But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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March 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[quote toomuchtooold]@Clutterfreeintraining it sounds like your aunt also wants to recruit you into her efforts to pretend everything is normal! Am I right in thinking you want the chat about your father to stop, but you'd like that to happen without having to "have it out" with your aunt? What about if you were to pointedly change the subject when she brings him up? Just like "oh did he, that's nice, hey did you see Eastenders last night" sort of thing?[/quote]
Yes, I think she might be nudging me to reconcile with him, even though she was as outraged by his behaviour as me (at the time and for a long time after)...I'm starting to feel like they think I'm just holding a grudge and being a bit pigheaded.
I'm not sure if I want it to stop or if I want to stop it from bothering me. They (aunt and siblings) all have the right to have a relationship with him and is it my place to control what conversations they have with me?

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Clutterfreeintraining

Your aunt is the flying monkey here and likely sent in by her brother to do their bidding for him; I would not want anything to do with her now and I would not be seeing her at all going forward.

Such people tend to be well meaning easily manipulated friends and or relatives. She has her own agenda here and is not interested at

all in hearing your side of things so her opinion should be ignored.

I can't imagine my name has passed his lips in the last 3 years tbh. Knowing my aunt as well as I do, I'm fairly sure she's trying to open the lines of communication for us to reconcile. Unfortunately, it's not possible to stop contact with her but I do have very clear boundaries in place and am a lot better at detaching myself from any manipulative behaviour (mostly down to this board ).

Also, ds and I had a really interesting conversation yesterday about my father and I said I felt guilty that I had made our pool of people smaller by going nc. His response was so mature and made so much sense, it really took me by surprise. I just can't imagine hurting him so badly and not trying my absolute hardest to fix it.

It's like I want her to do something really bad
Hi Rocky, the letter that you are planning, rather than it being 'why I want to cut contact with you' if you could make it 'I feel very hurt about xyz and I need to know why you treated me like that'
she may feel so challenged and threatened by this that she responds with an over the top attack which gives you ample grounds to call it a day.
It might not pan out like that though and I'm sure others will have better ideas and useful insights

It seems like you’ve been socialised to believe that cutting someone out of your life can only legitimately be done in response to some terrible crime. It’s not a nice thing to do for no reason but if the person has treated you badly and is bad for you that’s ample justification.

@rockyIV you don't have to justify to anyone, least of all her, why you want to cut someone out of your life.

Your last sentence was interesting. I bet she does know she's treated you badly but just doesn't care. Narcs do know the difference between right and wrong but as long as they are getting the attention they need it doesn't matter. It's why they can change like the wind - when they realise they may have gone too far they reel you back in.

It's up to you whether you send the letter. I told my mother on a phone call that I wouldn't be in touch for a while (a bit of a white lie as I'd already made up mind that it would probably be forever) and because she was unable to control her temper she said something to me that made it really easy to finish it once and for all. Whether that was down to sheer luck or I knew deep down what her response would be I'm not sure. It would have been much more difficult if she'd turned on the waterworks or something to try and guilt trip me.

If she turns up unannounced what can she do? Can she get in your house or do you think she'd stand outside making a scene?

@Clutterfreeintraining yes I think it's absolutely fine - I wouldn't say to control the conversations, rather to influence them. If it was any other subject you didn't want to talk about, you wouldn't feel obliged to listen and respond to everything they had to say about it, so why is it different about your dad? I think we have a tendency to believe we have to be forgiving and turn the other cheek, we have to be "fair", where fair ends up meaning "forget everything bad they ever did and treat them like a blank slate." But it's not like that, there is plenty of history there, your aunt knows it, and you're not obliged to complete the social circuit for her.

Yes, what you say makes complete sense but in my extreme attempts to avoid conflict I sit there and let her tell me about it . I don't offer much response other than 'oh right' or similar.
I nearly snapped recently, on my birthday, when I sat listening to her and my sister talking about him and was cross with myself for not speaking up or leaving the room.
I get confused about what she's trying to do but fear an argument starting if I ask why she's doing it.
I'm beginning to realise how much I should have changed this situation many years ago and almost feel too trapped to do anything about it now.
Urgh, great, I can add regret to the list now too.

No don't be cross with yourself, cut yourself some slack. Trauma cuts deep, it's not that easy to just react the sort of ideal way when their names are mentioned. This shouldn't be about whether you've handled yourself well or badly or whatever, it should be about what steps you could take to protect yourself from this bullshit.

It sounds as if you're imagining taking a stand and your aunt going "why are you just bringing this up now?" - that would be pretty disingenuous of her if she did, because she knows fine why you wouldn't be comfortable talking about your father.

How do you feel when all of this is going on, if you don't mind me asking?

I feel like she thinks the situation has got a bit silly now for continuing so long. However, she generally has quite warped logic so it could be something very different and the uncertainty stops me from talking to her about it.
Yes, I have imagined several times asking her to stop talking about him to me or asking why she's started doing it (it's only been in the last 6 months, if that) but every scenario played through my mind results in me behaving like a stroppy child. And even typing that makes me feel like I'm being childish!
I know I need to seek professional help to deal with all the different facets of this tangled web but it's so much easier to bury my head

It sounds like you are searching for a form of words that will make your aunt understand how you feel, to have compassion for you and then that will stop her from asking about your father. If you were dealing with someone reasonable, that should work, but exactly that "tangled web" of dysfunction is why it won't work. Your aunt already knows what went down with your father, and it hasn't been enough to stop her bringing it up with you.

I am also not a fan of conflict, but I don't think you have to get into a conflict with her. What about if you just get up and go to the toilet? Or make your excuses and go?

Yes, I think that's it but I cling to a little glimmer of hope that if I word it right, it'll be ok. The rational side of me knows there's a fairly big risk of it blowing up, regardless of what I say or how I say it so do I want to deal with the fallout?
I don't really engage in the conversation because my feelings toward him are still raw enough that I can't even pretend to be interested in the fact his step-grandaughter has had a baby or my step mother has updated her fb pic or he's planted some flowers or whatever other bs has happened this week.
I know this is likely me redirecting my anger/upset with him, my feelings of rejection and the apparent ease in which his life continues merrily which is why I've tried to just smile, nod and move the conversation on as quickly as possible.
Thanks for replying...it really helps to get other people's perspective

I’d suggest if you do decide to say something keep it very very simple, don’t apologise, don’t explain and if she asks you to expand just repeat it. Such as ‘ I feel very uncomfortable when you talk to me about your brother, can we talk about x instead?’
Aunt replies. You respond ‘can we talk about something else?’ Aunt replies. You respond ‘I feel very uncomfortable’
You can be pleasant, but don’t say any more, if she carries on, you can say any part of your sentence calmly again, but don’t be drawn into anymore. When she moves on you can thank her, the aim is to be firm, keep your boundaries and maintain the relationship.

It does work, I have to do it myself from time to time, unfortunately.

Brilliant, thank you!! I'll try that in future. And I think when it's both my aunt and my sister, I'll just absent myself.

I've spent a very exhausting 2 hours with my mother this afternoon, listening to the latest list of woes. I look at her and wonder how we have such polar opposite views and opinions on pretty much every aspect of life.

This morning I felt sad about everything but this afternoon I feel more positive that I can change things for the better and that's what I should focus on.

Thank you, again - this board and all the posters have taught me so much and offer such invaluable support

I hope it helps you Clutterfree, it’s all about getting over the need to make everyone else feel comfortable at the expense of your own wellbeing. It’s ok to say you don’t like something or you’re not comfortable. Those childhood fears are deeply ingrained I know. Listen to your fears by all means but try and think of simple ways to work round them. The more you do it the easier it gets.

Yes, very ingrained - will take a bit of practise

I have another request for advice please.
My dsis is getting married at the end of the year and it'll be the first time I'll have seen my father and step mother since the falling out.
On the very rare occasion that both parents have been in the same room since they divorced (maybe 4 times in the last 30 years), I'd be filled with anxiety over how my mother would behave. Whilst she certainly wasn't blameless, I now see how manipulative he was in those situations and want to avoid anything that might cause a scene. I know my wording is probably not great but whilst I can make sense of things in my head about past experiences and disordered behaviours, I'm not really at a stage where 'normal' behaviour comes naturally . Well, not where he's concerned at least!!

Sorry, me again, but the advice is exactly the same - you are not responsible for them or their behaviour, if they behave badly on your sisters wedding day they’re going to look very very foolish. But that’s not your responsibility. Your sister has invited them and decided she wants them there.

Do you have to sit with them? Make sure you’re as far away as possible.

I understand your dread, I’d feel the same. But you’re not their child anymore, you don’t have to allow anyone to be rude or awful to you.

(If you’re really anxious about getting through the day maybe think about going to your gp, ask about beta blockers or valium, I know not everyone will agree with me though!)

Hi all. I don't spend much time on this thread as I find that it stops me from moving forward with my life, but I'm always so appreciative of the advice I receive on it.

Background. I am NC with my mother (since Nov 17) after many years of emotional abuse. I am sad that we weren't able to have a relationship, but I refuse to be a participant in her games any longer.

Over the last few years, she's frequently tried to contact me, by post, email and phone. I have blocked her on everything (bar post, though if anyone knows how, short of moving, I'd love to hear). She's got extended family members involved and now some no longer talk to me. No-one is interested in the pain I've been caused over the years, it's all about his much I'm hurting her by withholding my children from her and not talking to her.

Last week my uncle forwarded an email from her. I replied to him, once again explaining my decision, telling him how unhappy I was that he had become a pawn in his game, and telling him that j would no longer discuss her with him. He said that he wouldn't forward my email, simply tell her that she was wasting her time. I believe him. After the email, I looked into a non-molestation order, but it felt a bit extreme.

This afternoon my door went. On the doorstep was her partner. Laden down with bags (gifts I presume) and flowers. She was in the car. She lives a 2 hour drive away, but I did know she'd be passing my motorway junction today as she went on to visit family. She's attemped to get people to come with her in the past, she asked my brother to drive with her, bringing my toddler nephew too, as the assumption was that I wouldn't be able to send my nephew away. He told her no. She's asked other family members too. All have said no. Her partner, by his own admission just not, doesn't know the half of it and doesn't want to be involved. I feel for him as he's another pawn in her game. I opened the door, but my husband quickly took over and kindly but firmly sent the partner away. To the partners credit, he accepted it at once.

So now I'm seriously considering this non-molestation order. I'm not at risk of any violence, I just want to be left alone. Everytime there's communication, I feel myself spiral, and it throws me off for a good few days. I don't sleep and it drags me down. Yet, it still feels like there's not enough to apply for one.

I'd love any advice on this please. Google just gives me lots of domestic violence advice, and is aimed at women taking them out against partners.

I love my house. We don't want to move. And we shouldn't have to.

Going to post this in Legal too so apologies if you see it twice.

Thank you, fanthorpe.
He won't behave badly, he'll make out everything is peachy and likely offer to buy me a drink or something. Even typing that makes me feel like I'm the one in the wrong of that's what I'm facing.
I will certainly keep the gp in mind if I still feel like this closer to the time - I'm sure it would be better than resorting to alcohol to get me through
Also, were it not for the fact it's my sister's wedding, I have a vague idea of how i'd respond to him if the opportunity ever arose but I really don't think it would be appropriate in this instance

Teetotal, I would apply for one. The law is well behind scientific and sociological progress so it may not work. DM me please though. You deserve peace.

@rockyIV

Hi guys

I've posted on here a couple of times before about my DM under different usernames but am just looking for a little advice.

Since having my DD 2 years ago I have been really struggling with accepting the way my DM treated me as a child and throughout my adult life. She is a textbook narcissist and I've had enough. I was just leafing through my journal and I hate how much time and energy I have wasted trying to make sense of her behaviour. I have a list of examples of toxic stuff she's done to me that I have to add to everytime I see her and she comes out with something new.

So I need advice on how to end it. We can go for weeks without talking (her sulking and waiting for me to call, me enjoying the peace) and when I do see her I'm pretty grey rockish already. She lives quite close to me so if just stop contact she would inevitably end up just turning up unannounced. I have written her a letter basically saying I don't want her in my life anymore and ask her not to contact me. Do I send it? I need to do something. I don't want to be writing about how much I hate her in my diary in 2025.

It's like I want her to do something really bad so I can tell her to do one, but in truth she has been doing something really bad, consistently throughout my whole life, she just doesn't realise it.

Thanks for reading!

im a lot late to this, but I personally wouldn't give any narc a letter telling them anything. they will use it as a weapon against you to show others how awful you are. If you are going to tell her that you don't want contact, better over the phone or face to face. I know that takes a lot of balls, but it leaves no trace.

IF she insists on ignoring your request, THEN put it in a text that you have requested space away from her and that she needs to respect that, IF THIS doesn't work then you have to look to legal stuff.. 9 times out of 10 it won't get to that, but if it does, it shows that you were even more right to do so.

The letter works for you in that it's cathartic, but with narcs, leave no trace...

You're doing the right thing, but do things wisely because you are the one that's important in all this and you don't need her manipulating this any more than she has done already

@TeetotalKoala - absolutely do whatever you need to protect yourself, and getting an order against her will be the way to go - see CAB or a local solicitor for help with this

Now you can all go past this if you like l am having a massive bleddy vent , l won't be offended if you do honestly l just need to get this out GRRRRRRRR!
Background I care for my Mum 88 and her partner 89 in his house during the Covid lockdown. Mum is usually very sharp mentally , terrible physically . Partner , Bob is physically brilliant , mentally not so good. They make a good pair though tbf. I go to see to them every day for a couple of hours and l do everything for them. My 2 siblings do nothing except criticise me for doing my best. So you can see what l am up against. I am NC with the both of them l have had them up to my eyeballs.
Mum has driven me nuts this morning, absolutely bleddy nuts. First she phoned me , while l was in the bath , l had to get out to answer and get back in again and l hate doing that so it wasn't a good start . She said ' How is Dd2 getting on in work ? . I said 'Aw love her she's missing work terribly , she misses her workmates and the craic' . Mum said 'she must be missing getting up and down in work , being mobile' as if she was a lazy fat pig because she is working from home. She then in the same breath said 'Poor Harvey, fancy he's 27 stone'. I was fuming. Harvey has Prader Willi syndrome, the poor boy always feels starving hungry, it's a terrible syndrome. Honestly she is so bleddy ignorant and unkind. I despair l really do. So then we had to do shopping for them. Not a problem with that but we get up there and the fridge is full of stuff that isn't wrapped properly , ham gone dry, sausages left open for 2 days, l had to throw the lot out . The bins were overflowing , she had fallen in the bathroom again, thankfully she was ok , couldn't find her phone, her hearing aids, her purse, the paper, God knows where her teeth were , her meds had been mixed up, same old, same old . Her mobile when we found it, was wiped of most of the numbers again , l don't know wth she is doing to it . Had to check her phone to see who had left messages, 12 in total and who had tried to phone her, 28 phone numbers and all because it is my SIL birthday and l sent her flowers off Mum and she hasn't spoken to Mum since she went there 16 weeks ago because she didn't agree with her going and it was all my fault according to my SIL apparently. l should have told her and stopped her, so Mum is looking all the time to see if sil has rung her, Mum has rung the SIL/Brothers house 6 times this morning . I feel sad for her because she worships them and they don't GAF about her. Had to phone Bob's Dd then, I am totally deaf my left side and l was leaving a message saying l was at his address and it is a Welsh Name, Mum interrupted my message to tell me l was saying the address wrong and was mispronouncing it, when l ended the call immediately because l couldn't hear what she was saying , l said 'Mum don't interupt me while l am leaving a message', she put her head down as if l had hit her and damaged her is some way. Totally overreacting when she should have said 'oh darling l am sorry you can't hear me speaking and use the phone'. Mum asked me to see if Bob could have his eyes tested when Specsavers came to do Mum . So when l rung Bob's daughter she said yes that's fine & confided in me that Bob had broken the power washer the week before, had it repaired only last week , then he has broken it yet again this week , she wasn't very happy with him lol. She said she is going to buy him an electric Karcher one she is fed up of repairing it . She is so lucky that she ONLY has to do that for him because we do everything else ! Then l put the phone down and Mum pipes up with' l am so glad you are friends with Bob's daughter now' as if l hadn't been friends with her and it was my fault. Bob's daughter was very rude to me when Mum first went to stay and we spoke via text but l didn't reply to her last very abrupt rude text.
I took several nice cards up for the next few birthdays etc for Mum to give to ppl. Mum only filled in my Dd2 card which isn't until 4 weeks away and she wrote it to my other Dd1 ! She just doesn't listen!
However I promise l am not the pooh troll the worst thing was, Mum had managed somehow to give herself a glycerine suppository, how the hell she did that l really don't know because her hands are riddled with arthritis & she was sat with the mess under her, on Bob's sofa for the whole time l was there and just as we were going she decides to tell me, 2 hours later ! So l had to clean her up & change her clothes without Bob finding out. l mean how am l supposed to do that when he is sat by the side of her, the poor bgr! Then she says, 'leave the clothes there l will see to them later' .Fully knowing that she won't do them, she is unable to do them physically, that either l do them now, or they will be left there for me to do tomorrow! She is not constipated at all, TRUST ME l WON'T GO INTO IT BUT I KNOW .l told her 'you are getting like an old person who is obsessed with their bowels Mum' I mean FFS! I was really irritated today and she makes me feel like a nasty person & l really don't like it .