But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@LadyAnanas - you'll soon see that although your mother thinks she's very special and unique there are many others just like her.

You absolutely have to protect your children. Sounds really trivial but I still have major issues about normal bodily functions because of my parents' attitude towards them. On the one hand they had a crazy obsession with them and on the other they were something to be completely ashamed about.

You have done so well despite your parents and not because of them. And you will continue to do well and thrive with them out of your life. Someone said once on this thread these sort of people are parents with nothing to offer. As others have said they won't change, but you can.

And yes, my sister is very damaged by my parents but she doesn't know. Because it was in her interests for her to remain tied to them as they gave her so much support. She has never had to think for herself or worry about anything. Seeing how she is with her own children I think they've probably raised another covert narcissist and although I feel sad for what the future may have in store for her kids there is nothing I can do.

I mean - he supported me in my decision to see a therapist (posted too soon)..

• I can’t stand their attitude, as they believe they’re superior to everyone.

Listening to your daughter and acting as a consequence shows how different you are to them, you should be intensely proud of that, she knows now that you value her. I think the relationship you have with your other relatives has been crucial, it’s shown you that you’re loved and valued. In most abusive families the rest of the family are kept at a distance and divisions are encouraged.

@yellowlemon. Yes. My sister is damaged like yours. My sister doesn’t have children and has said she won’t and doesn’t want them. When I was pregnancy the second time around, she announced it on FB. I had to tell her to take it down. When my DD was born, she posted the first photo - of herself on FB holding my daughter and announcing her birth! Not the name though, as we hadn’t decided that yet. I thought it was best not to say anything and thought she just wasn’t thinking and did it with good intentions. A few years later, she posted on Instagram that it was “my little girl’s birthday’. When I questioned her about it, she deleted it immediately and said I had issues about my children. Her partner, who was there at the time (and who I’d staunchly defended to my mother), said “what? Just because she came out your vagina, she’s only your daughter?” When I brought this to my sister’s attention months later, she said she wasn’t going to control what her partner said. I would never allow my DH to say something like that to her. He wouldn’t anyway. He has too much respect for me.
She is my son’s godmother and, when she told me she no longer wanted to speak to or see me, I told her it was inappropriate for her to be in contact with my son. Up until that point, she was ignoring my messages and, sometimes, deleting them without reading them, but had started messaging my son. He told me and asked me what he should do. I said he could reply if he wanted, which he did. She was angry that I wouldn’t allow her to contact my children. Did she think she could bypass my and have access to them?

You need radiators in your life LadyA, not drains.

Their behaviour is not just wrong and unacceptable; its also abusive. Your parents (and they are really not worthy of being called that at all) will remain a complete drain on you. Your parents were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they not surprisingly are crap examples to your children as well. Do not subject your children to them at all further. You are their scapegoat here and as such your H and children will also be scapegoats too; they will also all be less favoured. Money and wills are certainly used by narcissists to further control and manipulate with and it is for that reason as well I would also withdraw completely.

It may well be that low contact will not work either in the long run and I would certainly dial back all your contact with them; that includes your dad (her willing enabler and secondary abuser, women like your mother always need such a man to help them). I would also use caller ID and would also consider blocking your mother's calls going forward.

Keep your children well away from your parents and your sister; particularly she because she will try and poison your kids minds against you. She will cause them much emotional harm if you at all let her in. She should not be speaking to your children and your children should not be at all encouraged to contact her in any way. Not all relatives are safe to be around let alone nice and kind and some of them are actively abusive.

@Fanthorpe. Yes. Divisions are encouraged and I know that’s what also angers my mother. Prior to me visiting them, she forewarned her relatives that I wouldn’t have time to visit them, as I’d be too busy at their home. I made time for all of them and they appreciated that. They see her as someone who sees herself as being above them, but they were glad to see I was the same person and still had time for them. I honestly cringe when she talks about money. She had a modest life here and wasn’t wealthy - they had a small terraced house in a pretty shoddy area of London, but the way she talks about her financial status to her (poorer) relatives is embarrassing. I can see it makes them uncomfortable. When she has bought things for family members, she accuses them of being ungrateful for not appreciating what she’s done for them. The fact that they like me despite me not buying their affection makes her seethe with anger.

I think it’s a vital thing to teach our children about boundaries. They take their cues from us around family members.
I bitterly regret not standing up for one of my nephews on an occasion when my father was just dreadful toward him, I can picture it so vividly and my silence. My nephews cut them off now so I guess they reaped what they showed but I still have that guilt.

@AtillaTheMeerkat. There’s no need for me to block my mother’s calls. She never calls me. She sees it as my duty, as her daughter, to call her. She does call on birthdays though. And sends money to the children during the holidays. My DS recently said “she thinks she can buy us with her money but doesn’t really like us at all and treats you badly”. They see right through it. Money is definitely her control mechanism.

Oh yes, money is a useful tool for narcissists to wield over their targets. Do not let any and all residual fear, obligation and guilt you have further make you call your mother now.

I would encourage your children not to accept any money from her going forward and if it is sent then I would donate it to a charity of your kids choice. Your children are perceptive and overall have the measure of her.

You do not owe your parents or sister anything now, let alone a relationship. It is also not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

@Fanthorpe. I agree. Boundaries are essential. I refuse to, allow my children to be drawn into their web and know it’s my duty to protect them. My mother has said she wants to give the, both money - but more to my son. My husband and I have said that if she does that, we’d split the money fairly. I’m not surprised your nephew withdrew from your parents. I asked my son if he wanted to contact his godmother and he said no. He said he didn’t like the way they behaved and was too loyal to me. Bless him, he often drives me mad (Typical teenager) but he melted my heart saying that.

I don’t regret supporting sister when she came out. I’d do it again. At the same time, she really showed her true colours by turning against me.

I have to say you sound so lovely, and your kids and husband so empathetic. What a loss to your parents and sister. Keep moving forward!

Thank you for your support. It’s really helping me.

@Fanthorpe. Thank you. That’s a really lovely comment. Unfortunately, years of abuse has resulted in me being quite hard on myself and very self-critical.

A few years later, she posted on Instagram that it was “my little girl’s birthday’. When I questioned her about it, she deleted it immediately and said I had issues about my children

My mother used to do something similar: in talking to my kids (when they were babies, we're not in contact now) she used to refer to herself as "mummy" and me as "granny". She kept doing it however many times I reminded her about it. (If a narcissist wants to do something, they'll do it, or they'll have the mother of all tantrums, they never respect other people's boundaries).

I think you're doing absolutely the right thing in reducing contact with your mother and I can sympathise with the experience of being influenced by that toxic environment to act differently. That was, in a nutshell, why I broke contact with my mother. I think it's very difficult to do healthy parenting around a personality disordered person: not only are you under a great deal of extra stress from dealing with them, you also might not have access to the coping mechanisms you might have used with them (I was very "grey rock" with my mother, but you can't do that around kids), you don't have the time or emotional energy to do all the sort of management of their mood that you probably did automatically when you were younger, and the vulnerability of the kids, and of you, being your authentic self with your kids, gives them lots of opportunity to make attacks on you that really hurt.

@toomuchtooold

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

@toomuchtooold. Thank you for sharing that. As I read it, I couldn’t help thinking what a strange thing for your mother to say. What would possess someone to do or say that? But I guess my sister did the s asks... incomprehensible.. For me, it was the gaslighting afterwards by her and her partner. I’m not surprised you went NC with your mother. You’re right about not having the time and energy to deal with them. I’ve come to the realisation that I need to prioritise my children above her needs and her demands to be top dog. It’s so sad and actually quite pathetic. I’ve come to the realisation that whatever I do will never be good enough.
There’s a lot of good advice on here. I’m keeping my contact to every couple of weeks to maintain contact with my father. He is a classic enabler though and often jumps in when she’s accusing me of being awful. She even said she’d pay for me to see a psychiatrist! Writing that I wonder why I want to maintain any contact! They’re abroad (thankfully), so that forces a natural distance between us.

whatever I do will not be good enough

I’ve been thinking about this a bit and I’m not sure it’s a helpful way of framing it, as it implies you are failing to meet their standard. The problem is there is no standard because it changes all the time, there’s always something that they feel is wrong that you’re responsible for, but you never know until later when it’s too late, all you know is that they were disappointed.

Does that make any sense? They encouraged you to think you were not good enough, but you don’t have to see it that way?

@Fanthorpe It makes complete sense. I guess I should really say is that it will never be good enough for them. And you’re completely right that the goalposts are constantly changing.
I often feel as though I’m talking to people from a parallel universe when I speak to them. It’s so far removed from any logic! As many of you have said, narcissists will do/say what they want as it suits whatever narrative is in their head.

A case in point to support what you say... years ago, on my mother’s birthday, I ordered her a bouquet of flowers to be delivered. I was living with them then. The bouquet didn’t arrive until much later in the day. Meanwhile, I was accused of being selfish, thoughtless, only spending money on myself, tight and, when a record came on the radio about loneliness, she blamed me for causing her to feel lonely and upset on what should have been her special day. It was my fault. When the flowers did arrive she said it was a pointless gift, as they’d die anyway. My father chipped in by saying the flowers in the garden were better than the poor effort I’d made. I’ve never bought her flowers for her birthday since.

Cut back to last week. Her birthday. We video called her. She was bursting to tell me that my sister and her partner had bought her a bouquet of flowers. I didn’t get her anything and I’m glad. She doesn’t deserve it.

They frequently tell me how wonderful my sister is, how often she calls them and cares about them and I’m often asked or told “why can’t you be more loving and caring like her?”. I have no desire to be like her. As Attila said previously, she is a carbon copy of my mother. And quite frankly, I think my mother is a wicked and cruel person with not an ounce of kindness in her bones. I struggle to find any good in my mother. She may give us money but, as stated in one of the posts here, her gifts are attached with lots of strings. No ribbons.

Prior to leaving the UK to go to their home, they stayed with us and decided to give us (a generous sum of) money for a new bathroom. We were very grateful actually, as we couldn’t afford it. After we did it, she told me she wanted us to let my mother in law know that it was her who gave us the money to do this. I said I wouldn’t as it was nobody’s business. She couldn’t hide her disappointment. She wanted others to know how generous she was. The narcissistic trait of it being all about them.

@LadyAnanas They are playing a game you can't win because the rules always change and only they know the rules.

When I left home I hoped the relationship with my parents may improve (no more stroppy teenager for them to deal with) so I used to tell them things that might please them or make them proud. But it was always met with indifference or sisterlemon or someone else's daughter had done something so much better.

So I stopped telling them so much as it just seemed pointless, as well as upsetting.

Then it was all 'woe is me, we don't know anything about yellowlemon, she never talks to us' to anyone who would listen.

@yellowlemon That sounds very familiar. I definitely don’t tell my parents anything about my life. When I do my DM will turn it back to herself, so if I tell her I’m tired, she’ll say “so am I - just because you work it doesn’t mean you’re the only one who’s tired. I’ve got so much housework to do - you don’t even clean your house!” These things just wash over me now. My parents have a very small social group of my DF’s relatives who will listen to the lies and poisonous things said about me. The rest of the family all know what they’re like.

That’s really interesting the idea of them existing in a parallel universe, you’re right. That birthday example is painful, especially your dad saying what he did, he was just thankful he wasn’t in the firing line I imagine.

My sister was once told she sent the wrong birthday card, it was an art card, rather than one with a printed greeting, so not appropriate apparently. Can you imagine anyone thinking that’s ok? And my sister took it seriously, she was so deep in the FOG.

@Fanthorpe Birthday cards were always wrong. Mothers Day cards were a nightmare as my mother insisted on a card with Mothering Sunday on it.

I bought a whole stash of them a few years ago so I wouldn't have to waste time searching for one each year that she might approve of. After going NC with her one of the most cathartic things I did was throwing them all away.

@LadyAnanas my father was the enabler but he could also be incredibly cruel at times and would delight in humiliating me. I used to feel sorry for him but looking back I realise he was just as bad a parent as my mother and did nothing to protect me from her. He was also emotionally unavailable and I never felt that I was loved by him.

I do wonder if we give our fathers a free pass as we don't expect them to be as nurturing. But when I see how my male friends are with their kids and how they completely adore them I realise now that there was no excuse for how my father was.

Hope that makes sense.

@yellowlemon. I am very careful with cards. Finding cards that don’t have a sentimental message is difficult but they do exist and they’re the ones I buy. Because I don’t want her to throw the message in my face (she has done previously) but also because I don’t want to get a hypocrite. What a relief to have been able to throw those cards away!

Agree with you about fathers. My father is definitely the enabler and I’ve seen him too many times smirking as my mother has abused me and even joining in.

Recently, when she’d been particularly cruel and had reduced me to tears, I spoke to him and he told me he loved me. I did feel sorry for him. If he didn’t agree with her, his life would be hell. I’ve seen her humiliate him publicly in front of his family.

What you say makes complete sense but none of this is normal behaviour.