But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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May 2009
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks will have a look at that. I read an article somewhere about addictions being basically about not being able to deal with connecting appropriately which was interesting too

I agree toomuch I cannot recommend The Body Keeps The Score too highly, it’s one of the best ways to learn about what trauma does to you and how you can help yourself to accommodate it and live again.

Thank you, I’m going to read it too. I found Why Does He Do That pretty important to read as well (it’s explicitly about men and the main abusive parent I had was female, but I think that was connected to her upbringing and sense of entitlement in some ways and apart from that it matched the situation really well).

Subhuman- that's EXACTLY the word I've been searching for. Thank you.

And lacking in harmony with others.

@CeciledeVolanges I think it's natural to want to be able to discuss things with friends, rather than a paid professional, but the reality is they cannot understand what you went through. It's so insidious that no one can see how damaging the behaviour is.

My therapist is the only one who gets it, because they are trained to deal with it. It's taken me a while to accept that there are some things about us that other people won't ever understand. We've been broken in the worst, most invisible ways.

You have to block their emails/get a new email address. Every time you see an email drop in, it takes you back there, it is not healthy and it will be making you suffer more than you need to xxx

Thanks Ballet. If your username refers to your birth year we are similar ages :)

I haven’t had a therapist who has even remotely got it, unfortunately. My on-and-off boyfriend explicitly says he’s only just started to understand the scale of it, but he was the first one to stick with me and the first one to tell me none of it was my fault, and that made a huge difference.

For what it’s worth, I don’t even know you and I can tell you now, you’re not sub-human, it’s just a wrong feeling. Thanks for saying what you did.

I’ve posted on some of the other threads under an old name. Didn’t think I’d need to post again.

Been NC with mother for 7 years, long story but weird toxic relationship which started when I had my first child as a teen. Ended in her dong something unforgivable relating to my eldest child.

Had to go very LC with siblings as they adore her, they both have a strange co-dependant relationship with her even though they are in their 30’s. I’m in my 40’s and am happy with this level of contact. However, mother has a significant birthday looming, is in bad health & siblings are emotionally manipulating me to see her.

It’s all about her, what she wants, her health, her day. Nothing about what I want.

She has said sorry for what she did, it was very shallow & insincere, like she didn’t know what she was saying sorry for, as she’d done nothing wrong.

In my head I know I should stay away, but my youngest child doesn’t want me to regret it if she hasn’t got long left. Thoughts.

@Offredismysister

I think you need to think long and hard about the prospect of her getting sick/dying and see if you are genuinely ok with not seeing her.

Only you can decide whether you would regret not seeing her.

Although your mother won't have changed and getting back in contact will cause another cycle of her damaging ways

So make sure it really is worth seeing her x

I am going to ramble before catching up with everyone else's goings on - selfishly I know but I can get it all off my chest here.

The funeral's are done and dusted. It is a relief. Grandma's was just perfect for her. Mother's, not so much but I guess when things happen so suddenly and when they have not been properly discussed, this was to be expected. I was very much the black sheep at mother's - seen as the prodigal daughter, even though my apology was made some time ago and never really accepted: to accept my apology would mean admitting fault on my parents and sister's part. Some people present were definitely judging my presence but I am content that I tried to reconcile even if others aren't aware of that. I was able to watch mother take her last journey knowing that even if things had not been brilliant and we had not spoken in years, that I had tried to make amends.

I am also feeling a bitch though, that there was an expectation from some that I should be crushed, devastated about my behaviour and how mother departed without this being resolved. That I should be gushing about what a wonderful person she was, how dedicated she was to her family... But I was never on the receiving end of that, at least over the last 20 odd years. Certainly in the last 10 there was little of her dedication to her family shown to me. An obligation maybe, but not a desire to be part of my family unconditionally.

And now, I have to work through my feelings for father. I am wondering if I am putting the blame for his actions onto mother and how she was, whether I am letting him abdicate responsibility to mother now she is not here to defend herself. How we move forward through this as otherwise I fully expect to hear of his passing through social media, from the obituaries. Because sister is clearly very involved with him. It is funny watching them and listening to my aunt tell me of one of her sister's being the gatekeeper to their elderly mother. The similarities. How families seem determiend to repeat the errors of their ancestors. And how maybe, just maybe, I am trying so hard to not repeat those with my own children but wondering at the same time if they are just inevitable.

Two things here. Firstly what would like to happen? For them all to stop pressurising you to go? For your mother to properly say sorry and mean it? To be able to attend and have a nice time with no damage being inflicted on you?

Secondly, what is the best outcome you could achieve with the current set of circumstances? You participate in the celebration for a short time then everyone accepts that you’ve done your bit, and it’s mostly for your children, perhaps?

The worst outcome is going to be if it’s used as an opportunity for your mother to exploit your attendance and abuse you, is that a possibility?

Sorry my post was for @Offredismysister

I haven’t had enough time to get my head round it, seeing her/them is imminent.

What I would like, is to stop being pressured & emotionally blackmailed so I can think about the implications short & long term.

No she wouldn’t use it as an opportunity to do that, more to be over the top & fake at how the family is reunited. The thought of managing expectations going forward is also draining.

It must be incredibly hard @offredismysister, when you have other people who are pressuring you into attending something for someone you have a dysfunctional relationship with.

It is also difficult to reconcile things when the other person steadfastly refuses to admit their part in why you have gone low/no contact with them.

What I did was send an email to my parents at the beginning of lock-down. Mother sent a one word reply, eventually, and I had a curt first message back from father followed by a slightly softer one. I am glad I did as I can say 'I made contact' when anyone asks and especially now we have lost mother. But I had no regrets, I had already grieved the loss of our relationship when I finally went NC. So her death was just the act of the physical body leaving the fringes of my life.

You have been low contact with her for several years now, and are being badgered by flying monkeys, even in the form of your own children. Do your children have any relationship with her? Do they know your side of the story?

Ours stopped asking about Nanny and Grandad a lot quicker than I expected, they rarely came up in conversation and if ever they did, the children knew that Nanny and Grandad had said some awful things and would not apologise; that we don't have to accept a person's behaviour just because they are family. Of course, this sometimes backfires in our home but it also means we can show our children the importance of the other person's feelings even if we don't agree with them.

ask yourself who you’re doing it for, yourself, your kids or your mother.

You don’t have to go. You don’t have to do anything. You have your reasons, no one can question them, it’s not their place.

Unfortunately you can’t say with any certainty what’s going to happen when your mother dies, how you’ll feel. You’ll likely still have the grief of the relationship.

Flying monkeys aren’t doing it for you, they’re doing it for themselves, so they don’t have to face the wrath or manipulation of the narcissist.

@minisoksmakehardwork you’ve been through some really challenging stuff, it sounds really hard. Does seeing it all written down help at all?

💐for you xxx

@minisoksmakehardwork what you’ve said about already grieving for the relationship is spot on.

I’m NC with one sibling, LC with the other, in fact I’ve only recently started communicating with this sibling a few months ago. Makes me wonder if this was the plan all along?

My own DC know 100% why, one of them was involved. They do not want me to do anything I’m not ready for, one has a good relationship with her, the other only sees her 3-4 times a year. The one with the good relationship doesn’t want me to be guilt tripped into anything. The other is the one who is concerned that I might regret it if she dies.

Hope no-one minds me joining in here. I'm relatively new to the forum (about a month or so) and this thread is actually why I joined, but I've never felt brave enough to post here before.

So, here goes. Basically I wondered if anyone else feels 'weird' about Father's Day? My dad died last year. He was an absolute bastard for my entire childhood - physically, mentally and financially abusive - and I finally just reached the end of the line with him about 15 years ago, and told him EXACTLY what I thought of him, and why. (that felt brilliant, btw!). Predictably, he denied it, and then when I started describing some of the things he'd done, he said that IF (if?? Cheeky bastard!) he had done anything like that, it wasn't his fault, it was because he had high blood pressure! Strangely enough he managed to keep his "blood pressure" in check at his work, in the street, in the pub etc etc.

I was obviously NC with him after that, (and moved house, and no one would give him my new address) but he managed to track me down via the Internet 3 years ago, as I was self employed and my business address was on my website. He sent me a card asking me to meet up with him. I debated it for ages with my DH, and decided to meet him to see what he would say.

He didn't mention it at all, the conversation was all about him. I challenged him about it again, and this time he said that IF he "maybe wasn't always a great dad" (nice minimising there, Pops!) it was a because his dad was the same, so he thought that was the correct way to raise a child. DH and I walked out at that point, and I never saw him again. He did email me twice a year, on my birthday and at Christmas, but that was it.

When he died last year though - and I'm so ashamed to admit this - I sobbed my heart out at his funeral. I think I was really crying for me rather than for him, for how my life could have been if I'd had a decent family (my mum was no help at all when I was growing up, she never once tried to defend me or my DBro). I could see people looking at me in amazement at the funeral, because everyone knew I hated him 😂. Not proud of my self-pity there though.

Afterwards, when my DBro and I were clearing out my dad's house (I'd never been there as he'd moved there during the time I was NC), it was quite a surreal experience. He had so many of the same books, DVDs, CDs as I have, and our taste in interior decor was really similar too. I have lots of his pictures and some furniture here, and it all just slotted in perfectly to my house.

I suppose my weird feeling about Father's Day is that I'll never get to understand why he hated me so much (and my DB, but to a lesser extent although he has been very badly damaged by our childhood, more than I have I think). I don't like loose ends and maybe that's what this is all about. I would like to have one more talk with him to force him to apologise, explain, whatever. We were so similar in a lot of ways, and I was such a good kid who perfected the art of being silent and small, and I just don't understand and now never will.

Thanks for reading, no need for anyone to reply, I actually feel a bit better for writing this down.

I think it’s really complicated, and will go on being challenging, very hard once they’re gone and there’s no chance for resolution. It sounds like you gave him plenty of chances.

I think you can forgive yourself for what you call self- pity and I would call grief. You’re allowed to feel sorrow and loss and loneliness when your dad dies even if he was a poor excuse for one.

I think it’s nice you feel connected through his things, maybe like you understood one another a bit.

A painful day. Thank god it’s nearly over for another year, just birthdays, Christmas and anniversaries to go...

@CarrieMoonbeams Hello 👋- I am NC with my father. He initiated it but I have not pursued any contact. It has taken me years to realise just how dysfunctional our family dynamics are. Thankfully no physical abuse or indeed any overt abuse at all but a quiet, persistent denying of me, my validity as a whole separate person who deserved love unconditionally from my parents. I was discarded by him after the traumatic death of my sibling almost a year ago. He manufactured a reason to take offence at me and hasn't spoken to me since. I think often about what will happen when he dies. I feel like I have grieved for him already but I know more will come. Father's Day is strange as I stopped "celebrating" it about 20 years ago anyway (I realise now I had subconsciously been distancing myself from him for years) but this year for the first time I've actually felt a strange pining for what I never had. And I see my DC with their father and wonder what it would have been like to be loved and "seen" like that. So I don't know what to say but I think the grief of a never was relationship can be as strong as grief for a sincerely and wholly loved and loving person. So be gentle with yourself .

Thank you Fanthorpe, it was very kind of you to reply.

I genuinely do actually feel better for writing that down - I never talk about it IRL, except of course DH knows all about it as we met when we were teenagers.

A funny old day right enough.

Much love to everyone else on this thread too, some awful stories on here x

Oh Griefmonster, that made me cry. I know exactly what you mean about the "strange pining" . It's exactly how I feel, but couldn't quite articulate it.

How sad that your dad treated you like that, both when you were a child, and now, with the death of your sibling. You must have amazing inner strength to be able to cope with that.

I'm so happy that your DC have a lovely relationship with their dad. One thing I've really enjoyed with this lockdown is seeing dads out walking with their kids and just chatting away, really enjoying each other's company.

It sounds like you didn't have that, and I think that's a cruel way to crush a child's spirit. In a way, my dad's overt violence was preferable really, because it wasn't every day, maybe only 3 or 4 times a week, and he could be quite good fun at other times (classic abuser behaviour, I know).

Much love and peace to you too Griefmonster x

For village shop.

This is the current thread

Hello all - big love to you all, specially everyone struggling with Fathers' Day.

Minisoks I bet your feelings about your father will shift around a lot now, as you grieve your mother, but I think you will end up with more clarity, not less. The further you get from the dysfunctional family dynamics, the more you heal, and my experience has been that I now remember a lot more about how my dad actually was - the good stuff and the bad (my dad was the enabler, my mum the abuser).

CarrieMoonbeams I would each what fanthorpe said - you had every right to be upset about your father's death, don't dismiss it as self pity, it is grief. I think it's good that you could cry.

Hi, I am a long time lurker on this thread, and have seen lots of great advice and support. My issue is with my mother...

I have to start by saying I know she didn’t have it easy. Dad was an alcoholic (died 10 years ago). Three kids in 4 years, the youngest having SN. I’m the oldest (49 last month). Middle kid died in an accident when they were 27. Middle kid was (in my eyes) her favourite. And losing a kid is something that nobody should ever have to go through.

She was never a hugger, and I don’t ever remember being complimented. I did well at school but any feedback I got was along the lines of “why did you only” not ‘well done”. Because dad was essentially a fourth child, I had to grow up much earlier than I should have. I escaped at 18 and went to uni, and have done ok for myself. No kids. If I’m entirely honest, it was because I didn’t want anyone to have my childhood. Have never gone NC, but am LC - live far enough away that a trip has to be planned, and communicate weekly. Tell her very little about my actual life because frankly she’s not interested.

So what has thrown me is that she has started to put stuff in messages like “I love you very much”. Which is just not true. I spent last night howling because those words should conjour up all kinds of happy memories about her and with her, and I don’t have one. Not one.

I can’t talk to anyone in RL about this because to everyone else she’s wonderful. Set up an action group for SN in the area she lives in, active member of the community, you name it. And I feel kind of a fraud too, because she was never properly nasty, but she has never, ever had my back. My last serious relationship, when we split up, she sent him a card. I never asked what it said, but it certainly wasn’t giving him a hard time.

Thank you if you’ve got this far! I guess my question is how do I make peace with this? It’s way too far down the line to develop any kind of relationship with her other than the superficial one I have. I just don’t want her to be able to affect me in the way she does any more.

@SometimesIwish - have you managed to find out anything about the Will.

I find it strange that your AM is still allowed the interest. I thought that would revert to you at a certain age

Hi Piggy😊
She has started to put stuff in messages
When I turned 50 my parent started to talk about being proud of me etc, I then realised this was because they wanted to make sure that I was on hand for caring duties🙄
I'm wondering if this is a similar thing.... your mother has decided it's time for you to start 'working' for her
when she says she loves you what she means if it's time for you to demonstrate your love and loyalty to her