But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi @Neron - reading about the FOG here was a real eye-opener and helped me so much with my decision to go fully NC. I'd started to get rid of the obligation and some of the guilt but the fear was totally gripping me still.

But then I started to really think about what was I so scared of. What exactly could a little old lady who lived over 50 miles away do to me? She couldn't physically hurt me, she couldn't say anything worse than she had for the last 40 + years, the only thing she thought she had a hold on me over (her will) I really couldn't care less about, she could bad mouth me to people who didn't know me but so what?

Understanding all of this gave me the final bit of courage I needed to finally stand up to her, set boundaries with her for the first time in my life, and get her out of my life once and for all.

Nobody except the people on this thread would ever understand how much guts it took to do it. And although the first few weeks were hard and the O and G came flooding back I have never felt freer or happier since. I really didn't realise how badly she affected my mental and therefore physical health until she was gone.

You must do what is best for you and your family. Keep posting on here. It really is the most wonderful place.

The more you can step back
yes, distance is key, when you're in the fire you cant process and evaluate properly, you need space to think and get an overview, that's why they try to keep you in their grasp...so you never get the chance to see things clearly
honestly, from your description you mother sounds like a black pit that tries to drag you in:(
turn away from this darkness, walk towards the sun
(excuse me for being melodramatic!)

Fixer!! Yes, that's a very accurate description! I've never not been there, sorting things out. People used to tell me (when I was a child) I was more of an adult than some adults, and had a very old head on my shoulders. I guess I haven't not done my best for fear of reprisals. I would never have got over it then, if I hadn't financially helped mum and she lost her house. My sisters were in tears begging me to help as they didn't want to lose their home. I see that manipulation now.

It's nice to be able to let things go on here to people that understand, that don't know my family and who aren't telling me I've deserved everything that's happened to me. At the same time, I am truly, so very sorry, that the reason you most likely understand is because you've experienced it yourselves.

I hope @yellowlemon I will become like you.
The fear is still very real, but when I think, as you did, she's an old woman in poor health (emphysema, another thing she plays on, even though she still smokes) so what realistically is she going to do? She needs me more than I need her

@Neron It's hard when they're old and/or ill as you feel you should look after vulnerable people.

However, she never looked after me when I was vulnerable (ie a child) and although I know this isn't about tit for tat there are plenty more people who are deserving of my time and energy.

And no without her zapping all my mental energy I have more time for the people I do care about including myself.

I still have a long way to go to 'heal' myself. I'm still very paranoid about what people think of me, I have procrastination down to a fine art, I can be too clingy or too distant but every day gets better. And it really helps that I understand why I behave the way I do sometimes and it's not because I'm a bad or horrible or evil person.

Re the fixer label - in groups of people I was always known as the practical one rather than the (for example) emotional one. But we have to be fixers. Nobody taught me how to navigate the world - I had to learn it myself, and I knew I had no support if I was to mess up.

@Neron - as an aside the thing that made me realise there was something wrong with my mother and not with me and set me on this path of discovery was Googling 'is it normal for adults to be scared of their parents?'. That was about 6 years ago. I didn't go NC until the end of last year so it took me a long, long time.

I didn't want you to think that the decision I made was easy or quick - it's ok to take your time to find the best solution for you.

@yellowlemon yes definitely an element of her being vulnerable and feeling the need to look after her. You are right in saying that about your mum. I've never stopped to think that she's not looked after me. She should have protected me.

I appreciate it wasn't a rash decision for you and your honesty. I've been this way since I can remember and I'm 36 now. I don't know how to be different

@Neron Thank you.

You can be different. It wasn't until my late 30s that I realised I needed to take control of my life and started questioning things. I think quite a lot of us have the epiphany at similar ages.

It's still such a taboo subject which means we don't talk about it when we're younger and get the help we need earlier.

For years and years I thought I could solve the problems, I thought if I was a nicer, kinder, better daughter, if I didn’t act like such a know-it-all, if I accepted that my sister was jealous of me, if I lost a bit of weight, if I visited more and accepted their shouting and quarrelling, if I accepted that my mother’s friends and neighbours lives were more interesting than anything I was saying, if I would join in with criticising everyone they knew, if I would agree that my mothers memories of events was the right one even if it frequently changed etc, etc etc. My husband used to say I was like a tiny version of myself when I was with them, that they wouldn’t recognise the person I was when I was with my friends. I just thought this is what I had to do and worked harder to please them, even though there was always something I seemed to get wrong.

Until something happened (my mother did something incredibly cruel and selfish my scapegoat sibling) and suddenly I realised that it wasn’t my responsibility to accept all these things. I contacted them and told them I wanted to not hear from them for a while. It was terrifying beforehand, but I felt strangely calm when I was speaking to them, very very angry though for the first time in my life, the fear moved over.

The relief was incredible. Of course they didn’t stop, my mother was outraged, she kept trying to contact me. A few weeks later I called her back and the fury was incredible, she’d come up with a whole narrative putting me at the heart of what had happened, I had planned it all a long time ago, she was the victim. I stayed as calm as I could, didn’t try to correct her, just kept saying that I hadn’t chosen this, I didn’t want to hear from them, she put the phone down.

The relief is huge, although I still think about them and incidents from the past just about every day. I feel very sad quite often. But that dread has gone. That feeling of humiliation, of always being wrong isn’t there now.

It’s possible to change but you have to seize hold of the idea that you are responsible for yourself, and that being afraid is miserable.

I need to be different. I'm someone who beats myself up constantly about what I've done, what others think. I lack confidence but can have a terrifying temper. The other day when I was manipulated by my mum, I lost my temper and did something stupid. Since then my heart is so heavy, my breathing shallow, my mind constantly reliving it etc. That isn't me anymore. My DH was there, he didn't have chance to stop me. He saw she was trying to wind me up and I wasn't responding, so she changed tune and started victim playing things I would react to. And I did like a total fool. Nothing seems to have come of it, but one day it will go too far. I can't live my life like this.

@Fanthorpe how you were sounds so similar to how I am. I'd also be careful of what I said and was ashamed of things I'd achieved because otherwise I'd be rubbing in their face.
I am glad that you were able to distance yourself, and I understand it wasn't easy or without a personal battle. I am inspired that people can live a better life and be free

I spent time yesterday looking in to counselling again. As they are all £70 an hour, I can't afford that right now as on furlough and my self employed business is mostly wiped out for now. Do you think if I got a note book and began writing things down, getting it all out, that it would help me a bit now? I've so ordered a couple of books, one being the body keeps the score

Neron have you tried actually giving them a ring and telling them you can’t afford full price? I’ve recently started therapy again and am paying £70 per hour, but I am lucky enough still to be employed and I believe most therapists charge on a sliding scale.

In the meantime, if it helps you to write things down, that might be a good thing for you. I personally can’t because I have so much experience of having stuff snooped over, read, ridiculed, having anger directed at me if I was unhappy. My mum even sent me to a psychiatrist once and obtained the records of what I’d said during the consultation somehow! But if you can identify and name your emotions, or writing your thoughts down helps get rid of them, definitely give it a go.

Writing things down helps, mindfulness can help, exercise especially outdoors, spending time doing things you enjoy.

But if you are continually adjusting your ‘self’ to accommodate abuse then you will be continually experiencing these dissonant feelings, turning yourself inside out.

I think Attila’s line is ‘the only acceptable level of abuse is none’

@CeciledeVolanges I did respond to one of them that I couldn't afford it right now, and that I would make contact when I could. I haven't heard from her since. If I couldn't afford it that was that.
It's how I grew up, we literally had nothing. Pretty destitute so I learnt early if I didn't have the money then I didn't get it. Very much live my life that way now.

It's only me and DH here, and I am incredibly lucky to be with him. He is an amazing soul so I could poor my heart out in to the notebook and he would never read it unless I wanted him to. I am sorry that you've never been able to speak freely and even that was controlled by your mum

@Fanthorpe - that's exactly how I was. If only I was a better person then maybe she'll be nice to me. Of course it didn't work because as someone said on here once they are playing a game you can never win. I was also terrified before telling her I was going NC but like you as I told her this calmness came over me, and afterwards the relief was so immense. I felt like a proper grown-up for the first time.

I remembered something this morning which really summed up her behaviour.

Whenever we were going somewhere as a family we would always be late because she was so completely disorganised. And then when we were finally all ready to leave she would suddenly decide to do something completely trivial like rearrange the carrier bags under the sink.

I remember my father begging and pleading with her to do it another time so we could get going and she'd snap back 'I've started now, it needs doing, it won't take 5 minutes' and then the killer line 'they'll just have to wait'.

You can imagine a toddler behaving like that - that's how my mother was about everything.

yellowlemon mine was the same with the lateness! We would always just squeak up to places a few minutes late or on time. She would frequently get in the bath right before we were due to leave. I remember waiting hours sometimes to be picked up from the bus as a child, I learned just to read a book and not say a word, just be grateful I had a lift home at all.

I also felt very calm after cutting contact but she’s creeping back in. I have a nightmare about her every single night without fail. She called my boss at work recently - said boss then told me she was sure my mum was “just concerned” and god knows what my mum told her. I’m preparing to move to a completely different part of the country and it’s now coming to me that I have no idea what I actually want for myself and no faith in my ability to do anything at all any more. My parents never trusted me to make sure the front door was closed or I was properly dressed, my mum was still asking if I needed the toilet before we left the house up to a couple of years ago and I’m 28 years old!

And Neron I’m glad you’ve got a good DH, you deserve really good people in your life especially after what you’ve been through.

@CeciledeVolanges oh god yes, I used to wait for hours to be picked up, or I'd arrive home and nobody would be in so I'd have to sit on the front door step for ages. Because of course I wasn't allowed to have my own key.

And I can relate to the never being trusted to do anything. However, I'm not sure if it was really a lack of trust, or just a way of them continuing to exert control by infantilising me. I mean they certainly trusted me enough to completely fend for myself when I left to go to university with zero emotional, financial, or physical support. They couldn't even drive me there.

Yet the minute I went back home I was too stupid to be trusted to shut the back door.

Yes, I definitely think it’s a control thing. Unfortunately it also means I haven’t been allowed to have any achievements unless they are actually totally down to my mother, her contacts, her choices about where to educate me and so on.

@CeciledeVolanges Same. I couldn't possibly be interested in anything she wasn't interested in. It was all dismissed with a "Why on earth would you want to do that?"

After a while the negativity just becomes so much that you give up. I just couldn't imagine having a child and not encouraging any dreams or talent they had.

Do you know I find that really interesting about not having a key, and waiting to be picked up. I did get a key eventually, but most of the time I had to fend for myself. Reading your story has reminded me of something else. My step dad had a real issue me getting a lift or picked up. My grandparents didn't live far, about a 20 min walk. I'd go to theirs after school every Friday so my parents had a break from me. My grandad worked a few nights for pocket money, a Friday being one of them. I'd have dinner there and he'd drop me home on the way to work as he had to drive past my house. Only my step dad wouldn't have that. He'd say I was old enough to walk there so I could walk back. I got grounded when grandad dropped me home and he saw through the window, so after that, grandad tried dropping me off out of sight. Only my stepdad timed it, saw my grandad drive past with me walking in a short while later and knew I must have got a lift from him. I got whacked and grounded for that one. Another time I had my dress and hoop to carry home (I was queen in the local carnival). Mum was forbade to pick me up so I was forced to carry it all home. As I was longer than I said I would be (had to keep stopping, it was heavy), I got grounded for that too!

I was never grounded (where on earth would I have been going?) but my mum’s inability to pick me up on time was mirrored by her uncontrollable rage when I stayed later at work than she thought I should, so basically later than my contracted hours. She HATES me having a job and hated it even more when I gave them my time and energy, not her. It’s made me very vulnerable at work because I view staying late or working extra hours as some sort of amazing privilege or freedom.

Ah Neron, so so controlling, so insidious, so UNKIND!!! Of course it doesn’t hurt children to walk a bit, but why would you DO this, unless you had an unshakeable belief that whatever you say has to be done?

I have similar stories weirdly which I hadn’t really thought about, coming home after school, no one home and the neighbour asked me in and being told off by my parents for accepting a drink and a biscuit. I was once supposed to meet them after sixth form college one day in a place about a mile away from the college which took me a while to walk to, they were so angry when I arrived and questioned me about where I’d been, insisting I must have stopped off somewhere, which I hadn’t. The fact I still remember it after all this time is so strange! If I asked my kids to do that they’d sensibly ask if I could just pick them up?

Hi guys

I've posted on here a couple of times before about my DM under different usernames but am just looking for a little advice.

Since having my DD 2 years ago I have been really struggling with accepting the way my DM treated me as a child and throughout my adult life. She is a textbook narcissist and I've had enough. I was just leafing through my journal and I hate how much time and energy I have wasted trying to make sense of her behaviour. I have a list of examples of toxic stuff she's done to me that I have to add to everytime I see her and she comes out with something new.

So I need advice on how to end it. We can go for weeks without talking (her sulking and waiting for me to call, me enjoying the peace) and when I do see her I'm pretty grey rockish already. She lives quite close to me so if just stop contact she would inevitably end up just turning up unannounced. I have written her a letter basically saying I don't want her in my life anymore and ask her not to contact me. Do I send it? I need to do something. I don't want to be writing about how much I hate her in my diary in 2025.

It's like I want her to do something really bad so I can tell her to do one, but in truth she has been doing something really bad, consistently throughout my whole life, she just doesn't realise it.

Thanks for reading!

I would give her the letter but put something in there about what you will do if she doesn’t respect your wishes. Be prepared to carry them out as well. My mother has not respected my request that she leave me alone and I’m not brave enough or tough enough to block her so she’s still bothering me. But I’ve had an ex tell me not to get in touch with him or he would be forced to do something to make sure I didn’t, and it really hit home with me, so I would give it a go.