But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Ulterego - I sometimes felt like that, but of course then I realise is that she never 'trained' me to speak plainly to her. She trained me to be terrified of her and mind my Ps&Qs so I could never have an honest conversation with her about anything.

I remember after I left home and if fellow students were struggling with course work, or boys, or friendships, or anything, they'd phone their mum to blow off some steam or ask for advice and listening to them speaking to their mum like it was an adult on the other end of the phone I literally couldn't get my head around.

My mother once moaned to one of my uncles that she didn't know anything about me or what I got up to. Even he knew it was because she never asked, wasn't interested, and if I did tell her something it had to be presented to her in a way that wouldn't upset her.

I hope that makes sense. As I've observed about her before it takes an awful lot of hard work to end up that alone.

@Ulterego And when I say 'upset' I don't mean it would have made her sad. I mean it would have horrified her, or disappointed her, or something that would have upset her narrow minded view of the world.

I know exactly yellowlemon, words were guarded, every conversation carefully managed. The times I slipped up and regretted it.

I'm 28yo, 2 DC, a loving DH. Today I feel really lonely and sad.

I have never had an easy relationship with my mother but that has been getting worse over the last couple of years. It took me a while to understand all the gaslighting I experience, the over criticism and the EA. I felt so wrong for so long, and even now I feel wrong: ugly, weak, selfish, stupid etc.. I look at myself in the mirror and can only hear her criticism of my face, my hair, the way I walk, yawn or talk. When I was a teen I developed an eating disorder because of it. She threatened to hit me until I passed out and I was so scared I somehow managed to stop it.

I have a sister who is perfect and can do no wrong, and whathever fuckup she has ever done is somehow my fault (she's an adult). She's come here to visit 2 years ago (I paid for plane tickets, and spent days taking her shopping and cooking. My mother told me, months later, that I was a terrible person, never called my sister, and that she and DSis spent a lot of time talking about it. When I told her that she had actually come to visit at my expenses she refused to believe me, and said I had fabricated it.

She only believed my husband, and even then she talked about me as if I wasn't in the room. She was really horrible, gaslighting me, I had to show proof that I had purchased the tickets.

She is so critical of me that I have stopped communicating with her, my mental health is not good when I deal with her.

I don't want to visit her, and she's not contacting me either. I spent so much time to try and please her, so many years and she never liked me. The nicest thing she could tell my DH is :"Yeah, Somethingisamiss is ...different to us (meaning my dad, her and DSis)". I'm so sad, I miss a mum.

Hi @Somethingisamiss and welcome.

First up, you're not alone here. There are many, many people with similar stories to yours who will truly understand how you feel and why you feel like you do.

Take some time to read and don't be afraid to write lots. Nothing you post will be criticised or belittled, and you will be believed.

She trained me to be terrified of her
yep same here, whilst insisting that she was 'the best friend I'd ever have'
wtf eh!
it just pains me that I never gave her back the contempt that I received, then again decades of silence sends a pretty contemptuous message:)

@Somethingisamiss I'm so sorry you're feeling that way. It's natural to be sad because, although you've got a mother, you haven't got a real mum and never will have, through no fault of your own.
It's also important that she is wrong, it's not you that is wrong. Can you imagine ever treating your DCs as she has treated you? And I'm sure people around you don't treat you like that either.

[quote CeciledeVolanges]**@Somethingisamiss I'm so sorry you're feeling that way. It's natural to be sad because, although you've got a mother, you haven't got a real mum and never will have, through no fault of your own.
It's also important that she is wrong, it's not you that is wrong. Can you imagine ever treating your DCs as she has treated you? And I'm sure people around you don't treat you like that either.[/quote]
That’s a very valid point @CeciledeVolanges, we know we would never treat our dc the way we were treated.

It’s often the time when we have dc of our own, or have relationships that show us other family dynamics that highlight just how unhealthy our own family is.

As you say, none of this is OUR FAULT. People chose to abuse for their own reasons/excuses. It is never acceptable to be treated like this.

No Contact is the only way, you can’t win with these toxic people, so best not to even try. Save yourself, save your family, save everyone’s sanity and peace.

I think too it’s important for us to recognise that we don’t have the mother/family member we should have had, to understand it’s not our fault, it’s nothing we’ve done, and to process that at mourn that loss.

It is excruciating in terms of pain, but the sooner we forgive ourselves for giving up on the notion that we will ever have a healthy relationship with that person/persons the better. We can then start to heal.

Hi all...sorry to steamroll in! I'm a long time lurker, FTP to thread, name changed as for some reason I'm worried I'll be outed and mother will find out...don't know why I give a shit but seems to be a common theme when you have an abusive parent that you end up being more worried about their feelings than your own!

I've read posts about how some of you have managed to NC/LC and can only dream of this! Tried LC a few times and always get sucked in as mum is very much Jekyll&Hyde and when lovely she pulls me back in.

Unfortunately the woman is in my house currently as I stupidly thought I needed her help as I'm a FTM and with lockdown I panicked I wouldn't cope without her so invited her to stay for a little while as thought DP and me needed the help. Problem is, she's criticising everything and I'm a ball of anxiety...I'm winding wrong, holding him too much, I should be prioritising sleep more, feed him differently, put more layers on him, bath him every day, not spend so much money, should be getting out more (I had a EMCS with complications after)...she has been here for less than 48 hours :( I feel panicky that I'm stuck with her for at least a month...

Hi sleepymeadow
Hi Sleepymeadow

Hi Sleepymeadow

If this is how you feel after a mere 48 hours then a month plus of her is really going to do your own mental wellbeing no favours at all. I would be asking, no telling her, to leave personally with your partner also presenting a united front here. How can you be helped into asking her to leave?.

You do not need her nor her approval; you've merely been conditioned by her to think that you do. You will manage a lot better without her being around criticising your every parenting move re your child.

You will ultimately need to drop the rope she keeps on holding out to you along with letting go of all hope that she will change and or somehow become a decent mother to you. It won't happen. She could well ruin your early days with your child if you do not act decisively or now.

You can make different arrangements, you thank her for her help so far, but actually you’re coping better than you thought so don’t want to put her to too much inconvenience etc and “H will drop you back home at the weekend. It was extremely kind of you to offer your help mum, but I can’t in good consciousness put you to this effort etc... no, it’s not negotiable, I’ve made my mind up, go and rest at home, see friends etc...” 😉

Get h to sit next to you and back you all the way, once it’s done it’s done. All you have to do is repeat what’s already been said and hold your line/nerve.

If she catches you without dh, you say, no, dh and I have already thought of (whatever she’s trying to come up with to stay) we’ve got that covered.

Give her zero information but say it’s all done, and don’t forget you’re a grown woman who owes nobody any explanation at all anyway

You got this!!

It’s normal to need and want your mum when you’re a new mum yourself (congratulations by the way!) and the way things are currently you’re bound to feel extra vulnerable. Mothers and daughters who have a good relationship can find it challenging, some have very different ideas about what babies need.

However if your relationship is such that she’s making you feel upset and unsure then she’s not helping is she? What about your partner, how does he get along with her? Where’s you dad? Does he feel ok about her being away for a month?

Were you hoping this would mark a change in your relationship?

The problem is if you had no boundaries with her to start with now is a really tough time to decide you want them, it sounds like she’s gone into hyperdrive, reinforcing her role in the family and deciding what’s appropriate for you.

There’s no easy answer here. I’d start to put into place a plan for her to get home, you’ve realised a month is too long, it’s not fair on anyone. You need to get sorted in a routine that you can cope with by yourselves.

In the meantime you have to push back a bit where you can, but quite frankly I’m not sure it’s possible, it’ll just turn into a war. I know because I’ve been there, I just capitulated.

A new baby is a new chapter. Decide how you want it to be.

I think @AttilaTheMeerkat’s comment about ruining the first says with the baby are very valid. PND is a real risk when the mother is under strain and that can have lasting consequences

Days not says!

I agree, MzHz and Attila the fact that you’re feeling frightened that she might read about how you’re feeling is revealing, you’re clearly not allowed to show how you really feel to her. What happens when you do?

I’m not sure I ever did, I’d always make sure things were right for her and would be very upset when I got it ‘wrong’. It meant I seldom though I knew what I was doing and was very insecure when I thought I was being judged. I realise part of thinking I couldn’t cope was that I’d been conditioned to think that way.

Oh wow...thank you so much for the replies!!! I was in a bit of a tizz this morning and really needed to get things off my chest so thank you all. There's quite a big back story but I'll try to answer succinctly and not ramble on!

Luckily baby is a few weeks old so no ruining of the first days but it has made me second guess what I was doing. I have much younger siblings so I'm not oblivious on how to care for a newborn and M knows this as it's her children I looked after!

M lives quite far away so it's sadly not a case of just driving her home...also if I pack her off I don't know if I can deal with her ignoring me for weeks at the moment. She has already commented that if we 'clash' she'll be heading straight home...by clash I've taken that as me disagreeing with something she says. Her tactics when she is not happy with me is to stonewall and become passive aggressive for days...that's probably why I'm so worried about saying anything as I currently can't deal with that reaction. I'm very much a deal with things head on person whilst she'll bury her head in the sand and pretend it's not happening...you never get any resolution to any problem with her and this causes me huge anxiety.

DP was not entirely thrilled with her being here as he said 'you don't know which M you're getting'...sadly the over-bearing, bitter and jealous M has arrived rather than the compassionate, caring and understanding one which she is very much capable of being! I have in the past received omissions that's she has not been the best M and she would try harder but she always slips back into this mode eventually and we end up at square one again.

When it comes to her own relationship...my DSD was quite happy for her to come as she has been miserable/upset apparently that she couldn't be here. This is despite her showing none of that when I was talking to her for the last few months...if anything she's been quite distant and cold which in itself caused me huge upset.

I think I'm going to have to suck it and see...I'm an idiot for allowing her to be here 1. For so long and 2. At all considering how's she been the last few months...I just didn't want to stop her from spending time with her grand-child and I thought once she got here, I'd have 'nice' M.

*@Fanthorpe

I’m not sure I ever did, I’d always make sure things were right for her and would be very upset when I got it ‘wrong’. It meant I seldom though I knew what I was doing and was very insecure when I thought I was being judged. I realise part of thinking I couldn’t cope was that I’d been conditioned to think that way.*

This rings very true but also not. M has always told me to travel, have a career and be independent. However, the response I get when I now I've done those things is inconsistent...shes told me on more than one occasion how proud she is of me for what I've achieved...but other times she's had the arse because I've bought myself something nice or booked a holiday...she'll then make comments about how she hasn't been away or can't afford to spend money...the jealousy comes out and she just can't be happy for me. She's tried to ruin three holidays in the past by sending me abuse because she was jealous.

Part of me wishes she was just 100% arsehole as at least it be easier to LC/NC but when she actually shows me genuine affection and says things to build my confidence it completely throws me!

Your mother should still leave your home, do not merely suck it and see. That is you giving yourself permission to prevaricate and do nothing re her again.

This nice and then not from her is all part of the nice/nasty cycle and is very much one of the modus operandi of an abusive person.

She wants you to remain an extension of her own self, you as her daughter look good to her acquaintances (such women do not have friends) and she can crow to them about your successes and how supportive of you she has been (because you cannot cope in her eyes).

She was also not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she won't be or become a decent sort of grandmother to your child either. She will harm your child in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have yourself been harmed.

I would urge you to address now and properly your fear, obligation and guilt with regards to your mother because you have this in spades. Its stopping you also from making good relationship decisions that protect you and your own family.

You do realise that the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is NONE?.

@MzHz

I think too it’s important for us to recognise that we don’t have the mother/family member we should have had, to understand it’s not our fault, it’s nothing we’ve done, and to process that at mourn that loss.

It is excruciating in terms of pain, but the sooner we forgive ourselves for giving up on the notion that we will ever have a healthy relationship with that person/persons the better. We can then start to heal.

This hits the nail on the head...I watch my DP with his DM and I cry that I've never experiences that from my own M. The worse thing is my DMIL has picked up on this now and she's so affectionate and tactile with me that it makes it even more sad that someone else's mother can do this but my own can't?

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Your mother should still leave your home, do not merely suck it and see. That is you giving yourself permission to prevaricate and do nothing re her again.

This nice and then not from her is all part of the nice/nasty cycle and is very much one of the modus operandi of an abusive person.

She wants you to remain an extension of her own self, you as her daughter look good to her acquaintances (such women do not have friends) and she can crow to them about your successes and how supportive of you she has been (because you cannot cope in her eyes).

She was also not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she won't be or become a decent sort of grandmother to your child either. She will harm your child in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have yourself been harmed.

I would urge you to address now and properly your fear, obligation and guilt with regards to your mother because you have this in spades. Its stopping you also from making good relationship decisions that protect you and your own family.

If anyone else was in this position then I'd be asking them wtf they were doing and tell them the same. However I'm going to be completely truthful...I'm not going to send her home as I know I just can't deal with the fall out. I need to figure out how I emotionally protect myself for the next few weeks...so far she has been nothing but amazing with the baby but DP and me have already had the conversation about what happens if she does to our child what she has done to me and that would be the cut off.

Funnily enough, her own M was very similar to her on occasions growing up. Whilst I saw glimmers of it growing up, I was insanely close with my Nan and she never made me feel like this. Although my Nan was far less emotionally stilted than M.

If we clash she'll be heading straight home
she thinks that this is a threat and she thinks that she can hold this over you
it's not a threat it's a gift, she's telling you how to get rid of her....provoke a confrontation so she goes away and gives you the cold shoulder for an extended period of time, if she starts ignoring you this is what you want ...get rid of her
come on Sleepy think about it, who the f* does she think she is treating you like that when you're an adult, warning you that you are not allowed to disagree with her
I did this with my mother decades ago I criticized her and she reacted so badly that she cut herself out of my life so all I had to do was continue with that, these people are idiots it's very easy to make them shoot themselves in the foot you just need to be strategic 🙂

I need to figure out how I emotionally protect myself
think about what you're saying here, at a time when you are vulnerable and in need of TLC you have allowed someone in your home who is a danger to your emotional well-being
She tried to ruin three holidays in the past by sending me abuse because she was jealous
Imagine how angry jealous and resentful she will be when she sees the bond between you and your child, she can't even bear to see you enjoying a holiday she will hate it if you are happy as a mother and she will do what she can to put you back down so that she has a better life than you do

My mother did the same sleepy, but everything I achieved was thrown back at me, because she’s never had the chance to do anything or go anywhere, in her mind. (She very good at telling stories though)

The nice mum makes you feel so grateful that you’d do anything to keep her sunny, but the black clouds are never far away.

I understand your feelings about not upsetting the applecart, it sounds an awful prospect. She’ll never change though, she’ll get worse in fact. Read up all you can about developing and holding boundaries. But bear in mind it’s almost impossible to have a healthy relationship with people like your mother.