But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@CarrieMoonbeams I know I’m a day or two late, but just wanted to say that I totally get feeling a bit weird about Father’s Day.

My story sounds quite similar to yours. Like you I was a reaonably good kid, but was always told I was a little shit.

I went NC with my dad about 20 years ago. The last few years it kind of feels like Father’s day is something that happens to other people. When I see posts on social media of people gushing about their amazing dads, I do sometimes wonder what it was like for those people to have a dad that wasn’t trying to make their lives a living hell. But weirdly I never ask myself what it would have been like if I had been in that situation. I guess I’ve somehow made peace with the fact that that just wasn’t my reality.

I think it helped me a lot that I realised not too long ago that my dad is a narcissist. It made me realise that it’s absolutely not my fault that I was abused. It also made me realise that walking away from that situation was the right thing to do. I think it’s a lot harder when you are left with lots of questions about why the abuse happened. All you can do is remind yourself that there isn’t always a logical reason for other people’s behaviour. Some people are just messed up. It’s their problem, not yours

@Ulterego I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s exactly the kind of thing she’d do.

Her mother (my wonderful
Nana) always wanted to go into a care home rather than live with any of her kids, and my mother was always horrified by that.

Food for thought definitely - thank you!

Piggy you may find that she particularly tries to engage you on issues relating to her health or things that she wants you to do for her.
In the case of my own parent they are are reasonably well-off capable and organised, I would expect them to have a plan for their old age and if the plan involved me being a carer I would expect them to consult me first, whereupon I would say 'I am sorry I'm not able to do that, perhaps you could consider sheltered accommodation?'
It now appears that the plan was to continue living 100s of miles away but subtly manoeuvre me into feeling obligated towards them🙄

Piggy

It does indeed sound like your mother is trying to butter you up into becoming her carer. Do not fall for such "pleasantries"; she is still very much a wolf in sheeps clothing and she has not changed since your own childhood.

Oh the attempts at involvement have already started the geographic distance is a godsend in that respect. She’s perfectly capable physically and mentally so I feel no guilt there. Plus, she ignores what the medical profession tells her if it’s not what she wants to hear, and I have made it clear that if she won’t do as recommended she needn’t look to me for help when it all comes crashing down. One of the few times I have really let her have it, and she was very shocked.

Needless to say, not been mentioned since...

HR have just got in touch to tell me that my mother called my office to complain that she hadn’t heard from me and was worried. She called my job. I started crying on the phone. Sorry, but I just don’t know how to deal with this any more.

Oh bloody hell @CeciledeVolanges. What did work do when she called and what did they say to you?

You are quite within your rights to let HR, switchboard etc know that they are not to pass on information to her or put her through to you. We used to get this a lot on switchboard. Sooner or later the person calling got fed up.

My next concern if she knows where you live, is that she would contact the police and get them to do a welfare check. But this might not be a bad thing as they will soon tell her to leave you alone if they are appraised of the situation by yourself.

@Fanthorpe - it does help clarify things seeing it written down and then coming back to it. I have decided that it is my fear of rejection which has surfaced. Mother rejected me easily and apparently without thought.

Sister decided I should not be in touch with our parents, that they did not need me in their lives. She has rejected me by virtue of getting involved in issues which, whilst in part caused by her, are none of her business. The issues are all around how our parents have treated us differently and that is not altogether her fault even though she must have been aware and chose to take advantage.

I emailed Father on Sunday. A short message wishing him well since I hadn't heard from him since before the funeral. I got back a perfunctory one thanking me and letting me know he was in a bubble with my sister. And I think that sums up how I feel this will move forward. So I am pulling back. Right now it feels like I have all the work to do if there is going to be any kind of reconciliation and it's a 2 way street.

I can tell myself it is early days, he has just lost his Mother and his Wife in a short space of time. But the truth is, if he had wanted to know me - to not reject me - he had ample time before Covid, before Mother died, to be in touch of his own accord. He either chose to fall in line with Mother's wishes, or knowing how stubborn he is, he felt the same way as she did.

So I shall continue as I am. Father has my email and can get in touch if he wishes. He knows where I live. And if Sister can bring herself to apologise for her vile emails, maybe our children can have their cousins in their lives.

@Crazzzycat, thanks for replying, and yes you're right, it does sound as though we had similar childhoods. That's a good way to think about it, that other people's reality just wasn't yours, and - most importantly - it wasn't your fault.

@minisoksmakehardwork and @CeciledeVolanges, I don't have any words of wisdom because I'm just ploughing my way through my emotions just now (and crying again!) but I'm reading and absorbing everything, and wish you both well.

For everyone on this thread though, I feel so sad for the wee kids we once were, who deserved nothing less than love and kindness.

A friend of mine once said to me "don't let your past determine your future" and she's right, of course, but it's almost impossible when you've had an abusive childhood. Much love to all of you, and to the wee kids we all were x

Carrie, it’s very difficult but it’s not impossible. Don’t give up - you’re doing really well to sit with what you’re feeling now but to say it’s impossible to move on is giving too much power to people who don’t deserve it, as they’ve already done a lot of harm. It’s not just about strength, or optimism, or anything like that, but there are ways to get better and start a new chapter, I’m sure.

I’m still struggling with guilt, a lot, at the moment. My parents have completely ignored my desire for some space, at least, and have continued to get in touch with me on every channel, while other family members chastise me for failing to be in touch enough. I’m sitting in my single room surrounded by unopened letters and a couple of birthday presents which my nature is telling me to be grateful for and glad about, and my conditioning is telling me I’m an ungrateful little shit for not opening immediately and writing thank you letters - trying to get up courage to do it now - but at the same time I’ve retreated from so many areas of life because I just don’t want to hear from them and they are still sending things to my inbox, social media and house, and I can’t get to the courage to block them, or the toughness. Does anyone have any experience of this sort of feeling?

@CeciledeVolanges you sound really stuck in the moment.

You’ve made the connection between your family’s behaviour and it’s effect in your life and your emotions but you’ve been unable to move out of their gravity.

The Fear that they won’t leave you alone is so strong.

Why would you say thank you for things you’ve made it clear you don’t want? It’s the Obligation.

You’re worried about how they’ll react, that you’ll make them upset and angry - the Guilt.

I’d say the hundreds of people on the previous pages have felt just like you do now, paralysed by sadness and fear. It was bred into us.

Deep breath. You can throw it all in the bin.

Minisoks I might be barking up the wrong tree here entirely but just reading your latest updates the first thing that occurs to me is that your father has just replaced one boss with another. They get something out of these relationships, these men - your dad is probably struggling with managing his own emotions without your mother there, so now he is going to orbit your sister. Just let them get on with it.

Cecile my honest advice would be to block them on everything, and block all their flying monkeys as well. Be nice about it if you want. Say you're taking some time out from social media and just trying to get your balance back or something and that you hope they therefore understand why you won't be contactable. Or just block them. They will think things about you, but sure they have all sorts of unpleasant and wrong opinions about you now so how much worse can it get? And once you can't hear any of it... you will be able to start to feel calmer and get some perspective on it all.

The hardest road I think is the one you're trying to take right now, where you attempt to negotiate some boundaries with them but stay in some contact. That's the kind of thing that works with basically reasonable people, but not with abusive people. It just makes them angrier and means that they express their anger in a much more extreme way through the small number of outlets left to them. If you go the full block, the anger goes up to like gale force 10... but you can't hear it. Which is entirely as it should be, because you're not to blame for it, and even if you had done something wrong, their reaction is unreasonable and not something you should feel obliged to witness.

I agree with toomuchtooold being LC only works if you have boundaries of steel in place. Being half in half out is really tough because you’re always expecting the next encounter. If you’ve got a strategy like grey rocking you might find it easier, but the question is why would you want that sort of relationship?

Thanks everyone for getting back so quickly, I’m completely isolated and don’t really have anyone else so it’s really appreciated.
I’m not in contact with the abusive people/abuser and enabler but they have continued to send letters, which I can’t block, really frequently, they know where I live and work and they take absolutely no notice when I ask them not to be in contact, it sounds really pathetic but just the letters and the emails even if I don’t read them make me upset and uncomfortable.
The real problem is that I don’t want to lose touch with my grandparents because I love them and care about them, and they haven’t abused me, they just don’t get it. They assume I’m going to speak to my parents again soon and it’s just a passing spat. They are all three getting on in years and I just don’t want to blank them or cut them out because they don’t generally do me any harm. It’s just that they, along with mental health services, teachers, even friends in the past, it feels like they are just going to pass me back to my parents and I don’t think I could bear that again. But I also don’t want to miss my grandparents dying. And I need some people, nobody can survive long completely alone.
I’m too much of a coward to even speak to my parents to tell them I don’t want to hear from them, and I couldn’t begin to explain things like PTSD to my grandparents.
You’re right, I am stuck. I’m just not sure how to do it alone. I really don’t have anyone else and I don’t think there’s really much of a point to me as I’ve been created and raised to fulfil the role I was doing in my family and I’m not useful or wanted anywhere else. Sorry yet again for monopolising the thread! And thank you everyone for being so helpful.

@FourDecades

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have been a bit under the weather so have not been online so much. Regarding your question I was told (by the family) that my AM gets the income (I called it interest but not sure if that was correct term) until she dies but cannot touch the capital investments. Once she dies (and it all goes through probate I suppose) then the capital and the income it generates will come to me. I have now contacted a totally independent solicitor who appears to be willing to help me whilst also avoiding doing anything that might trigger repercussions from the family. She says she will find out the details of the trust and then explain to me what it all means and what my options are. Haven't heard back from her yet, but I hope to know more soon. Fingers and toes are crossed!

You're still looking for the correct form of words that will get your parents to behave reasonably, Cecile, and I don't think there is one. Abusive people don't stop being abusive because you ask them to. You can't change their behaviour, but you can change your own. You could block their addresses on your email, and make a promise to yourself to bin their letters without opening. They will get bored eventually, if they stop getting a reaction out of you.

How would it be with your grandparents if you were to focus your conversation away from the topic altogether? If they bring it up, you could deflect by saying "oh never mind about that, how is xyz doing" or "I don't want to spoil the visit talking about all that unpleasantness, did you see x on the telly last night" or whatever? It may never be possible to get them to see your parents as you see them, but you could be having a pleasant time with them, which is a much better use of all your time.

@CeciledeVolanges you must post as much as you like, especially if you’re feeling isolated.

Families loom large when they’re dysfunctional, they take up a lot of headspace. Minimising their influence can give you space for new feelings and experiences.

@toomuchtooold - you are probably right. Even though father has always appeared, to me at least, to be quite domineering, I think a lot of it is learned helplessness. But he has appeared so to me as I was emotionally the weakest person in the house so growing up veered between being protective and being domineering. Likely as a way to deal with the dynamics that I wasn't yet aware of as to who wore the trousers in the house. With sister being closed to mother, naturally she would take mother's place. You are right to suggest leaving them to get on with it. I am redirecting my attention to building relationships with other members of my family who I have not been in touch with for far too long.

I have not emailed father since last Sunday. It is quite telling I guess that he has not been in touch either, waiting for me to be in contact to respond rather than instigating contact himself.

I think that's a great idea to make more contact to other members of the family. You want to have time with people that are actually going to enrich your life. Not the emotional vampires we grew up with...

@CeciledeVolanges - it sounds like you are stuck in a rut of knowing what you want, what you need, but not knowing how to achieve it.

It is OK to block emails or set up a rule to send them straight to the junk or trash folders. It is OK to put letters straight in the bin (rip them up if you think you will be tempted to fish them out). You will no doubt recognise handwritten envelopes. My parents started sending cards recorded delivery and with a cheque in for the children's birthdays and xmas. I asked on here at the time about sending them back. Ultimately we didn't because we were rightly advised that this would just be further engaging with them and that was not something we wanted - creating an obligation that because the children had received a gift from them that their grandparents should then be able to see them. We simply binned the cards and destroyed the cheques.

Maybe without dependents it is more difficult to break that chain. I thought of how my children would feel if things continued as they were when going NC with my parents. Ultimately I removed them as much as myself from continuing with a dysfunctional relationship. And I have a very supportive husband too, which has helped when I have had wobbles. He has allowed me to discuss my thoughts and feelings without telling me what he thinks I should be doing. He supported my upset and my anger over mother dying, attending the funeral. And I have my amazing in-laws as well. They treat me like a daughter and I know that I am truly loved for who I am by them, not by what position in the family I fill.

@CeciledeVolanges When you are isolated, it makes it so much easier to present it as you are the problem if you stand up for yourself.

I recently got in touch with my mother when lockdown started and my siblings when lockdown started. I had not been in contact with her since she had my dd13 in tears on her birthday & DD15 listening to her launching into swearing abuse at me over the phone not being home when she lied about travelling to our house.

It took two months and my siblings stopped answering her phone calls so I was dealing with multiple daily calls, , told i was lazy, being shamed for my siblings not calling and spending over £200 in what she needed. When I called them out and said I was not being her carer, I was apparently an alcoholic and mentally unstable because I didn't play my role. If that was true, (one of my kids has SEN so we have regular support in place) then they are even more disgusting for leaving my kids in that situation. I can honestly say I have no emotions for them whatsoever and at 41 they can all FOTTFSOF

Hi everyone, I’ve been a long time lurker on the stately homes Thread after the penny dropped a few years ago. Recent things have flared up again for me Emotionally and I’ve decided to try counselling to try and build my own self worth, cope with my anger and because Im terrified of this affecting my relationship with my own child. Can anyone who has benefitted from counselling recommend a type of counselling or approach that’s most effective?

Hi Gyoza, thank you for posting! If you’re traumatised, just going over it with a regular counsellor will, in my experience, make it worse. Try CBT or DBT if you can afford it?

Everyone else: I called my dad. My boyfriend told me I was abusive and dumped me. I sort of don’t want to be alive any more. I was manipulative. I just wanted to speak to him so much.

Thankyou, I just need to find a way to deal with the anger so that’s good to know you have found CBT useful. My company have introduced an employee assistance programme so I am going to see if I can get some counselling through that, the thought of having to spend hundreds of pounds on counselling because of the way she treats me just adds to the stress!

Hope it’s ok if I join. I always knew my parents were toxic but yet another incident today signified the final nail in the coffin in regards to having a meaningful relationship with my mum.

I’m not going to go NC but conversations will relate to meaningless crap like the weather and what activities she’s been doing. I’m also told I’m just like my abusive father. She acknowledges he’s abusive but would never leave him and the dream house in a naice suburb.

I’ve always known I was the scapegoat and a sibling the golden child but somehow as a parent myself the realisation comes with an added sting. I know I could never treat any of my DC the way she treats me.

Any concerns about the behaviour of the sibling are immediately dismissed and I’m told to make sure I’m very understanding and caring towards all of their needs irrespective of what shit they pull.

It’s not even just about me but about my DC. They adore their cousins and I don’t think I’d be forgiven if I cut or even reduced contact.

I’m feeling a little teary to be honest. I’m in an emotionally and financially abusive marriage and can’t even turn to my mum or siblings for support or indeed turn to DH for support with this whole mess.

Perhaps because she’d never leave my father she feels I should just “put up and shut up” after all he’s never hit me so I’m supposed to be grateful, that’s just the way it’s meant to be.....