But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
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December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

For those of you who have not gone NC and still have your parents in your lives, what coping mechanisms/tools have helped you with this?

Also, has anyone managed to have a successful relationship with the healthy parent whilst having boundaries etc with the other parent? I’m finding this so hard because you don’t get one without the other, and my Dad can be a bit of an enabler at times to keep the peace.

I truly understand that my Mothers behaviour (narc like tendencies) is due to her upbringing and conditioning and I could feel compassion and empathy for her. But I feel angry, bitter, twisted and resentful. I see her on a weekly basis out of obligation and don’t know how to manage the relationship, especially when I want a really close one with my Dad?

@Query45 - you want honesty?

You can't go NC with your mother and be close to your father, when they live in the same household.

He is an enabler, and he has chosen to stay with her.

Sorry to say this, but I'm finding that I need to accept that peripheral relationships are going downhill because I'm NC with my mother. It's worth it, but it's hard. x

Thank you @Rosegoldlilly1. Yes, I found Christmas very hard last year, not because we ever spent it with my F, but there wld usually have been contact, exchange of gifts, etc.

Give me strength!!!
I've namechamged because anyone who knows me irl will instantly recognise my set up but I have had lots of great advice on this board over the last three years and hoping for more help please.
Not parent-related this time, my aunt (father's sister - I'm nc with father) and also my neighbour/landlady. We've always had a close relationship with her but she's always been prone to toddler-like behaviour at times.
We're currently in the middle of birthday season and this is often a time when the behaviour deteriorates - can't think of a reason why and this year, for many reasons, I've been trying to ignore the little digs but they keep coming and I'm close to snapping.
This round of snarky comments started 2 weeks ago and as far as I'm aware, nothing has happened to upset her. However, 2 days ago it was ds' 18th. She was given a rundown of the day's itinerary (to avoid the upset of previous birthdays where she claimed to know nothing about arrangements - not true) but chose not to join us in the shared garden and stayed inside her own house. The rest of the family came in to my house while ds was in the garden with his friends. He came in briefly so I seized the opportunity to quickly sing happy birthday - he was in the house for literally 2 minutes. She heard the singing, appeared at my back door, shouted about not being included in singing happy birthday, disappeared back into her house and has barely spoken to me since. I'm so fed up of having to constantly make sure any family arrangements are made so she doesn't take offence because if I don't, I get it in the neck when she feels she's been hard done by. Do I just need to try harder not to react or should I ask her what the problem is?
I feel so fed up and trapped.

@Bottl - IGNORE the behaviour. She knew what was going on, she could have come over, she chose not to.... SO THAT SHE COULD MAKE A SCENE AND MAKE SOMEONE ELSE'S DAY ALL ABOUT HER.

And if it were me, I'd be making plans to move, the behaviour won't improve.

ARGH ARGH ARGH. Why do people get to you so much?!

My birthday is on Monday and I'm feeling really disheartened. It will be a lovely day, but it does bring home the reality of my parents.

DB is continuing to be a flying monkey... his texts are clearly not entirely written by him. Having been ignored when he mentioned M, he has now asked to come and VISIT.

FFS he has absolutely no interest in me whatsoever and is barely in touch. He goes to visit M a few weeks ago, and suddenly he is all up in my business.

He wants to pass on information to M about what we are up to (we are mid house/school and possibly country move).

I've just made an excuse, but it makes me want to hit things. I'm not a toy to be bloody messed with!

Sigh, I'm hoping that next birthday things are a bit quieter on the Western front.

Thanks for the reply, Christmas. I thought ignoring was probably the best solution. I just wish I could be less bothered by her behaviour.
I was supposed to buy this house from her and she changed her mind after I'd set the wheels in motion. I couldn't afford anything else in this area and would have to close my business if I moved out of the area so am in a bit of a catch 22. I do have a long term plan but it will be 12 months before that happens so I just need to grit my teeth and concentrate on not reacting to the behaviour.

Happy birthday for Monday. It is disheartening when people only get in touch because they're fishing for information for someone else. Feels horrid.

It’s really helpful to do a quick audit of the people in your life who have been “difficult”
or “dangerous” or “manipulative” in your life and be crystal clear that they will continue to behave this way - this is who they are. It’s not “if” something similar will happen again it’s “when”......

You are then prepared to spot it as a “there you go again” “there it is” ...... so it’s no shock - but then you have to decide is this tolerable - do I want to endure this each and every Xmas, 3 times a year, every time we talk etc. Because that is what will happen.

If you don’t want to experience that again - take yourself out of punching distance - slowly detach - LC - grey rock - or just go
NC and never look back.

So if you get repeated bad behaviour from your known “difficult” person you have to accept responsibility each and every time that you get hurt after you put yourself in the position.

@Bottl I completely get where you are coming from, my M does this very same behaviour. At the last celebration for my DD I asked her to come at a particular time, she said she would come earlier. I asked her not to and to come at the time I asked. Guess what? She didn’t show at all, causing DD to ask relentlessly where she was and other guests to wonder the same. I got in touch with her as DD wanted her there and she gave a big performance about how she felt unwanted and was offended by “being given an appointment”. Everything is about her and how it makes her feel, other people’s feelings or plans aren’t even considered. This escalated (out of earshot) into a huge argument, I got to the point I just had enough of this behaviour. She has played manipulative games with me my whole life but this is the first time she has done it where DD is concerned and I made it clear to her it would be the last. I will not accept her behaving this way and stomping her feet to get what she wants.

Things have been exceptionally frosty since, she does not like being told and me reacting in this was is unusual as I usually try to make the best of it and coax and cajole to stop the situation escalating but I just had enough of her behaving like a petulant child. It’s funny how I couldn’t have stood up for myself in this way but the second I saw by DD look disappointed that she didn’t turn up the gloves where off.

I’m still coming out of the FOG but I am getting there slowly, I am quite LC with her now, though DD still asks about her. When she does, I message M to see if she is available for a visit. She is always “busy” when I ask (which she never is, she doesn’t have many friends to speak off so it’s just a game) but it suits me as I don’t want to see her, but tick the box that I’ve asked for my DD. I am happy for her to be around her as little as possible. I got sucked in when I was pregnant, M started being nice and making an effort, I thought she was changing and would be a good grandparent. The veil slipped after a few years, too much effort to pretend she cared.

I should have started backing off years ago, but being the scapegoat I always wanted her somehow to be interested in me, god knows why. DB is the golden child, even he is NC with her, yet he still remains the golden child. She will mention him in a way that I feel she is trying to hurt me, still play that same game. I say nothing and find it strange. I am in contact with him so why she thinks mentioning him or what she would do for him would bother me I don’t know. Old habits I suppose.

@Christmas1935 happy birthday for Monday! You’ve done the right thing to put him off

@Sssloou has nailed it. It’s not “if” it’s “when!

@Sssloou - great post

@Gredd - much of your post sounds familiar and could be about one or more members of my family

It's such a common theme isn't it ...when they treat you badly you somehow can't process it, can't defend yourself
the second they start on one of your kids everything is crystal clear and you know you will not tolerate this anymore.
It was the same for me, they always overreach, always overplay the hand
And down comes the chopper

I absolutely agree with what you wrote @Sssloou that the only route out of this situation that we find ourselves in is to decide for ourselves what our boundaries are, that is the part only we are responsible for.

What worries me though is that lots of people who come to this thread have been taking responsibility for the abuse they have been subject to for all of their lives, and may be deeply enmeshed in family situations that are difficult to leave.

As you say narcissists rarely change, but it is THEIR CHOICE, they know what they’re doing but they choose to do it anyway.

Abuse is always the responsibility of the abuser never the victim. I think most people on here have tried very hard to make things right and hopefully eventually (painfully) will choose to disengage, but it’s a very hard choice and what comes after is not straightforward.

Your future does lie with you and what you decide and that’s a very exciting idea if you’ve lived try to please others all your life.

I’m really struggling to understand how I feel about my M. She didn’t come to visit me on my birthday recently. It was a big birthday, so I felt it more this year. Bought me a bottle of Prosecco a few days before. She knows I’ve quit alcohol, but she thought I might like a glass on my birthday. 🙄 Not sure what to make of that really. She always tried to sabotage my efforts to quit smoking many years ago.
I have had a very rocky relationship with her. Many years of NC. She told me she wished I’d died at birth. When my dad died she told me my brother couldn’t live with her he would have to go into care. Things like that absolutely killed a part of me inside. Recently I have reported child sex abuse. Won’t go into the details about it on here, but M admitted that she saw me kissing my abuser. I’m also pretty sure she slept with him herself at some point. I really dislike the woman. To the point the words ‘I love you’ choke in my throat. I also hate being touched by her.
Sorry about the long post. I just felt the need to get this out of my head this morning.

the second they start on one of your kids everything is crystal clear and you know you will not tolerate this anymore.

Abaolutely, also the same with me and the reason I'm NC.

I wish we could all just take a step back and LAUGH at our parents (or other badily behaved relatives), but it is so hard as the 'child' to do that, we have been conditioned by them to feel fear, and pacify to avoid any escalation. I don't think my F has ever been told that his behaviour is just unacceptable so STOP IT, and that needed to come from his own mother first but I don't believe it did. That doesn't excuse it, but I do sometimes think he's 'got away with it' for all of his life so he can't see that he's ever in the wrong.

I’m sorry to all of you who are on this thread because of an abusive parent or parents . It really is the pits and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

I am in a very dark place just now mentally and don’t know how much more sh*t I can take. I feel like I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place with my parents, if you can call them that. My mother is a narcissist and an absolute nightmare. Her mental health issues are; paranoia (everyone is out to get her; people avoid her; etc) and she is passive aggressive, miserable and whines all the time. However these mental health issues are undiagnosed and not even accepted by herself and my willing enabler father who worships the ground she walks on and makes excuse after excuse for her behaviour. So of course she says and does whatever she likes to me as she always as him beside her backing her up no matter what.

I have gone nc twice and last year when they huffed with me for two months she ostracised me and played the victim card as she has done all her life, and told twisted lies about what really happened (and my dad despite witnessing the whole thing sided with her). Last year she comes storming out living room accusing me of having mental health issues (the usual drill when she’s not got her way), told me ‘what a daughter I’ve been to her’ and then flatly denied saying it and twisted it that I stormed out the house because I got annoyed at something . She takes ownership for nothing, everything is 100% my fault, and the snide digs about ‘how nobody apologised for anything any more’, etc are never ending. I get told I have mental health problems in front of my own kids, even though she would start a fight in an empty house.

I know her comment about ‘what a daughter I’ve been’ stems from the fact that my dads driving days are coming to an end and I don’t drive. She expected me to rush out and get a car to ferry her around the way my dad has all her life. I have severe anxiety and hate driving, when I said I wasn’t going to but would help in other ways she went mental, pram was on ground and the toys were everywhere. Full guilt trip about ‘I’m just going to leave them destitiute’ (their house is between two steep hills with. I shop or public transport in close proximity).

They are elderly and play on it like you wouldn’t believe, ‘taking to your elderly mother like that, you should be ashamed of yourself’ (after she has verbally annihilated me). I daren’t show any emotion, ‘I’m too sensitive’, I overreact, etc.

She has fallen out with the neighbours on both sides which tells its own story, one of them is a neighbour dispute spanning 30 years. I grew up in it with her provoking it and being obsessed. She seems to get a kick out of fighting with people. They’ve recently been having a few parties and all I hear is a hours worth of whining about it, they’ve made my life hell that family (as well as her provocation of it) yet all i still hear to this day is about that family, like she’s possessed with it. If I dare try tell her I’m not interested she goes in a huff.

My kids worship them and this is also why it’s hard to go nc.

Thank you for reading, it’s 5am and needed to get it off my chest. I don’t know where to turn as nobody understands.

I haven't posted on this thread before but it's extremely difficult trying to 'divorce' your immediate family - it's in its infancy but I get daily phone calls and accusations and I stand back and say but what about me?

I have a counsellor who is really good and feel much happier about the situation. Next of kin is a huge issue but I've decided on a close relative, and friend. So I can fill in my passport details now.

I know how horrendously difficult this must be for a lot of you so empathise. It's very hard detaching! But not done in a day, it's something you have to work towards.

Frankly, I could put down the postman as my next of kin if I wanted to. It isn't their business anymore.

Tiredout
We get you.
My kids worship them and this is why it's also hard to go NC
So hear this and know it to be true...this is all a deliberate strategy, they make a point of buttering up and flattering the children because they know so that this will draw you in so that they can keep on (metaphorically) slapping you in the face.
It is not out of love for the children it is out of a desire to manipulate and control you.
ON BEING A NON DRIVER...
I have found this very useful, my reasons for not driving are many, I'm a bit of a hippie, I hate cars I like to walk everywhere.
It's a great way to get out of things, just ignore all the hints and focus on the many and varied reasonS that you don't want to drive, you don't feel safe, your eyes aren't that good anymore, you can't afford it.... anything and everything.
Just keep on refusing, play for time, they are elderly, playing for time gives you a big advantage 😁
Dig your heels in and wait it out, soon you will be free 🥳

I have posted under a different username on here before, but I can't remember what it was! I've been following the various threads over the years and gained an awful lot of support and guidance surrounding dysfunctional families.
To give a brief overview, I'm 2.5 years no contact with entire FOO. Narc mum, enabling Dad, Narc GC sister. My resilience has been tested on numerous occasions over the last couple of years. Death of grandparent, near death of Narc mother, birth of my child, pandemic. None of which has tempted me to break no contact. I am happy that my decision to remain NC is the right one and I am better off without their toxic behaviour and bullying. I am also determined to keep my children away from their dysfunction.
However, I feel I am being really tested right now. 2 weeks ago I got the devastating news my oldest family friend had died suddenly at only 40 years old. I grew up with him and our families are best friends. Due to my NC with my FOO I felt the need to block all of this family last year as they all became unwitting flying monkeys. The last contact I had with my friend was him telling me I had to get back in contact with my family, he didn't care what had gone on in the past and some other rather unsavoury opinions about my character. He died believing I am a crap person, even though our friendship had been untarnished up until this point. This hurts so much. I loved him like a brother, and his parents provided me with a lot of support and protection growing up where my parents lacked. They obviously can't see this though, mum is the covert sort of narcissist so has everyone eating out of the palm of her hand.
I have reached out to my friends family and shown my support, I drove to their home 2 days after I found out to see them which was actually terrifying for me, to my great relief they weren't home so I was able to leave flowers without the huge attack to my mental health. I have been messaging his mum and siblings.
But now I am in a predicament. I know I am going to come face to face with my parents at the funeral. I don't want to cause a scene, yet I cannot bring myself to look at my mum. I want to attend to pay my respects to my friend.
I have also just heard GC narc sister is pregnant. Surprisingly I'm happy for her, even though I can't have anything to do with her due to her relentless bullying towards me my entire life. I am sad my children won't know their cousin.
She never wanted children, I actually believe narc mum has pressured her into having a baby to replace my children in her life.
I am also secretly hoping she wakes up and sees our parents for what they really are when she becomes a mother herself? Although I won't get my hopes up on that one.
So I am due to come face to face with an awful lot of people I have had to break away from, in a highly emotionally charged setting, and I am still fragile and trying to build myself up from my turbulent childhood.
Any words of advice on how to handle this situation?

I get daily phone calls
You don't have to answer, I find it quite useful to respond to phone calls a few hours later by email ...gradually distance, gradually freeze them out

Luella
I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your best friend and even worse that he had started to believe their lies 💐
They will know that you are very vulnerable and this is a great opportunity for them to get back in control.
Is there any way that you could avoid going to the funeral, could you hold a private ceremony to remember and honour your friend?
(I apologise if this is unthinkable for you)

@Heffalooomia
Thank you for your response. I don't even know yet if I will be able to go due to the restriction in numbers at the moment. However, he really was a good friend and I don't think I could not go if his family say I am welcome. They are good people and will be hurting so much. I want to be there for them. They are just under the spell of my evil mum.
We also have a lot of mutual friends that don't know the situation regarding my family. I don't think I could cope with a second wave of people thinking I'm a shit person if I don't go to the funeral. Especially as these people are sending their condolences to me at the moment. Imagine if I choose not to go, my mum gets hold of these well meaning friends and uses my absence as "proof" of my evil and uncaring ways.
I know we have to learn to not care what other people think of us. But I am really struggling with having to deal with his death on my own as it is, without having additional people believing my families narrative about me. I even said to a friend the other day I feel guilty about how much this is hurting me, as I have been programmed to believe I am selfish if I show an emotion.

I feel really sorry for his parents. They will not want a show down at their son’s funeral - which you will not be able to control.

I would tell the family that you are attending but make an excuse on the morning. Would that be tolerable for you!

I think this is a respectful thing to do. You could pay your respects another time or way.

@Heffalooomia

I get daily phone calls You don't have to answer, I find it quite useful to respond to phone calls a few hours later by email ...gradually distance, gradually freeze them out

Most of the time I don't! I think detaching takes patience, it's detangling knots.

It feels good not letting them rewrite history or using me as a scapegoat anymore.

I'll take time later to read other people's stories

@Sssloou thank you for your response.
Maybe you are right. Maybe I do need to just stand back for this for fear of creating drama when there really is no place for it.
Heartbreaking.

Hi everyone. Just checking in again, I have posted on here before but I like to name change quite often to stop myself being too outing.

I wondered if anyone could provide insight into the behaviour of my (most likely) narcissistic father. He does this thing where he expects family members to be able to read his mind and anticipate his needs and if we don't he gets really angry. Yesterday he was in his garage tinkering around with his car and he misplaced a tool he needed. He had been using it earlier so it was likely to be near by and easy to find but he has no patience to look properly. The rest of the family was in the house so completely out of hearing range of him. He suddenly comes storming into the house shouting at us all saying he had been shouting for help for ages as he needed urgent help to find the tool he had lost. He then starts complaining about everyone in the family being lazy, useless, unhelpful, etc. Then he starts victimising himself saying that nobody ever helps him, he was out in the garage all alone in the cold trying to find it for ages, he's not had anything to eat or drink all afternoon, etc.

He does this kind of thing all the time that it is predictable but it still hurts. It makes me feel like a horrible, lazy, unhelpful, ungrateful daughter when I am the opposite and too much of a people pleaser. He also does this where he shouts for help in a way that makes it sound like an emergency so I/we quickly go to see what it is and it is usually something minor like he left his phone in his office so could we go and get it for him...