But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

It was a troll enquiring about how wet pet cats were so no need to feel fear in this corner of MN

Binny, I didnt see the Jullyria post but they have posted on other threads & been deleted so I think prob a spam post?
It's so dreadful to be not believed when you do find the courage to disclose abuse, I was attacked and dismissed for speaking out, you know very well that what happened to you was abuse and yet they 'pretend' it doesnt matter:(
Anger is a totally normal reaction to such treatment.
Have you been able to distance yourself from the toxic people?

Jullyria appeared on loads of threads last night, someone very bored and boring, nothing of relevance to anything said on this thread, I promise! Mostly nonsense about threads being reported and being hidden. Poor Night Watch mods had a long night of it.

You were a scapegoat Binny, you didn’t deserve what happened to you, you deserved love.

I sincerely hope you keep up your plans to move forward. It sounds like you’ve recognised that there’s been a theme in your life. Look for ways to build and reinforce your boundaries. Decide what course your life will take. You sound like you’re getting braver.

Hi everyone, I hope you don’t mind me posting. I’ve glanced at this thread over the years and am always amazed at the amount of knowledge and support available.

My problem is more with my in-laws and seeing the damage they are doing to my DH. The latest incident was when they visited and crossed some clear boundaries that we had set (mainly his mother). My DH subsequently messaged them and calmly explained how he didn’t like that or understand why they did that and he was met with excuses/minimising/condescension. His dad and brother mainly do the angry talking and defend my DH’s mum, while she tends to stay quiet. My DH didn’t attack his mum directly, but their responses to him always imply that.

He’s now at a loss of what to do. The issue wasn’t resolved but just a day later his mum is messaging him making inane chit chat and he feels completely stumped about how to respond. Responding to the chit chat in a ‘normal’ way seems to just brush over his hurt and their response, but equally he thinks if he continues with his point things could become even more unpleasant.

Does anyone have experience with this pattern of behaviour? Or how to respond to them when they go back to ‘cheery’ mode?

Thank you everyone for your kind words.

@Fanthorpe I recognise your user name as you’ve responded to me on other threads and you have always been so kind and lovely. I think you actually directed me to this thread. It might have been under my other old username.

@Daisychain1987 I hope you get some advice on here. I know how hard it can be dealing with in-laws so good luck

Hi everyone,
Just after a bit of advice if anyone could spare 5 mins please.
I've posted before about going nc with my father and received so much support and great advice.
It's been 3 years now and nothing's changed really but lately my aunt (his sister) has taken to regularly bringing him up in conversation with me and I don't know how to respond. I really don't want to talk about him but then I feel mean because in her own, slightly muddled, way she wants to pretend everything is normal.
I'm torn between asking her to stop talking about him to me and just nodding and making the right noises until the conversation's moved onto something else.
What do you think?

I hope you don't mind me joining. I'm actually struggling a lot at the moment. This may be long, I just need to purge in a safe place please.

I was born into domestic violence, alcoholic bio dad would beat my mum, even when she was holding me. Too young to remember really, and they separated when I was 3. He went to court for access/custody to be spiteful. He would drink drive me home. His family would say things to me like I was too ugly to be his daughter. He'd drop me off alone to the swimming pool for the day from age 6 and go to the pub. Purposely get my curly hair cut short which resulted in bullying at school, buy me toys and clothes occasionally but not let me take them home. I could only play/wear them when there. Would never pay child support, said he didn't earn anything. I witnessed physical and mental abuse of his further 2 wives. He has 2 further children, would buy them things and flaunt it in front of me. Always telling me He'd buy me something for birthday/xmas but wouldn't.

Mum moved on pretty quick with my step dad. We were very poor growing up. He was very controlling. Had to be seen and not heard, I grew up petrified of him. I was punched, we'd hide in fear under the bed and He'd drag us out and lay in to us. If friends knocked he either wouldn't answer or slam door in their face. Purposely have dinners with food we didn't like. Very early bedtimes, grounded and restricted to our rooms in silence lot. Would put 3 condiments on the table but say we could only have 2 of them. He would tell us he wanted to die before he was 30, would never be around for when we got married, or children. Play the Who song my generation and turn it up on line 'hope I die before I get old then say that was him, he would never be an old man. He was a pro boxer in his youth, got in to physical fights with multiple neighbours and even family. Had the police knock a lot. Faked suicide when my grandad died as mum wasn't giving him any attention. Baby sister found him. Pretended to be seriously ill with cirrhosis which we found out on his autopsy there was nothing wrong with him. He did go on to kill himself.

Mum knew of all this, never protected us. Would say we deserved it. Never turned up to any parents day, sports day, or anything else where parent attendance was needed. She moved from man to man, all losers. As with step dad, we'd be subjected to hearing her have sex frequently. We'd gone to a family wedding, our family in 1 room and they had set in the bed knowing I was awake (I was on the floor next to it). Mum puts men before us always and would say we were old enough to look after ourselves, she's putting herself first. She is lazy, always negative. I've had to help her financially a lot, if I don't She'll guilt trip me that she would lose her house, do I want to be the one to make her homeless. I don't get most of that money back. If I do well with something there is a congrats but also sneering. She is jealous. Me or my DH have to do everything for her, she plays the victim a lot. She knows how to, and does manipulate me in to doing things a lot. An e.g is she knows how I feel about animal cruelty, she made out family member had abused their dog so I it angered me and I went round there. They hadn't at all. I've had to beg her work to keep her in a job where she's rude to customers. She expects to come live with me. There's never a nice interaction with her, she always moans. I've said this and she said tough as she needs to vent at someone. I've tried to go low contact, but she tells everyone how I have abandoned her, they all say what a crap daughter I am, as I'm the eldest I need to look after her etc.
There's so very much more. It's wearing on me at the moment.

@Clutterfreeintraining it sounds like your aunt also wants to recruit you into her efforts to pretend everything is normal! Am I right in thinking you want the chat about your father to stop, but you'd like that to happen without having to "have it out" with your aunt? What about if you were to pointedly change the subject when she brings him up? Just like "oh did he, that's nice, hey did you see Eastenders last night" sort of thing?

Neron

I have read many posts about abuse within families over the years and yours is right up there in being one of the worst in recent times.

Am very sorry to read what has happened to you; none of this was and remains your fault at all. This is all on the abusive adults who have all failed you abjectly. No-one thought it necessary to protect you from your mother and the seemingly never ending procession of men she brought down upon you all.

Your mother was and remains abusive as well as being supremely selfish. She still bullies you and uses you still to your overall detriment. At the very least you and for that matter your DH need to stop as of now with doing anything for her; she merely expects you as her scapegoat and enabler to continue that role. How can you be helped into having no contact at all with your abusive mother?. Your own fear, obligation and guilt keeps you too in this holding pattern, a pattern that is also destructive to you. I would also suggest therapy for your own self re her, you need to be able to talk in both a calm and safe environment.

Let her supposedly go around telling everyone that you have abandoned her; you know the truth re your abusive mother and the truth will set you free. She won't readily be believed but if they believe your mother then they are easily fooled too and are not worth your time or knowing.

I would also suggest you contact NAPAC as they are very good; the link is here:-
napac.org.uk/

BACP are also worth considering too re counselling and or therapy.

Clutterfreeintraining

Your aunt is the flying monkey here and likely sent in by her brother to do their bidding for him; I would not want anything to do with her now and I would not be seeing her at all going forward.

Such people tend to be well meaning easily manipulated friends and or relatives. She has her own agenda here and is not interested at

all in hearing your side of things so her opinion should be ignored.

@Neron hello! You're very welcome on the thread.

Bloody hell, you really had the full set of hellish parents. Physical and emotional abuse, neglect - both your bio dad and your stepdad sound like vicious, evil men. And while your mother may have been less sort of actively, purposefully abusive, she never hesitated to throw you under the bus if it made her life easier.

I'd bet you a month's salary that your mother grew up in a similar environment but it's no excuse. As adults we're responsible for our own behaviour and in IMO if you don't try to protect your children you've failed the most basic test of life.

What do you want to do? I shouldn't tell you what to do but I will anyway, I think you should stop taking her calls, stop giving her money, and tell her to sod off. And all those people who will tell you that she's your responsibility to look after. She's an adult, she should be able to look after herself. Maybe it's time she started learning? Of course if you drop her, she'll start trying to get your siblings or other family to pander to her and give her money and all that, and they don't want that, which is why you get all these lectures on loyalty. It's all crap.

Thank you Attila.
I've had a lot of therapy over the years but I think it's time to go back. My anger is returning and it will get my in trouble if I don't deal with this now.

Honestly, thank you @toomuchtooold
My Nan was a hard, cold woman, but my grandad was a placid, happy but quiet man. Whilst mum may not have had much in the way of maternal interaction from nan, my grandad was a very good dad to her and my aunts. I do accept her childhood wasn't conventional though because of how nan was.

I feel like I should always he around, like it is my duty? I know its not, but I've acted like the parent and protected my sisters most of my life. I guess I don't know how to be any different? I take on board what Attia said about the truth setting me free.

I've dealt with a lot in my life from my parents, to being bullied, to being raped at 16 which took my virginity. It's always been installed in me that whatever has happened to me, has been my fault. I do know this, paid for a lot of therapy over the years, but it's so easy to revert back to those feelings when in times like this. Those feelings come back so very easily.

Neron, you have suffered an horrific childhood, please believe that you deserve to be free of your mother, you owe her nothing at all.
let us help you break free so that you can achieve some of the peace and freedom that you so deserve
🦋 🙏🦋

Thank you @Ulterego I can't continue this anymore

Neron your anger is there as a big klaxon telling you to leave this woman behind you and live a life. You’ve paid your dues, which were never owed anyway.

My heart goes out to you and the child you were. I hope you find some peace.

You're a coper, Neron. You've never had any option but to cope.

I bet you feel like it is your duty. It's part of the FOG - fear, obligation, and guilt - that they train us up in as kids. I used to feel like it was my duty to look after my mother because "I was her only daughter and she was my only mother". I'd still be doing it if she hadn't done a number on my kids. I found it much easier to break contact for the sake of my kids than I did for my own sake. But I was deserving of a life free of her head wrecking nonsense on my own account, and so are you.

@Neron the anger is a gateway to your feelings of sadness, powerlessness and hurt. It IS possible to pass through that gateway. The first step starts with realising that you aren’t her parent yet you bc are parenting HER better than she did you. Anyone that says you should stick in there (IF there actually is anyone saying that) is looking out for themselves NOT you

I genuinely cannot thank you all for replying to me. I honestly wasn't expecting any response. I just thought if it was off my chest it would help. Honestly, it really has. I feel quite drained with taking on board the advice here, and thinking today of what I need to do.
I definitely relate to FOG. My other sister is in a DV relationship right now and I've realised today how I am trying to protect her from a sister POV, but also as a victim and trying to stop her feeling how I have all those years? It looks so dumb now I've written it down, but it is resonating. I've worked so hard to be different from my mum, to have a life I wasn't destined to if I wasn't so determined. My anger at trying to protect my sister is what is going to ruin what I've worked for.

she always moans. I've said this and she said tough as she needs to vent at someone
and in your head (or out loud if you want) you can say 'find someone else to vent at, I will no longer be your punchbag'
Your mother sounds extremely damaged and dysfunctional, it's not that she doesnt deserve any help or support, she's human she deserves an opportunity to heal but she cannot expect help or support from those whom she has abused and harmed
she is not your problem, your first duty is YOUR own wellbeing Neron, protect and save yourself, it may be too late for your mother but you can still escape and have a better life

The more you can step back @Neron, the more you will be able to see in wide angle and step further away with less and less guilt. Would you behave to your child the way she has CHOSEN to - because IT IS a choice make not mistake

Neron don’t underestimate your feelings of responsibility to be the fixer in your family. Feeling like you are the one who can sort everyone’s problems, that you’re the calm sensible one. Don’t fall for it, it lets them all off the hook. I feel for your sister, shes been chosen by an abuser, and I respect your wish to help her, but please take care of yourself, make and keep good boundaries.

The FOG is such a helpful thing to know about.

What she said ^^