But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

yellow your Humpty Dumpty quote has been sitting with me since you posted it, it’s so menacing and appropriate. I keep thinking of examples and remembering my feelings at the time. Thank you for thinking of it.

Sometimes I used to have to leave card shops as I started to feel too weepy to go up to the counter. Sounds pathetic and I felt pathetic. But there was so much tied up in it, and I was so aware of how a simple task had been turned into a minefield.

Hi @DDIJ certainly is in my experience, they’re obsessed with it. I think it’s another highly enjoyable way to be judgemental. Opining about other people’s weight in front of you reminds you that they’re judging you in the same way and that they may decide to make those remarks about you at any point.
It’s soul destroying.

What Fanthorpe wrote and this link explains more too:-

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/understanding-narcissism/201805/why-is-your-narcissistic-mother-obsessed-your-weight

Oh crikey Attila that’s a tough read, I know I’ve internalised a lot of that behaviour myself.

Hi @DDIJ - yes absolutely. It's a way of criticising and looking down on people.

Also, hair seems to be another common feature that gets commented on all the time. Too long, too short, too blonde, not blonde enough, too dry, too greasy, too straight, too curly, tied up, left down.

I guess like weight hair is something that narcs perceive people to have control over (you can't really do much about your eye colour or nose except for plastic surgery) and therefore it's open season for them to offer their opinion on it.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - that was a really interesting read, thank you.

One of the reasons it took me forever to realise my mother was a narc was that she didn't seem to take care of her appearance at all. (I always assumed narcs were obsessed with how they looked)

But the One-Mindedness explains that one. My mother thought all women should be pure, unsexual creatures, saving themselves for their husbands so her idea of 'beauty standards' was very different from most people.

Women who took care of themselves or wore makeup or, gasp a skirt above their knee, were clearly sluts and asking for all kinds of trouble.

@DDIJ - I understand. I hated having my hair washed or brushed as it was such a brutal experience. And I too had to have it kept nice and short - it was hideous.

You'll find that lots of us have experienced the 'little things'. To other people it can be hard to explain as by themselves the little things can seem just that but those little things add up and up.

They are not trivial and it's quite normal to get upset over them. Keep reading and posting. You'll find lots of support and people who will listen and understand how you're feeling.

@DDIJ you’ve been made to think that all those painful feelings are just little things because you’ve been told to. Narcs can’t face their children’s difficult or painful experiences so they deny them or punish them to make them go away. They don’t go away though you just learn how to hide them or escape from them.

We all know. It’s ok.

Interesting comments about hair and weight. My mother (I actually don’t call her that IRL as she doesn’t warrant that title) couldn’t talk about my weight as my sister has mostly been very overweight.

However, she does this thing whereby if you look really dressed up and have made an effort (dressed up to go out) she will say nothing. No acknowledgement no nothing. She can’t bring herself to say: you look nice. I find it amusing actually, as I feel I don’t need her validation in that area. I feel quite happy in my skin whereas she never bothered with hair/make up and would always say women who wore red nail varnish were prostitutes.

I feel as though I’m harbouring all these terrible thoughts and experiences but I don’t think I am really. They don’t plague me but some to that someone says will trigger that thought - that’s happening here a lot. I’m finding it very cathartic to be able to talk about it in a safe forum where I won’t be viewed as crazy. Because what normal, sane person behaves like that??

Maybe not harbouring them Lady, you’ve been given them to carry and now you’ve found a place to put them down.

@DDIJ. What a terrible experience. My DD hates having her hair washed and I’m sure she’ll bring it up when she’s older (though I think I’m just as traumatised by the experience as her!!). However, all jokes aside, what a horrendous thing to say as a child about their hair. And the fact she comments about your hair now in such a nasty way is unacceptable. There is surely an element of jealousy there.

Thank you @Fanthorpe. I’ve read through these pages so much over the past few months and I’m finally glad I took the plunge and am now able to put them down here. It feels very safe.

The new Mary Trump book about the Trump family is really a good description of a dysfunctional family. It hit close to home for me. The demand for family loyalty from people who otherwise didn't care about you. The constant judgment and criticism for living your own life. The scapegoat child, the favorite child, the financial abuse. The rigid and lifeless family holidays. Pitting children against each other. Controlling with money. The lack of love, joy, humor. I highly recommend it if you suffered in your family of origin - especially if there is family money/wealth involved. It helped clarify things that happened to me. It's very much a But we took you to Stately Homes thing.

@Fanthorpe - that's such a good way of putting things. When I started posting here I was really worried that it was triggering all sorts of buried memories which was making things worse.

And it was triggering things, but it was actually making things better. Because every time I was able to acknowledge something and understand that it was a bad thing that had happened to me it became unburied and then it wasn't a part of me anymore. Before I think I just had so much rubbish hidden inside of me that it was poisoning everything I did.

@OldWomanSaysThis Oh I might have a look at that - thank you.

There was an article in the Mail (I know!) about a woman raised by a narcissistic mother. It was interesting but her mother wasn't really the covert type - she liked the big parties and being showered with gifts etc - I think that was also in relation to a book the daughter had written.

@yellowlemon I’ve been wondering, too, whether talking about it is making it better but it is exactly getting rid of the rubbish, putting it down here, as @Fanthorpe nicely put it and hopefully being able to let go of it. There are things I’ve mentioned here that I’ve never said to anyone before.

Oh goodness, I’ve just read that article. My parents read that paper but my DM would never feel any recognition with that woman, the one in the article is different in that she sounded quite fixed and remote, definitely grandiose narcissism. Mine was dangerous because of the swings between states, you never really knew what you’d get, which is the vulnerable version of the disorder.

Thanks for that info yellow

@Fanthorpe I've often thought it's quite ironic that they want everyone in the world to be a mirror image of themselves and yet if they were to come across the exact mirror they wouldn't recognise themselves in it.

Always quick to judge everyone else's style of parenting but can't see what was wrong with theirs.

Yes, I agree. I was pleased that the author recognised that most NPD goes undiagnosed, I get upset by people elsewhere on MN who say it’s rare and hardly any women have it. Men get diagnosed as they often commit crimes, usually violent but women not so much. My mother’s gp probably just has her labelled as difficult and a bit eccentric, why would they think anything else?

She ripped the brush through my hair
I remember those daily beatings by hairbrush 🙄
Fucking evil bitch

I want to post here but am just saying hello right now. I started to post a month or two ago but lost the nerve thinking no one cares about my story. Yet I feel the need to just say it to people who understand me to know it is not trivial, useless, dumb, etc.

Thank you.

@LittleHelpFromMySplitEnds. Just a hello back.

It takes a lot of courage to come on here and share your story. IRL I only had one friend I talked to about my family. I thought I sounded ridiculous talking about it. Small things they did or said sound trivial and talking about it would make me feel as though the problem was with me. The fact they told me I was the issue further reinforced my insecurities. I tend to think that the counselling I had last year made little difference. I know I’m wrong, however, as my counsellor taught me that it’s okay to talk about what went on and that I was the victim, not the wrongdoer. I’ve been cautious though, and have only spoken to people who I trust IRL. They had no idea but they only know a little of what I’ve been through. Narcissistic parents make it about themselves so much that you feel disloyal if you even say one thing about them. Even if it’s the truth. And when you do, they’ll discredit you. I’ve called out my parents several times but they’ve accused me of being a liar and ungrateful.

When I found stately homes I couldn’t believe what I was reading. So much I could relate to - of my childhood and adult experiences with my parents.

Post when you’re ready. I’ve felt reassured and overwhelmed by the responses to my story.