But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello, I have been on here in a while. Things were OK, I spent less time with my parents and less time letting them into my life. My boundaries have been stronger and all has been OK. Lockdown did help with this I guess.
A couple of things have happened that have angered me recently. The main one happened last night and I've come to realise my dad is misogynistic for various comments.
Last night I didn't have my son so I popped round for a takeaway with them. My dad mentioned they were going to go out tonight with friends but raining so couldn't. I said oh yea would be nice to go out and have a drink again. He laughed and said with who? You don't have any friends. My mum gasped and I said that's not very nice, I do thanks. And he carried on and said well you don't do you Billy no mates still laughing. I said why are you being horrible for. He replied with the phrase I hate the most "I'm only joking". I'm kicking myself now for not saying something but I just let it drop.
But I just thought I would never ever say that to my DS. How mean a comment is that. And yea I don't have many friends and it does upset me but what a cruel comment to your own daughter and then to shrug it off with the only joking phrase. Which it clearly was not.
He made a comment the other week about a woman driver. He said oh course she's driving like that she's a stupid woman!
He talks to my mum like rubbish, belittles her. Saying that she speaks to him badly too. But I recall when I was younger up the dinner table he would make my mum cry being he would laugh and make fun of her. Try get my and my Dsis involved too.
Its confusing because he can really help out with stuff I need doing and be a listener but now and then he is awful. It's like if i step out of my box he doesn't like it. Woman are unequal in his mind.

Hi summerrose that’s horrible but you’ve explained exactly why he did it. You’ve been seeing them less, holding stronger boundaries, then you went round and were probably having a nice time, so he’s punishing you, reminding you how ‘important’ he is.

That’s how narcs are, they can’t resist it. His words were chosen carefully but they’re irrelevant, you’re breaking away, keep going. See him for the damaged person he is, who you cannot help. You’re mother, despite her gasp, is his enabler, you can’t help her either.

Please disregard his words.

summerrose

What fanthorpe wrote.

Your mother has chosen to stay with this man for her own reasons; she gets what she wants out of her relationship with him. She is really his enabler and secondary abuser here and she has failed you as a parent too. What do you know about their childhoods if anything; this often gives clues.

Thank you @LadyAnanas.

How are you doing today @LittleHelpFromMySplitEnds?

Thank you fanthorpe and attilla
It's a strange one but they are both abusers and both enablers of each other. Neither one of them is more innocent than the other.
However since time has gone on my mum has mellowed and her anger is no longer taken out on me or my Dsis. I sometimes wonder if the anger came from anxiety because she knew my Dad would go mental if we damaged or ruined something by accident.
Yes both had troubled childhoods. Father had abusive dad who hit my nan and was a drunk and then abandoned my dad and he never spoke to him again.
Mum has abusive mum and had enabler dad. Pretty sure she has a narc sister who controls the whole family. It's still ongoing.

Its confusing because he can really help out with stuff I need doing and be a listener but now and then he is awful
if he was always awful you'd know who he is and keep your guard up, he doesnt want that, he wants a nice soft easy target who trusts him somewhat, an attack from someone you trust is far more damaging and humiliating, it's a bigger win for him

Being on here has made me read a bit more about narcissistic behaviour. It’s also given me the courage to tell my DH about some of my mother’s behaviour in the past. When I graduated I was living away from home. On graduation day I had no idea whether my parents would attend. Up until the day of my graduation ceremony. I was in tears on the phone with them in the morning. She was still really angry with me for having left home. I arranged to meet them on a tube platform and they did turn up but they kept me waiting and were very late. At the ceremony she barely spoke to me and once it was done I took my photos and we hung around after for a short while and then made our way back. Leaving me she told me that I was shit and my degree was shit. All I remember from that day is going home and crying the whole evening. What should have been a happy day for me was all about the hurt and pain I’d caused her.

As I was telling my husband this, I kept thinking I would never behave like that towards my children. Small successes: a grade 1 exam pass is rewarded with a treat of their choice. They know that their successes are celebrated.

Last year, when I visited my parents, in one of her fits of anger (I’d put my clothes in the machine in a 1hr cycle as opposed to a 40 minute cycle ) she told me that it didn’t matter whether my children could play instruments or were clever - it meant nothing because they had no manners. When I later confronted her about it, she called me a liar. Another time (same visit last year) accused me of not allowing her and my DF to have time alone with my children but, again, I reminded her of what she had said and said about them and she confirmed that “It’s true. They have no manners at all. You’ve brought them up to be dirty like you!”. My mother is very house proud and I definitely don’t meet her standards and, whilst my children can be a bit cheeky (my DS mainly towards me) - and very untidy - they are really polite and respectful. It’s unlikely my children will see my parents again but I’d never subject them to that level of hatred.

@LadyAnanas
I'm horrified, your parents are a pair of complete and utter bastards, treat them with the contempt they deserve don't give them the time of day, don't let them steal one second more of your time or your energy!
Congratulations on achieving your degree, you're a winner and a fine example for your children to follow
⭐🏆⭐

I’m guessing you’ve read about narcissistic rage Lady. I can feel it through your description. I can also feel your misery, and the impossible situation she put you in, having to put on a brave face to everyone else while being humiliated by her. You couldn’t do anything to stop what she did, it’s all on her and your dad.

I bet you she told everyone about your graduation though.

@Ulterego. Thanks for your supportive words. My parents don’t affect me as much now, as my priority is to look after my children.

They do get so little of my time already although frequently remind me of the fact that my sister calls them everyday. I actually feel really sorry for them for being the way they are but also for not changing or seeing what their behaviour has done. They have denied themselves access to my children. Not me. It’s pathetic really.

As my sister (Golden child) became more distant, she would take my children out on her own. I’d let her as I thought things would get better between us. They didn’t and she told me she was going NC with me but still wanted to be in contact with my children (she was sending text messages to my son, her godson). I drew the line there and told her that couldn’t happen. Of course my parents waded in and told me I needed to alllow her to see/speak my children (despite the fact she wasn’t speaking to me and wouldn’t tell them, let alone me, why). There is absolutely no way I would allow any of them to poison my children’s minds.

Hi, I'm new.

I started a thread about the breakdown of the relationship with my parents since my DS was born 3 years ago. I received lots of support and advice and was directed to this thread.

I must say that reading this thread has been a revelation, although I don't feel that my experience is as 'bad' as most. Reading the advice on here is really helpful and the lack of judgement is like a breath of fresh air.

Has anyone been able to rebuild their relationship with parents as an adult? Or have you accepted that they are the way they are and use self preservation to cope? I'm not considering NC but want to 'manage' our relationship better and have started to set boundaries which is something new for me.

@Fanthorpe. I’ve read quite a bit about NPD but not about narcissistic rage so will read a bit more. It’s all helping me understand them - and confirming that it wasn’t me who was at fault.

Yes! People tell me she talks about me with some pride. Less so now though. As she gets older it’s more about my sister and how she has helped them with the interior design of their house and selecting gadgets to make their lives easier, buys them gifts and how often she visits them - they leave out the bit that it’s paid for by them. In fairness they paid for me and my family to visit them last year but I paid it back by being their punchbag for the 4 weeks I was there. They’ve already told me several times that they wasted their money on me (I barely spent any time with them - a complete fabrication of their imaginations) and I’m ungrateful. That’s why I know I won’t visit them again soon, as it’s too expensive (financially) and I would never put myself in that situation emotionally again.

@Ulterego. Thank you for your congrats . It still remains, to this day, one of my proudest achievements: working full time and studying at uni part time in the evenings was very tough but I did it with no help from them.

I've posted on this thread under a variety of usernames and have found it helpful. I'm really at a loss with how to deal with this current situation. Everyone I know in RL has wonderful parental relationships!

NC with mum. Mum physically, mentally and emotionally abusive and neglectful to all her children, not one of us is in contact with her. She's done some truly despicable things - she's undoubtedly a narcissist (I know it's a popular armchair diagnosis but I feel I cannot overstate it)

Anyhow, NC for several years; she tries to hoover me back in periodically, the latest is a terminal diagnosis - the problem is this isn't the first terminal diagnosis she's had and the others all proved to be lies. However this time there are no dramatic flying monkeys trying to get us to make up - her whole family have cut ties with her. She's quietly contacted me to apologise for everything then one other sibling to let them know of her diagnosis.
Another sibling has heard on the grapevine that this isn't a lie though the severity (life limiting vs imminently terminal) is up for debate.

While I do not want a relationship with her I equally don't know how I feel about her dying without contacting her. I think I feel nothing toward her anymore so part of me wants to reach out to tell her that I don't want a relationship to resume but her olive branch is accepted, I bear her no ill-will and that I hope what remains of her time is peaceful and as pain-free as possible.
The other part of me has niggling doubts about her diagnosis and wonders if she's just changed her tactics up to get a response (which I feel guilty about too).

To be completely truthful I worry that if she dies I'll somehow be consumed by guilt that I didn't give her any peace when she'd asked for it. Is this just the FOG working it's way back though? Selfishly, I can't face her death unleashing things I've fought hard to accept I can't change and have them pull me back under.

I did have counselling fairly recently so I could go back there but honestly there's just so much that would need to be dredged up which won't change the actual outcome

Is it a bad idea to contact her neutrally? Should I just let sleeping dogs lie given her possibly dying isn't suddenly going to repair our relationship? I was thinking of creating a throwaway email account which could easily be disabled?

I'm in a bit of a tizz and any opinions would be welcome.

Ah, your sister is stepping into your mothers shoes. Narc parents will work hard to divide and conquer their children, it sounds like your sister tried to do the same to you and your children.

If it’s any consolation your sister won’t be having an easy time of it, she’ll be madly adapting to everything. Narcs are only kind for a short while, they can’t help using their tactics, even on the golden child.

Has anyone been able to rebuild their relationship with parents as an adult
If I could travel back in time 20 years and speak to my mum as she was then I could totally sort it, then again.... nope, I don't want to heal her I want to wipe the floor with her
But back then I was so intimidated by her that she only had to issue one of her sharp retorts and I was unable to do anything to defend myself, it's only now that I have seen though it all the layers and untangled the cat's cradle ...but they are far too old and too far gone and I can't be arsed anyway, I just want to get on with my life and put them behind me.
If you feel it might work it certainly sounds like a good idea to set boundaries, try and manage them @Mummyoply
my instincts have always been to get as far away from my parents as possible
I want rid

@newnamewhuuu
I'm trying to think about what I would do if I was in the same situation in respect to my mother, part of me would want to witness her dying breath so that I could know that creature no longer walks the earth.
I wonder if giving yourself a certain time window to make a decision would help you to know the way forward?

I would not contact her at all; what would it achieve apart from reopening up wounds?. She has never apologised nor has ever accepted any responsibility for her actions. You are no contact for good reason and that decision was likely never made without much heartbreak and soul searching on your part beforehand.

Also she has not contacted you directly; its all been second hand information from another sibling.

A response from you is what your mother wants; to such disordered of thinking people like this a response is the reward because they know they have you then. Poor health too does not make such people like your mother behave any better and some people do use health concerns or "tests" to actually further exert control and manipulate over their target.

You do not know the full truth re her health now and it sounds like you are still very much in the G part of FOG. Ultimately you will have to grieve for the relationship with your mother you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

You may find these articles helpful too:-
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4626634/The-emotions-feel-mother-loathed-dies.html

emergingfrombroken.com/what-if-my-mother-or-father-dies-before-we-resolve-our-relationship/

Mummyoply I don’t know how is the honest answer. Your parents are unlikely to change. How good are you at keeping boundaries with them?

Your child is very young, do they have a good relationship with them? The baby and young child phase can be a bit deceiving if they’ve chosen the ‘happy families/doting granny role. It changes as the children get older and start to express their personalities. They’ll behave in the same way to your children as they did to you, in all likelihood.

Basically what you really want in your heart, I think, is to have a relationship with your parents where they stop hurting you. You’re looking for a sort of shield to stop their poor behaviour affecting you, while still having a mum and dad.

I’m afraid it doesn’t work like that, at least not according to anyone I’ve spoken to or read. Their need is to control the relationship so it’s impossible for you to hold that control instead, it just increases the stakes and the damage.

I’d love to encourage you, believe me I’ve thought and discussed with professionals every possibility.

The damage is the relationship, the relationship is the damage.

Newname

You do not mention your dad at all here; is he in your life at all these days?.

Mummyoply

This was my reply to you on your other recent thread:-
"Do look at and consider also posting on the current "Well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages.

It is really not possible to have a relationship with people as disordered of thinking as your parents are. Your mother is a narcissist and your dad is her all too willing enabler. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and need such a person to help them.

They will never ask about or after your DH or your son. All my MIL does these days is ask my H questions, my son and I are really of no concern to her.

I hope you ditch this current counsellor who advised you to ask your mother for a hug!. Words fail me. BTW if that person is a member of a recognised body like BACP I would report them; that person needs more training. You need to find someone who has no familial bias despite the presence of mistreatment. These people too are like shoes; you need to find someone who fits in with your approach".

You have to let go of all and any hope that they will now somehow become better people; they will not. You may well find setting boundaries very difficult also because they've never really encouraged you to have any; your mother sees you as an extension of her.

Your job now is to protect your child from such malign influences; I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep your child away from these people. They were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not fundamentally altered.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat yes my mum and dad are still together and I see them equally. Although at the moment it's just FaceTime because of the COVID-19 pandemic

@funthorpe reading about you saying narc rage. Think that's what my dad did. Feel like he's triggered me and been feeling pretty shit and teary the past few days.

Can someone be a narc or have traits but hide it quite well? I see a few things from my dad but wouldn't say hes an outright full blown narc

@AttilaTheMeerkat parents divorced many years ago, I'm LC with dad. He enabled a lot of the abuse for an easy life - I.e. mum made me homeless as a teen and followed me screaming abuse as I walked to my dad's (covered in scratches and blood where she'd attacked me) when I got there she told him if he let me in she'd never have anything to do with him again and he closed the door in my face and left me there with her trying to pull the hair out of my head.

I'll take a look at the articles - think you're right I'm still in the G bit of fog. Since going NC I've had kids and that seems to have intensified the guilt - I'd be devastated if my kids went NC with me, admittedly I'd never dream of saying and doing the things my mother did so I hope it won't happen...

I started to draft a note on my phone to her (without the intention of sending) just to see if it helps me to process things, the first thing I wrote was "your poor health is not going to repair our relationship" I know it doesn't justify reintegration into my life. My very analytical side can't understand why I'm so conflicted it's like the child in me is still desperate to please her. It's a confusing thing to fight. Maybe I do need to bite the bullet and go back to counselling?