But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Rosegold yes, of course. It makes him feel good to help you and listen to you, it’s just that his need for control becomes too much so he puts you back into your place.

I’m sorry you’re feeling so upset, it’s really awful, he chose his words well. I think it’s one of Attila's descriptions - come closer so I can hurt you some more

newname if you can get back to counselling it would be useful, you could just work on this one issue (how do I decide to conclude my relationship with my mother) it doesn’t have to be open ended.

Sometimes we just need to give ourselves the permission to do what we know we need to do.

@Mummyoply I agree with @Fanthorpe on this one but I also understand the difficulty in going NC. I’m struggling to despite my parents’ behaviour over the years.

My only advice is to protect your child. However wonderful your parents might be as grandparents, their true behaviour will eventually show itself towards your DS. My parents were fantastic with my children when they were younger but, as they grew older and their personalities developed, things changed. Our children are too precious to be exposed to that level of toxic behaviour.

@Fanthorpe
Your sister is stepping into your mothers shoes. Narc parents will work hard to divide and conquer their children, it sounds like your sister tried to do the same to you and your children.

Yes! Exactly that! But I couldn’t allow her to poison their minds. My sister would shower them with gifts. But I eventually saw that it was her way of trying to win them over and buy their affection just as my mother did.

They had a spell where things weren’t great and I defended my sister against my mother’s vitriol but that backfired. I probably should have stayed out of it but I always feel I have to defend wrongdoing

I am a long time lurker here. My DP's sibling is the golden child. We have low contact with in-laws for many many reasons. In-laws have had vague interest in my DD over the years which we have been fine with. Now... golden child is expecting a baby and guess what???

Yeah I bet you all guessed right, we have not heard a thing from in-laws for a long time. Its like all interest in DD has been dropped. Any contact has suddenly been weird from them.

While neither myself or DP are the least bit surprised by this, how do we explain the sudden lack of contact to DD from her grandparents? Its not bloody fair, its unsurprising but unfair on DD :(

@Tallpaulwho as predictable as that was, it doesn’t stop it being hurtful though

i don’t think there’s a pain-free solution Tall, if she’s little she might not think about them too much. I wouldn’t facilitate contact if they do get in touch though, as you can see toxic people are toxic to everyone. Concentrate on the people in her life who value her. I’m sorry for your husband, he’s had it all his life, has he looked at the Out of The Fog website, it’s very helpful.

Hi everyone

Sorry I've not been here much, my life has been blissfully free of M and flying monkeys.

Although I'm slightly concerned I'm being pulled into a false sense of security by the complete silence.

My birthday and my DD's birthday (the favoured grandchild) soon, so we'll see if we receive contact.

Does anyone have experience of what happens to the golden child when they are the only one left?

I've always been in the career role, and DB has basically floated in and it as he pleases. I wonder how that will go down now I've left my role?

Hi @Ballet1992, my mother has alienated both her daughters ten years ago which included me her favourite scapegoat and was left with only golden child son. Fast forward to recently and she has now alienated him probably due to being needy, demanding and engulfing like she was with me. Interestingly golden child has tried to make contact with me which I found really disturbing. I came on her for advice. I decided to not return contact as he threw me under the bus when it suited him and I don't expect him to realistically have changed although he and my sil are claiming to have seen the light on my mother.

At the end of the day it's all about the toxic parent. What they want or need so golden child can get used up and thrown away like anyone else.

@Dacquoise sounds like you did the right thing there. They’ll just want to make their lives easier by reeling you back in

Out of interest does anyone have experience of a borderline waif? The criteria fits my mother to a tee and has been suggested by my therapist. Lifelong martyr and 'little girl' who has seduced a lot of men to save her. Third husband who 'saved' her from her second is very wealthy. Had children very, very young and unable to really take care of them although likes the world to see her as the doting mother. (Didn't turn up at court when her youngest got adopted, went on holiday instead but that's another story) Can turn to rage if she's challenged too much. Big issues with abandonment although abandoned her children for her second husband and displays no remorse or guilt about her actions.

Thanks @AreweatChristmasyet. I was tempted though. When someone suddenly 'gets it' when they've spent most of the their life in denial it's hard to ignore but the advice on her made me think.

Hello - can I join? Been a member of MN (under another name) for around 10 years, but never quite had the confidence to post here.
My children are grown now, but this week my mother has forgotten my elder daughter’s birthday and is making it all about her. I think I need to start writing things down.
Will start with a story my mother told me very proudly. Apparently, as a little girl, I wanted my hair to grow. She said she could not be bothered with the washing and brushing so she cut it off when I was asleep. She was quite proud of the ‘clever’ way she had dealt with my unreasonable demand.
Now I don’t remember this and it is only a small example of how I was treated- but I feel such sadness thinking of that little girl waking up with hair that didn’t grow,

Oh my god Mythologies, that's awful. Not just that you didn't get hair that grew but the gaslighting, the lack of empathy and the sheer lack of care on your mother's part. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

Sorry I've been absent for a while (although it's probably been a blessed relief for everyone). I've got some proper trauma therapy at last and it's hard work but hopefully eventually worthwhile. On the other hand I am back in touch with my dad and it's not really helping things. My therapist actually helped me identify that he was saying some things which were manipulative - double binds etc - and this evening he sent me a couple of messages then one demanding I call him, I rang and asked what the problem was, as he knows how much I hate phones so something urgent must have happened and he said "you just weren't answering my texts". This is about an hour and a half after the first message! He also keeps telling me that my mum wants to see me, encouraging me to stay at his house, etc. On the other hand I'm looking at ways to move out of where I'm living as I don't feel safe here, all while grappling with enormous guilt and doubts that I'm doing the right thing.
It's such a weird feeling having an experienced professional say things to me like "your feelings are unbearable" or "you are highly disturbed/traumatised" or just anything that validates feelings and experiences I've learned to belittle and dismiss a long time ago. It's like reading "The Body Keeps the Score" (thanks for the recommendation) in that it feels so complicated to finally see it in print, and I almost wonder if I'm deluding myself that it applies to me.
Sorry for the ramble, as usual!

Hi Myth welcome, glad you’ve joined but sorry you’re here, it’s a hard thing facing up to it all.

Can I suggest what strikes me when I read what she said to you? That she’s concocted it.

I think it feels true to her, and it might have some basis in fact, maybe she snipped a lock of hair when you were little, maybe not.

I think she’s saying she had complete control over you, that she can thwart you. I think it’s a power trip.

Ask her what she did with the hair. See if she has a credible answer.

If she did it, and is telling you proudly then there’s every reason for you to not spend any more time listening to her. She’s cruel.

Thank you Cecile.
I have always understood that my mother was abusive. I just never thought I could do anything about it.
I am glad you are getting therapy although I am not a believer, I do know how much good therapy can help

Hi Cecile you know you don’t need to apologise. Great news on the therapist, challenging on the parent front - keep as grey rock/LC as you can. Keep on working with your feelings, I know it’s so hard. 💐

Hello Fan
Although my mother has a very distant relationship with the truth, unfortunately, this rings true. All photos of me are with very short hair and she told it as a “poor me what I had to cope with story“ Which is how she excuses the beatings - which are not brought up nearly as often these days - as beating children has gone out of fashion.

@Dacquoise I think on the last thread someone talked about the NPD mother being like a toddler playing a game of ‘I’ll be the mummy and you be the baby’.

That personality type you’re describing would be a pretty catastrophic parent, damaging for both. Avoidant, emotionally labile and without boundaries. I’m glad you’ve got a good therapist, hopefully you’ll be working on nurturing yourself. Are you still in touch? Are your siblings?

Myth I’m very sorry for what happened to you, the not remembering could be because you’ve locked it away. It’s hard to think about painful things. She sounds appalling. Was your dad around? Any brothers or sisters?

Mythologies I haven’t found it has helped so far, but I think I haven’t had the right type. Apparently just talking about trauma can actually do more harm than good, but I’ve found someone with a lot of experience with it and actually just having some validation and explanation of how trauma affects you physiologically is really helpful.

I’m sorry therapy hasn’t helped so far Cecile.
Yes being believed is essential to any conversation about abuse

Hi @Fanthorpe, I have been lucky enough to be able to dip in and out of therapy for the last ten years and it's been life changing for me. I am now the person I was meant to be, not a vessel for my mother's self pity. However I am still processing and recovering from the damage she did to me. I find researching her condition very helpful as it helps me to understand why she did and does the nasty things she does. I have spent most of my life bewildered by her behaviour and frustrated by the denial of the people around her.

As for family, I am no longer in contact with any of them. It is far safer for me to be away from them. My mother has systematically destroyed any potential for relationships with her manipulation. Divide and conquer rules. She is estranged from her sister (borderline witch) but still has a pity fest pact with her brother. My youngest sister was adopted when she bolted with her second husband, which has led to her estrangement from me and my brother. Me and my brother are estranged, again as a result of my mother bolting with husband number three. The family are highly enmeshed. All roads lead to my mother. Shiver.

My therapist thinks she has borderline personality disorder of the quiet type. Narcissistic but the ultimate victim of her own life choices. No one can help her but all relationships are maneuvered to get people running around after her trying to save her. It's actually fascinating if you aren't involved with her the amount of power she wields. I am wondering if anyone has experienced the same?

There’s a reddit thread Dacqoise, are you on there? raisedbyborderlines