You do not owe your family of origin anything; you just owe yourself and your own family unit now a life free from further abuse of you and in turn them because they are being manipulated too. It does your kids no favours either to keep on seeing you as their mother being so disrespected by their grandad.

You've also been conditioned well and proper here by them to put your own self and feelings dead last.

I presume your dad's new partner is scarily similar to your late mother as well. You do not owe her anything either.

How did your children react when they learnt that you were infact not an only child?.

Thank you. At 40 I am the happiest I have ever been since dramataically lowering contact. Air though I was ok but you are right I am still in fear of obligation and racked with guilt. I also want his approval even though I never get it. I will return to counselling. My counsellor was amazing and helped me put my original boundaries into place (she recommended going nc but I insisted I'd still like a little). I stopped counselling for financial reasons and because I thought I was ok. But the feelings of obligation and guilt are creeping back so I need to work through that. In February I did go non contact and lasted 2 weeks before waking up to find £10k in my bank account - he had given me and my brother a 'gift' each. So then I started feeling obliged again.