But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello @idontkowmyname.

I'm new to this topic and the forum too, and I just wanted to say that you're not alone. There are some very wise people on here and there's always someone to talk to.

We all have different ways of dealing with things of course. I've never tried counselling myself but a lot of people do and find it invaluable, especially with CBT - is this something you would consider?

Are you thinking about making changes to your situation with your husband? It certainly is NOT the way life is "meant to be". Your post sounded very sad.

Have a little hug from me in the meantime. I'm going to make myself a cuppa now so I'll make you one too x

Idontkowmyname

Your experience is sadly very typical of a scapegoat who has grown up within a narcissistic and otherwise abusive family structure. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and your sister is very much the golden child (as are her children with your kids being scapegoated). Adopting the grey rock technique as you are doing is in itself exhausting and may not help you in the long term.

You learnt a lot of damaging crap about relationships when you were growing up and no-one ever bothered to show you what a mutually loving and respectful relationship is like. And you still do not know what one of those is.

Your parents have absolutely let you down abjectly and it likely is not mere coincidence either that you are now in an abusive marriage yourself. You do not have to meekly do what your own abuser of a mother has done - i.e put up and shut up. She on some level gets what she wants out of that relationship and that is also why she has stayed.

Theirs is a complex and dysfunctional dance of codependency. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic or abusive as they are or are otherwise discarded.

You will get further support here on MN if you reach out in the Relationships (not AIBU); I would also urge you to contact Womens Aid and the Rights of Women organisations. If you can get to a Boots chemist many of them now have consultation rooms in which domestic violence victims can access support too. What legal advice if any have you sought to date?. You need this urgently.

Your mother was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed. Your sister is likely to be a carbon copy of mum too.

How old are your children?. it may well be that as they get older and make their own friends, their cousins will feature far less in their lives. It is not a given anyway that they and their cousins will always be best friends. I would stay well away from your sister and children as well as your mother. Your children probably do not like their cousins very much, let alone adore them.

It is your role to protect your children from such malign influences like them and for that matter their own father. You need to rebuild your life without these abusive people in it.

Your children will also pick up if they have not already on how you as their mother are treated by these people i.e. like dirt. Show them properly that the only acceptable abuse in a a relationship is NONE. You may find no contact is a step too far currently but you have every right to live your life free from being abused by your parents, sister and your H.

The expression ‘you can never win’ is so true. I was urged to stand up to my mother by those who did not know her well enough. Standing up to her was just what she wanted. It fed the fire of her anger. She was so articulate that she would have 50 barbs for one of mine. Then there was the, taking to her bed, as I was so awful I made her ill.

I am so lucky that I have a close and loving relationship with my (now middle-aged) children. I loved them so much, but lived with daily fear that when they grew up, they would not like me. She cast a long dark shadow over my whole life. She still does even though she has been dead 5 years.

If I had gone no contact with her, I would have been made to suffer. All of my friends and family thought she was wonderful. . Even my own children who have witnessed her cruelty were tolerant of her. I feel that if I spoke the truth about her, I was not truly believed.

I don’t know why I am posting really. I can’t give any advice as I was her whipping boy for 70 years. I wish there was some magic formula that could make you forget what life was like.

@FLOrenze - there was a magic formula, you created it by having a warm loving relationship with your children. I understand the trauma of the memories, it’s painful to think of all the manipulation and fear. Do things for yourself to affirm yourself, it’s never too late to seek some healing. But you broke the spell, no doubt.

Hi all, I pop on here from time to time (maybe a couple of times a year) promise I’ll read through everything and join in as it feels unfair to ask for support and not get to know other peoples stories and offer the same but it’s all a bit overwhelming so I disappear again.

I’ve very recently gone NC with my family and am also having my first lot of therapy for childhood sexual abuse and other narc mother related stuff.

I wanted to ask, to those if you who’ve been through therapy, how did you feel between sessions? I’m feeling incredibly defensive and over sensitive to everything. My DH suffers with health anxiety and the lockdown has really been difficult, I would usually understand his moods etc because of this But I know I’m reacting to things in ways I wouldn’t ordinarily. Everything feels like a personal attack at the moment even though I know it’s not. (Nothing serious) Is this a normal reaction to going NC as a result of families actions against me or the therapy? I’m feeling constantly on edge.

Hi! I don’t want to address you by username as it feels oddly aggressive, I didn’t even realise we could have swearwords for a username :)

Personally my initial reaction to going NC was enormous relief, and I felt safer for a few weeks afterwards. It might be the therapy - all therapy has the potential to be triggering, even when it’s good and working, and it’s not necessarily always the right fit for you. I have had counselling, CBT and been in a DBT group, the CBT was ages ago, the DBT group was generally helpful, although there were a few weeks when there was a self-confessed narcissist there who really upset me as he would talk about how he liked to make his wife cry and shouted at one of the other participants one time. The counsellor I think just wasn’t very good. But ask yourself are you getting anything from it than just someone to talk to about something that hurts to bring up, by the sounds of it? There are good therapists out there, and good therapies, but in my opinion the idea that just talking to someone about things, especially traumatic things, will make it all better is completely bonkers, it can make it worse! I used to speak to my counsellor about abusive things my mother did when I was living with them, and she would say things like “but that’s not right” and it drove me absolutely up the wall! The DBT group, on the other hand, wasn’t about bringing up past traumas but about coping with daily life and I found that was actually helpful, we would do a bit of mindfulness, learn skills and so on. Sorry, this is a very lengthy ramble and I am quite keen to find a counsellor to deal with my PTSD and complete inability to have good relationships, so I’m not finished with therapy myself!
Also with going NC, it’s a really massive thing. Even if you hate your parents and they have treated you badly, they are still your parents, when all is said and done. There will probably be a lot of grief for the good parents you might have had and then stress at dealing with societal expectations about how you should deal with your parents. Personally, I’m trying to deal with mental health problems caused by living with my parents and their violence and rows and manipulation and control, but whenever I’m in crisis the default is, call your parents. It’s just the way the world is, unfortunately.
Sorry this was such an essay!(

Hi Shitonthebloodything I don’t think you have to catch up on the thread if you can’t face it, compounding your own trauma by reading other people’s is hard if you’re feeling low.

Good therapy helps you to visit all the feelings you’ve been avoiding, so in your case it’s going to be awakening some intense fear and helplessness I would imagine? The best thing you can do is talk about that in your next session - tell your therapist and maybe work on suggestions for supporting yourself through those feelings in the moment. Maybe keep a notebook handy and jot it down ( eg in the supermarket, felt tearful and panicky when someone came too close).

People who have suffered abuse have been forced to abandon their boundaries, finding those boundaries and acknowledging that others who were supposed to nurture you have hurt you is hard work, it takes a great deal out of you. Give yourself some breathing space after your sessions.

Therapy works well for people when it’s used in conjunction with other practices, an activity that makes you feel good about yourself, particularly if you have to focus on it, a sport or a hobby. It’s really tough at the moment when so much is unavailable, you might have to get imaginative to find whatever works for you.

Good luck with it though, and be kind to yourself, you deserve to feel better.

Thanks so much for your replies. My username is a reference to the show Friday Night Dinner as I was watching it when I signed up

I have a session this morning and I’ll definitely talk about this I think a lot of my anger and frustration is being misdirected at the moment and things I’d usually think nothing of have me feeling so low and defensive that it’s almost self pitying which I cannot stand.

I’m generally a very closed book, I feel like I’m just starting to open up a bit with the therapy. It’s over the phone so thats a barrier in itself but I think it will help. I think the combination of lockdown, my husband and children’s anxieties and the therapy as well as going no contact is just so much to deal with all at once. We’re throwing a house move into the mix too so my brain is at full capacity but I’m still not achieving anything as my industry isn’t open yet.
I have taken up a new hobby which I love so that’s helped immensely I’m trying to zone out every now and then and focus just on that.

I definitely don’t have the feeling of relief yet after going NC it’s all very recent and I’ve not blocked my golden child sister Or my submissive dad yet it all feels a bit raw even though i was low contact for years. I’m grieving it I suppose.

I think going NC is different for everyone depending on your circumstances. I’m a year on and I feel guilt, sadness, anger and relief in a regular basis, as well as flashbacks of both good and awful memories.

Hating the feeling of self-pity is really relatable for me, but I know it’s important to allow yourself to feel compassion and positive regard for yourself, it’s not a weakness despite all the messages you’ve been given throughout your upbringing.

I remember a point during therapy when I started to be able to have compassion for myself as a child. For me it was about acknowledging the fact that I was a child in that situation, not an adult. I felt guilty that I had not always stood up to her, that I sometimes felt close to her, and that I stayed at home past the age of 16 - I felt like, if she was really that bad, would you have done all of that? But as a child you need to have a connection to the people around you, you seek it with whoever is there, whether they're good or bad to you. I believed a view of the world that she presented, as somewhere scary where I would fail, because that's what she served up to me from before I could speak. I think I was conditioned to believe that my emotions were just not as important, not as authentic as hers and that I didn't know what I needed, only she did, that the things I wanted for my life were just not important. For me, and it's not the same for everyone, I had this little voice inside me going "fuck this, I can't listen to her shit anymore, throw her out" and for years I'd ignored it and got on with what I felt was my job of taking care of my mother's feelings. The start of recovery for me was to realise that that wee voice was my authentic self, that listening to it would be good for me and that yes, things really were as simple as that. Sorry that's just a bit about me... I don't want to come on the thread and say "this and this and this is how you will start to feel if you get some recovery" because I don't know how you will feel, but I hope that some of that is familiar to people. And I would just say self-pity gets a bad rap. Or what it actually is - self compassion. Compassion for others starts with compassion for the self.

toomuchtooold, how long did that exactly take? I’ve never managed to have anything but utter contempt and desire to harm myself as a child, which sounds awful and sorry if it’s triggering to anyone. But I started hurting myself at the age of 8 and have always regarded myself with just viciousness, and I don’t know how to turn that around. I have a feeling that DBT didn’t solve the problem for me because it’s about reducing suffering and I just don’t think I ought to! Sorry if I shouldn’t have put that into words.

@Piggypiggyoinkoink Hi - sorry I'm a bit late, but your childhood sounds very similar to mine and my mother never showed any affection (actions or words) until a couple of years ago when all her emails started beginning with "Darling yellowlemon" and ending with "Lots of love Mother xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx".

It really freaked me out and made me feel quite ill tbh. It also made me question a tiny bit whether I had been wrong about her all these years. No chance.

Anyway, the last time I saw her which was about a year ago she suddenly announced out of the blue that she had bought some stupid rip off funeral plan and had put me down as the contact to deal with everything when she died. There had be no discussion with me beforehand and it was one of the final triggers that made me go full NC.

Just expecting me to be her servant even when she was dead, despite us having had no meaningful relationship ever.

So, as others have said your mother could indeed be buttering you up. Because it's the only reason I can think of that my mother started doing all the kissy-kissy stuff in her emails to me.

@CeciledeVolanges

Forgive me for saying this, but I suspect you need long term therapy.

You sound like you need to unlock things a long way in order to forgive the child you for things that were never your fault.

I have had psychotherapy for 8 months now and I'm only just getting there.

Find a therapist with experience in childhood neglect and see how you get on.

It is worth every penny!

I felt horrible between my appointments for the first 6-8 weeks and then I uncovered some strong feelings about a rather small event. After that things got easier x

I know I need long-term therapy, I’m looking for a therapist right now! I’m feeling a bit uncomfortable about the fact that I can’t afford it and am going to have to cope with whatever comes up completely alone but I think it’s got to be done...

Cecile that sounds awful. I agree with you and Ballet, you need to do therapy that is longer term to deal with such deep seated feelings, and it needs to be someone with experience in childhood trauma and someone you feel comfortable with. I did a bit of therapy, not much, I should go back, I probably won't - with me the recovery I got came from reading - Dorothy Rowe and that book The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk I both found good.

Cecile you’re not alone, you’re here talking.

Hello all! long time no speak and I'm popping in quickly to send love to all and hoping that some will be happier without the contact from the toxics and hoping those less fortunate will be coping.

Cecile there is a way through this, it takes time and a lot of effort. of course better if you have money, but its not impossible. there are charities that help with psychotherapy costs for all sorts of things,

Keep talking here, look for support groups and take whatever free/cheap support you can get! You are most definitely not alone!

@yellowlemon thanks for sharing your experience. It’s so disconcerting isn’t it? I think if she actually said it to my face I wouldn’t be able to hide my feelings. Which might not be a bad thing. So far it’s just been written down though. To be honest I’m surprised there hasn’t been comment made on me ending correspondence with just my name. Then again, maybe she’s realising that I am at best, indifferent?

She called last night, and it was 3/4 of an hour all about her. She’s fed up of lockdown now don’t ya know . I pointed out that as she has been going between two houses for most of it, she wasn’t exactly having the real lockdown experience. That went down well . Especially as she knows damn well I am right, and she is in the wrong.

Also, to everyone else on this thread - my heart breaks that there are so many who have been so badly treated by the people who should protect and love them unconditionally.

@Piggypiggyoinkoink Ha - well done you for pointing out about lockdown. As I got braver with my mother I started to get a bit belligerent and it felt so good.

I remember one time during her long, long phone conversations she started banging on about people who use the NHS who hadn't paid income tax (the unemployed, single mothers, brown people - basically anyone she looked down at her nose at).

I let her ramble for a bit and then said quite snippily - well you've never paid any income tax but you've been quite happy to use the NHS all your life.

Of course that was completely different.

Re your last point - I've been astonished to come on here and find so many people who've had similar experiences. It's such a shame that it's something that's so taboo nobody dares discuss it and therefore people keep it as a secret with all the shame and guilt that goes with it.

If we were able to admit these things go on and not everybody has good parents despite the veneer, then maybe we wouldn't be so damaged as we could get the help we need much earlier in our lives. It's interesting that many of us come to the realisation that something was very wrong with our childhood when we're in our 30s and 40s.

to everyone on this thread as well. Thank you all, there are so many amazing people here.

I apologise for yet another one in my ridiculous parade of posts recently. I’ve had a pile of unopened letters and cards from my birthday a month ago and just opened them. First of all the whole lot are making me cry because my friends are too good and generous for sticking with me, the ones that have, anyway, and my grandparents. My mum also got my grandmother to address a parcel and inside it said she missed me.
I have just found a really good therapist for some long-term therapy as recommended :) but don’t see him again until next week and I just feel so conflicted about all of this, but most of all guilty. Does anyone else deal with massive guilt? I feel like I’ve lost the good part of me, although at other times I know it’s people-pleasing.
Sorry, I am going to find somewhere else to dump all my feelings but I’m completely isolated at the moment and finding it really hard. Maybe don’t even worry about replying as I feel a bit better having written this out. I hope everyone else is well.

Great news on the therapy Cecile. Please believe you’re not ridiculous, you’re struggling with a lot of emotions.

As I got braver with my mother I started to get a bit belligerent and it felt good
In hindsight I can see that if I'd been able to be brave and speak plainly to my mother when I was younger we could have had a better relationship
I'm past caring now, I also suspect that the hatred engendered by her treatment of me would have ended in me being abusive to her had I've been able to get control of the situation

What I'm trying to say is, I think she instincty knew that because she'd been so horrible to me if she let up, if there came a time when I no longer felt intimidated by her then I would come gunning for her.