But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Christmas1935 Thank you for your advice. I'm inclined to agree. My DB is very damaged and I don't want to be responsible for making it worse for him.

Mittens I am so sorry that you and your sister suffered such abuse.

I agree with PP advice and also I would consider that you will not get resolution or healing from your DM either. She has made her choices, lived her long life - you really don’t owe her much emotionally right now.

If her behaviour upsets, drains, controls you - disconnect from her in your head. Front and centre should be 100% focus on your healing so that you can be the best parents for your DC - don’t allow your DM to sap an ounce of this - you need it all. No one should be derailing your efforts or distracting you from this.

Christmas - yes that is the correct response. Anything else is a reaction - fuel - oxygen. Even if you said No - she would love to then ride over that barrier.

Silence. Distance. Disconnect. Dignity.

Grieve for that little child part of you that is still a little disappointed that you will not get your birthday acknowledged by your mother. That’s OK. It will pass. Look to the lovely emotionally healthy radiant people in your life who will wipe out that disappointment.

And a big Happy B Day from a random anonymous stranger on the internet.

@Christmas1935 she’s asked whether she can send money for her.

Just reflect on that a bit. Why not just quietly send it? Why make it a question? I’d suggest it’s so that she can create a point of connection with you, involving your brother as well. She’s batted the ball to you, and it’s a very carefully aimed one. By making this contact about your child it’s making you doubt yourself.
To carry on the analogy just watch the ball go past you, you’re not playing this game.

She might still send your DD money - again just ignore - zero response or acknowledgement.

The fun bit starts when she keeps hassling / nagging your DB to keep going back to you to get a reaction - when the focus / energy / fight will finally shift to being solely between them.

@Sssloou @Fanthorpe

You are entirely right that its the 'little child' crying out 'this may not be the family I want but its all the family I have'

I also get really caught up in the way A with DM's enablement portrays me as a 'nuisance' and 'the one with the problem' among the extendeds. I find it an absolute wind up, it properly gets to me, like A is determined to have me on the outside looking in.

@Christmas1935 Thanks for name changing out of solidarity for me! It's awful. Its my birthday soon too and A has already orchestrated a scenario whereby I cant see DM on birthday unless I also see them, basically done me out of the day.

@Mittens030869 No, I wouldn't it won't help anything xx

A is determined to have me on the outside looking in.

I would recommend that YOU look to put yourself on the outside looking AWAY.

They’re gaslighting, subjugating, dismissive, patronising and controlling ways are hijacking your life.

Get professional support to drop the rope. Find your worth inside yourself and with balanced people - don’t subject yourself to the emotional roller of this toxic system.

One of the big insights about my upbringing was that I was deferring to people all the time, I’d learned to think that others knew more than me about things. After all I was always getting things wrong at home, trying to learn the rules. I thought I was just showing faith and trust in people and being respectful.
When people let me down or proved to be not what I thought I just looked inwards and put it down to something I’d done, maybe said the wrong thing.

As I got older and a bit wiser I started to see things a bit more clearly, after a lot of work and reflection I’m a lot more circumspect. Please don’t trust your mother and brothers view, they only have their own needs in mind. Reject their opinions, they’re worse than worthless, they’re damaging you WildUnknown.

I'm not naive I have known the score for a long time and I have had a very very long and successful period of next to no contact with A. It lasted 5 years before A even noticed. At the time A was 90 minutes away from DM and I was 45. Now we all live in the same damn suburb and I just don't know how to maintain VLC when we both live so close to DM. It used to be so easy to have a relationship with DM and never see A. Now it will be next to impossible and A will ensure it. Particularly as their move is clearly largely motivated by the desire to take liberties with ad hoc childcare. ;I dont use our DM for childcare.)

It’s good that you’re clear about your boundaries, I think you’re going to have to come up with a strategy. Maybe a sort of blank politeness, a bland non-commital nothing sort of response? Keep them out of your mind space as much as you can, I know how much effort that will take though, it’s not easy.

I’m really sorry they’re in your space, that’s maddening.

Why do you feel the need to invest in a RS with a parent who throws you crumbs? Can you see that she is the orchestrator of all of this - but has managed to sit back and enjoy watching you get emotionally triggered and slug it out. Your DM sounds manipulative and destructive to me at least.

As with life nothing is always black and white.

I do love DM, and believe she loves me, though there have been very difficult times

My DM is a very damaged, needy person who has survived abuse and who parented the only way that worked for her.

Her own manipulations are often embarrassingly childish. She is however exceptionally naive/gullible and is really easily fooled by A's manipulations often entirely believing A is sincere when all it is is puppet master behaviour. If that makes sense? I do want some sort of RS with her. I would gladly never see A again.

I described DM to Sibling B as "limited" and B agreed entirely.

In lots of ways DMs limitations are as a consequence of the life she has had, frustrating as they are, her limited ability to "be an adult" if you like is genuinely not her fault.

Does that make sense?

No it doesn’t really. It sounds like you are minimising, justifying and defending her behaviour. She is a sentient grown adult and highly manipulative. Go back over your posts and pull out your descriptions of your DM. Seems like she has got you exactly where she wants you - divide and conquer - in conflict with your sibling so that you are distracted by her behaviour.

Do you treat other people this way? Doubt it then why does she?

She is never going to give you the basic kindness and respect you deserve and you will likely carry on draining your emotional energy in a futile attempt to get her attention.

I'm really not, I'm saying its not black and white. It is a challenging relationship and I don't feel that I do "try and get her attention" I just behave as a daughter would, I have really, really improved 'boundary setting' with her by increasingly closing off information about aspects of my life, and my true opinions because honesty doesnt wash if it conflicts with what she wants to believe.

Yes, she is like this with other people.

Toxic relationships with own siblings. Few friends.

There is a strong chance of eventual NC depending on how certain situations pan out long term and LC is currently in effect really due to the enmeshment she has with A

She also has no real idea of how people perceive her, and doesn't grasp I have a lot of support in this area as her actions have often spoken for her.

I am trying to untangle myself from the codependency created from years of being the GC myself. I have had therapy for this.

Like anything it is a work in progress, and thus, I posted for support.

It isn't fear, obligation or guilt I feel, it's pity.

B is far more "sorted" in their arms length approach as they have never really been the GC for any really prolonged period. Though their advice is sound, being an expat, their approach is accepted and unchallenged due to sheer distance logistics preventing their regular physical presence in DMs life.

You don’t need to defend your approach Wild, we’re all doing the best we can, in our individual situations. I hope you feel suppported here.

This particular thread is a place of kindness and no judgement.

Thanks @Fanthorpe

Loving your mother and believing you are loved and then suddenly realising in your 30s that this love is and always was conditional and based upon an invisible set of shifting rules, some cruel, it's tough, and it's a process. The last thing I need is to be told I am doing/not doing/argue x or y, because if anything that replicates the actual issues themselves of "not conforming" and feeling forced to justify why I won't....

The golden child role is a role also not without price either and many such adult children never realise that at all. Much is written about scapegoats but the golden child realising that all is not as good as it seems for them either is a very painful realisation.

Your mother had a choice when it came to you and she chose to repeat the same old that was done to her. You feel pity for her but that is because you have two qualities she totally lacks; empathy and insight. She has never given you that consideration and she would regard your pity with contempt.

This link may be helpful WildUnknown

medium.com/@OwnYourReality/scapegoat-golden-child-how-and-why-narcissists-assign-these-roles-and-not-just-in-the-family-f78fe568dfa7

From that article :

Basically, the game involves two or more people who get pitted against each other and usually they don’t even realize what’s happening. They’re just aware of the conflict between each other and there’s always this conflict. Maybe they can’t figure out what’s going on or where the conflict is coming from. Or maybe it’s very clearly this parent or this other person. Essentially the narcissist does this because they want you to turn on each other while having the loyalty of you both.
The narcissist wants the loyalty of everybody and the narcissist wants everybody fighting amongst themselves. So the narcissist will fabricate lies, gossip, they’ll reveal private information about you, they will manufacture enemies, they’ll get you to tell on each other, they’ll get you to say something bad about each other by probing one person and kind of setting it up in this way to get you to agree with them and nobody then the person says, “oh guess what so-and-so said about you…?”

This. In a fucking nutshell.

And thank you, Attila

I haven't been on for a long time (I have a habit of letting social media take up a lot of my time so have to be strict and limit myself!) but I'm having a few days of feeling low, thinking about my D who I'm NC with and have been for about a year. It might be the timing, I think also because its his birthday in a couple of weeks and I won't be sending a card. Anyway, I just wanted to say Hi and to those of you who are having struggles with nightmare parents, I hope you find some strength and believe in yourselves, and for those of us who have made that break, its okay still to have bad days where you can't quite make sense of it all... or you can make perfect sense of it, you know you've made the right decision, but you just feel so very, very sad about it. I realised today that my D was never, ever there for me and damaged me from when I was very little by emotionally rejecting me, so I have no reason at all to want to have a RS with him, just nothing there to go back to. A reconciliation would suggest that there were better times, but there weren't... just times when I hoped it would get better, that he'd be a better D or a good GD, but he never was.

Yes @FreshStart01 I am NC with my D and have been for close to two decades. Easily done as my parents divorced, but exactly like you there never was an RS so there isn't one to resume.

I don't even feel sadness as I feel like I grieved for the D I wished I had long ago.

I find word of mouth stories of his latest escapade quite amusing in the knowledge that he's not my problem and I am otherwise indifferent.

A much different scenario from DM as I have always known he didn't love me not even "in his way"

Thanks @WildUnknown. I have no word of mouth stories, no link to him other than through my severely learning disabled DB (parents also divorced). Perhaps that's why sometimes I find myself wondering if I've been too harsh, because I have no way of knowing if he's doing ok or suffering with the loss of what RS we did have - then I talk to DH and he reminds me of all the subtle (or not so) put-me-downs over the years. He may love me 'in his own way' but that's really not good enough unfortunately. It took a long time for me to realise that I didn't HAVE TO have a RS with him that left me stressed and depressed, just because he was my F. I love him, because he's my F, but I don't have to see him or speak to him ever again, and that is my choice.

@feshstart01 I'm sorry you're feeling this way sending you hugs. I always find special occasions trigger me off too because you're always shown how a birthday/Christmas is suppose to be celebrated with family. Not all of us get that picture perfect day.

Popped on here tonight to kind of vent really. My dad came out with some lovely sexist , myoginistic words earlier. He said to me that me doing a something was a "woman's job" I told him how sexist it was and he said no it's not, it's true. That's why I'm here helping. Er no your helping because it's a 2 person job and I didn't have anyone else to ask. Really angered me today. Years ago I would have let it go but I'm finally coming out of the FOG and seeing what he's really like!!

Also my mum was talking about Katie Hopkins today. Saying how much she loved her. I cannot stand that woman she's a bully and for my mum to support all her fatist, racist, cruel comments on people just show what kind of person she is too.

Anyone have this internal conflict of they're my parents but you're not nice people.