But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My father's 91. I read this about narcissism and it describes him to a T:

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201303/the-narcissistic-father

I hate him. Yet crave a 'dad' so have more to do with him than is healthy for me. I've decided to go low contact with him, citing covid, being busy, whatever as reasons to avoid him.

I want him to die, have done for a long time. Whenever anyone's dad passes away I feel pain for them, and also jealousy for myself. I ask why they had to die and yet my father still goes on and on.

A few years ago I had cancer, he visited me for 10 minutes in hospital after I had surgery, then I never saw him again for about three months as I was too ill to visit him. I had an article published in a book and gave him a copy and he threw it on the floor and said he'd been published too.

Covid has brought everything to a head for me. For various reasons I was wiped out financially when I had cancer and ended up on ESA. With covid I am one of the self employed who missed out on the self employed scheme and my income is now £94 UC.

The man is a millionaire. He would love me to ask him for help because he'd have power, and he craves that. He'd never give me any of course! But any vestiges of feelings I had for him have gone now because what person (with huge assets and lots of money) does this when a child is in dire straits?

Some months ago I was at his house and his wife's son had written to her asking for money (she had left her laptop open and I glanced at it, saw the email from her and nosiness got the better of me), and she just responded, "Of course, I'll send you a cheque for £1000". I felt sad for myself and Happy for him that he has a caring mum. God knows what she sees in my father.

She commented before lockdown that she had just about had enough. He kept speaking to women on the phone inappropriately (I heard him once when obviously asked how he was, say "sex starved as usual." He thinks he's god's gift. His wife phones women up and apologises for his behaviour!

He phoned me up a while ago and told me I needed to know about my grandfather. I got angry and hung up. I worshiped my grandfather. We were the best of friends. Us against the world. The father is jealous and wants to spoil it, of course. I hate him even more for that.

The truth is that I wouldn't bother with him at all if it weren't for the inheritance. There's a trust fund for myself and other children (we don't connect). I want some recompense for his violence and anger and how I have a mental health disorder because of him.

However, I ask myself now is it worth it? Is it worth it because continued contact is detrimental and holding me back from a fulfilling life, and perhaps I could make something of myself if I dropped him to a low level.

My mother is something else. I'm stuck in FOG with her, she lives with me, has dementia, has always been selfish and a sulker, but it's out of control now. But that's another story.

Sorry for long ramble. The anger about my parents is affecting my life right now, and I needed to get some of it out.

xxx

BTW there were never any stately homes or any kind of culture for me! LOL

Something good! I was tempted to stop by today as I was driving past, but I didn't cave in and felt really pleased with myself that I didn't.

I'm considering making a little calender where I cross the days I don't have contact with him, just as a reminder.

Hi @realiseineedtogetthisout. Welcome to the board. I'm so sorry that you experienced that. We're here to listen if that's what you need. Sometimes just writing it all down is cathartic.

Teetotalkoala I think regarding the non-molestation order, I would worry that it will just fuel your mother's appetite for drama. Supposing the police were to see through her kind little old lady act and actually charge her for breaking the order - would she not dine out on that for months? How her daughter had got her a criminal record just for wanting to bring presents to her grandchildren etc etc. Whereas it sounds like the partner is unlikely to facilitate her pestering again after this time, so hopefully there should be a bit of peace now. And if not, send your DH back out, he's got his head screwed on, let him deal with her.

mrsmadevans that sounds hellish. I can see why you try and sort out their stuff for them but is there any way you could offload some of that work onto someone else? Wild guess, they don't like carers and don't want them in the house? But you could stop doing the emotional work for her. The stuff with your SIL and the cards and stuff, would it help if you let that slide? I mean hats off to you for trying though.

blessedescape that sounds really difficult. Does he mention the inheritance at all? Do you think he would mess you around or try to use it to keep you close? I have always tended to work off the assumption that my mother would never give me anything - not just inheritance, gifts, help, anything she promised - that way I was never disappointed. She's not a millionaire though It's hard - I feel like the outside world kind expects from us that we will turn down help from our parents on principle, like we all just had a falling out about something. But they are our parents, we don't have any others, and it's getting harder and harder in this world to get on without a bit of parental help, and it's hard thinking that as well as missing out on all the love and care and help to develop as own people, we also miss out on the material and practical help that decent parents can give their adult children. But, it is what it is. I hope you can come to a decision that you are at peace with.

Oddly enough today my flying monkey auntie has texted me asking if I can get in touch with my mother and give her my new address as she's updating her will. I think if you want to disinherit someone you can do it without needing a forwarding address . I wonder what the hell she thinks. My "new" address is 6 years old. But she never says "what the hell is going on with you and your mum anyway?" - they never do, because they bloody know what's going on.

Thank you so much toomuch❤️😘 an off for another bout 😬😁

Hi blessedescape

re your comment:-

"The truth is that I wouldn't bother with him at all if it weren't for the inheritance. There's a trust fund for myself and other children (we don't connect). I want some recompense for his violence and anger and how I have a mental health disorder because of him".

You know the truth re your dad and that will ultimately set you free.
I would not even bother with him in spite of an inheritance either; its tainted money and there is no cast iron guarantee you would actually see a penny of it when he dies.

Narcissists indeed use money and inheritance as a means of further controlling their victims. If you go up against the narcissistic family and leave every single person in your immediate family behind you because of abusive family dynamics, than you can expect to be written out of the will. This doesn’t necessarily mean that you won’t receive any of your inheritance. However, it does mean that you may need to contest the will (if you have the opportunity), and will most likely receive less than your siblings. This is simply part and parcel of disagreeing with the narcissistic illusion, questioning it, challenging it, and saying no to it.

The psychological abuse aimed directly at the family scapegoat is often so dangerous that this adult child simply has no other choice but to leave their family of origin. It is often a case of making the choice to either lose out financially, or to stay in a role which will see the innocent victim of scapegoating continually shamed, ostracised, blamed and projected onto by very sick, brainwashed family members. However, even if the family scapegoat does stay in the family chaos solely for monetary reasons, there is no guarantee that they’ll receive their inheritance anyway. In fact, there is no guarantee that any of the adult children within the narcissistic family unit will receive their inheritance; not even the golden child. Narcissists are extremely unpredictable. At the drop of a hat the narcissist could suddenly deem their children unworthy of inheriting their money. They may just leave their money to a charity instead of handing it over to children who could never please them.

However, the harsh reality is that the Golden child will probably get their all of their inheritance, whereas the scapegoat may not receive any of it, or only very little of what they should’ve received, and would’ve if their parent hadn’t suffered from NPD.

I have heard of scapegoats sticking around to gain their share of the inheritance, or breaking ‘no contact’ and going back into their toxic family once they feel strong enough for financial reasons. Sometimes this is possible. I guess it depends on whether or not a scapegoated individual can handle the narcissistic projections, and can tough it out until the end. It depends on the malignancy of the situation. Degrees of scapegoating exist. However, for a scapegoat being smeared, shamed, ostracised and triangulated against, facing being written out of the will and going no contact is probably your best option. I would choose emotional safety over an appearance in the will any day.

The sociopathic narcissistic family is nothing more than a hate group. If being disinherited means that one gets to leave toxic hate behind, than as much as it hurts, its the best thing. Money can’t buy you happiness, but leaving a toxic family can.

Toomuchtooold

Sorry to hear about the flying monkey; she has her own agenda here and is acting in her own self interest, certainly not in yours. She is not your friend. At least you are wise to her so carry on ignoring such summonses from her too.

@toomuchtooold @AttilaTheMeerkat

Thank you very much for your replies, they're really helpful! I'd written a post then lost it, but realised it only went over stuff I'd turned over in my mind several times in the past.

Now I keep writing posts and deleting them.

I have a long term plan, in the meantime no contact isn't a good solution for me as I live too near a lot of the family who would make things even worse for me.

Until I can make a clean break, I need to work on my boundaries, and work on keeping to them, so it doesn't affect me so much.

I think I've been moving towards the conclusion that the inheritance isn't worth it. It never mattered to me in the past, I couldn't have cared less! I feel more vulnerable now, I think.

It not mattering at all would be incredibly freeing.

Weird as it sounds, I'm going to make a contact spreadsheet, and note when I have physical, phone and email contact with him,what happened, and work towards lessening it until it's practically non existent. I rarely answer the phone to him anyway, so if I go to not doing it at all and emailing him, that would be a big step forward. Covid is helping me not see him very much, now I need to reduce that too.

I'm going to post this before I change my mind. Thanks very much, I really appreciate what you've said.

Blessed, I say go for it with the spread sheet, if turning him into numbers and graphs helps you to start taking control then use it!
He sounds appalling, cold cruel and totally self absorbed:(

@toomuchtooold That is excellent advice thank you. You are absolutely right. It would result in me being painted in an awful light. Even if she didn't break it, just the notification of the NM order would be enough to give her new ammunition. I'm feeling calmer now and more objective. What she really wants is a reaction. Any reaction. So that would be a win for her.

We think that she drive down here with one of three desired outcomes in mind. 1. A tearful family reunion. 2. Me going out to the car and telling her to fuck off, resulting in a row in the street where she can play the poor misunderstood mother, or 3. That we take the gifts from her partner, but still send them away. Accepting the gifts is an in.

I'm sorry to hear about the flying monkey. Sounds like you've got the measure of her and are doing well to just dismiss her message.

@BlessedEscape. You have so much on your plate. It does sound like dropping to low level is absolutely the right thing for your sanity. Money be damned.

For anyone wondering, the above was spamming not a comment on anyone’s post

Attila you are so right re the Narc changing their minds re inheritance. Both of my DDS have turned their backs on their "inheritance' for a life less toxic. They decided they couldn't put up with 30 yrs of the same shit l had put up with all my life.

I've (probably) turned my back on any inheritance although my parents were always using any excuse to cut me out of their will from an early age (from marrying a black man to getting pregnant if I wasn't married). I'm in the really lucky position where I hopefully won't need the money anyway, although obviously it would be nice.

The way I looked at it was taking a wild guess at how much it might be and dividing it by the number of years my mother might have left to live. Would I be happy to be paid that much for dealing with her plus compensate for all the damage it was doing to my mental health? The answer was no.

I know that's not necessarily right for everyone but it helped me put things into perspective.

Blessed i know you’re overwhelmed with things at the moment, it’s quite terrifying to see your words there in front of you. Even if you delete your posts we know that you’re there and we’re here for you.

I don’t think it’s likely that any of us will get to the point of things ‘not mattering’, I think it’s always going to be painful, but in a much less important way. We can absolutely find a way to live with those feelings and learn to keep their influence on the rest of our lives as low as possible.

Morning all... bit of a non sequitur here but I had this thought, and I knew you lot would understand, and I wanted to share it...

I was thinking about my auntie, like I am going to just ignore her request for my address as usual, but that doesn't stop me running through in my head what I would say to her if I were to actually clue her in as to what is going on. I keep trying to find succinct ways to describe a childhood full of emotional abuse. It's not easy. Nice people lose it with their kids now and then, and there are so many little incidents that can be passed off as accidents, and one sounds so petty listing them all out. But I just thought of something this morning. My kids. They are both 8 now. I can hardly remember the last time I saw either of them crying. Only for big things: proper injuries, or sometimes the older one will get a bit teary eyed if she is finding something hard in her schoolwork. But other than that, no, the doors get slammed, they shout at each other sometimes... when I was that age my mother used to shout at me until I was crying at least 2 or 3 times a week. Like if it didn't happen every day, it was like every other day or so. And I would try and hold it in, but when I started crying she would say "oh don't put on the waterworks, you know it has no effect on me." It did have an effect, it made her even more angry, so I tried not to, but I couldn't control it.

I don't care what other circumstances there are or context or maybe you just took it the wrong way etc etc, if you shout at a kid so long and so hard that they cry despite their best efforts not to, and then you sneer at them and carry on, and that happens multiple times a week for years and years, that is 100 percent no question deliberate, intentional, evil, emotional abuse.

God toomuchtooold I hear you.

She was wrong and that was cruel and humiliating. Sadly those memories are vile to relive because those feelings of powerlessness are accompanied by anger.

The problem is that going back to your aunt with that memory may bring about denial or excuses, which is incredibly painful.

I had a diary when I was a young teenager and I wrote lots of fantasy things in it, a sort of alternative life, describing clothes, parties and people and events that were purely from my imagination. I was at home every night except when I went to a church youth group that had no boys, and I got a very small amount of pocket money.

My mother found my diary open face up on my bed (apparently) and her and my dad confronted me. They bizarrely forced me to confess that I was secretly drinking and smoking by saying I wouldn’t have written it in my diary if it wasn’t true. Ignoring all the other things I’d written that were demonstrably not true, I was a rather pathetic 13 year old and I still don’t understand what they were thinking. I think just being able to spend the evening telling me how hugely disappointed in me they were and shouting at me to stop lying was enough.

My mother used to shout at me until I was crying at least two or three times a week
Same here I remember as a preschool child that she would go into a rage and attack me verbally and physically, I would retreat to my room crying and humiliated, when she had calmed down she would come to my room and I would have to agree with her that she wasn't a horrible person
Not only did I have to soothe myself I had to soothe her too🙄 the implication was that I was to blame for her rages
and the words, I'll make you wish you never been born, wipe that look off your face, you've got a face like a wet weekend, get out of my sight, I'll give you something to cry about
of course the mantra 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me' was often repeated.
I see it all so clearly now I see exactly how it worked exactly what they did and how they did it, but it's too late I think they instinctively knew that by the time I understood it all they would be a pair of withered old husks and there would be no point in retaliation
I suppose the only retaliation is that now instead of helping them in their time of withering and becoming husks I will just let nature take its course
At least I can enjoy my golden years without the inconvenience of providing or organising elder care🌞

@Fanthorpe - that's so weird. I did almost exactly the same thing - wrote about a fantasy life and boys I fancied, things I would like to do. And just like you I never went out apart from to church with my parents. But again, they somehow found the diary and I was screamed and shouted at, told how disappointed they were in me and how much they'd let them down, and they also got my teachers involved to keep an eye on me in case I was truanting at lunchtime. FFS - it was just normal teenage girl behaviour desperately trying to cut the apron strings in the only way I knew possible.

I also remember spending a large amount of my childhood in tears either from being constantly told off and humiliated or as I got older out of sheer frustration and misplaced anger.

There was another time when on one of the rare occasions I was allowed to go to a friend's house. (This was when I was over 16) and all we did was eat pizza and listen to music.

When I got home (probably around 10 as I wouldn't have been allowed out any later) I was met with stony silence which went on for a couple of days until they finally blew up and screamed at me for lying about where I'd been because I'd clearly not been at my friend's house because we'd all gone out clubbing or something instead.

No matter what I said they would not believe me and when I pleaded with them to phone my friend's parents to confirm that we'd stayed in all evening they said something to the effect that they were the sort of people who wouldn't care where their daughter was and therefore probably didn't know whether we'd stayed in or not.

Completely fucking mental.

Oh my god yellowlemon that’s extraordinary, I just know now 100% that they must have gone looking for that diary, I didn’t leave it out. It didn’t even cross my mind at the time to feel aggrieved that they’d invaded my privacy and read it, I just felt humiliated that I was being punished for something I hadn’t done and had no opportunity to do. My dad kept warning me about getting pregnant, which was just extraordinary in the circumstances, given how I was dressed (jumble sales) and what I did (nothing).

I had a similar issue when I was about sixteen, I did get drunk and my friend brought me home. My parents were checking my arms because they were convinced I’d taken drugs (hilarious, I’d had some cider) and then asked my friend if we were lesbians when she offered to stay and make sure I was ok.
But it was all fine because not long after we moved to the middle of nowhere, so that put an end to any social life.

@Fanthorpe - same about getting pregnant. They were obsessed with it. Never mind that I went to a girls' school, never went anywhere, was so timid I could hardly speak to anyone, and looked absolutely dreadful.

Of course the minute I left home that's all they wanted from me - to find a nice boy, and settle down with a few babies. Like anyone was going to be remotely interested.

I'm sorry you had to go through similar experiences - it's really an extreme form of gaslighting I suppose - and that you're in a better place now.