How does everyone feel about p0rn?

[warmsummersday]

Hi. Im feeling abit insecure at the mo, OH works away in the week and all I can think about for the past couple of weeks is porn and I don't like the idea of him looking at it. I don't know why. Obviuosly I know he looks at it, just like everyother tom dick and harry! I have some but for me to look at it is fine in my head. Can someone reasure me and make me feel better please?

Elizabeth, my exp's cousin bought animal farm round to my house once, and put it on the video player (i didnt know what it was) he was laughing, saying you have to see this.
I saw about five minutes of it, in clips, as I was busy.
When I saw the woman and the pig (for those who have seen it) I took the video out of the player and ripped the reel out, snapping it in half and then binning it.
It was disgusting.

I almost mentioned Animal Farm. The majority of guys I know have seen it, and if they haven't then they've seen a similar alternative. There's a lot of publicity about child porn online (and rightly so) but almost none about what's being done to women all over the world and all over the internet. Rape, GBH, sodomy, murder, necrophilia. It really is that bad, but to point it out, people either don't believe you, or aren't interested, or think you're hyperventilating over nothing. And of course they think you're frigid!

"No-one has yet answered me about how many of their parnters and male friends have seen Animal Farm, but I can tell you that the answer, if they are porn users, is probably most of them. Porn particularly humiliating, degrading porn is part of male culture, a part that women turn a blind eye to probably because it is so frightening to think that men view women this way, but they do and it's something our society needs to address instead of labeling critics of porn as prudes or repressed or sex haters."

Yes my dh has seen animal farm at some point in his hazy youth.

Porn is porn, by the very nature of the beast a porn film is not going to show a man wining and dining a woman, showering in her roses and running her a hot bath before whispering sweet nothings in her ear until he finally gets his wicked way and when he does there are fireworks, the earth moves and they gaze lovingly into each others eyes and live happily after after.

I think most men are intelligent enough to know that porn is porn and not how all relationships are conducted. They're hardly gonna try and pull in the local library/cafe/at work by shouting 'hey sex sluts in the slammer fancy getting down and dirty?'

So, they know it's not real but can still enjoy watching. We know Eastenders/Corrie is not real life but it has millions of viewers.

Surely porn just fills a primal urge?

Unfortunatley abusive, ignorant and mysogonistic men will always exist, with or without porn

Well I've lived in the north of Scotland, London and the north of England and a majority of the blokes I've known in those places had seen Animal Farm too.

The woman used in it whose name I can't remember at the moment, died when she was about forty. Shelley Lubben has a list of dead porn actresses at her website.

Good for you Lorayn. All those guys who watch it and laugh are "nice guys", "nice guys" who don't mind seeing women raped by animals.

What is the primal urge to see a woman raped by a pig, DrNortherner?

In fact what is the primal urge to watch porn? Pornography using real live human beings has only existed in the past 50 or 100 years or so. How did men deal with their "primal urge" before that?

'I think most men are intelligent enough to know that porn is porn and not how all relationships are conducted.'

Maybe most, but not all, DrN. One of my biggest problems with porn is that I believe that it contributes to sexual violence against women.

When I was 19 I had an older boyfriend (big porn user, went to Amsterdam to buy the nasty stuff) who told me he wanted to slap my breasts and have anal sex with me.

I told him to fuck off, but he was obviously pornified. Porn tells men it's OK to do these things to women and it tells women that they have to do them to be acceptable or loved.

He was intelligent too. Intelligence has nothing to do with empathy or decency. Decent men would turn off Animal Farm but instead they all laugh at it and laugh at a woman being horribly degraded for their pleasure.

Most people who have watched animal farm (or variations of it) as a freak show, not to get off on it. The famed animal farm doesn't actually exist, it was just bestiality shorts spliced together, mostly starring one woman

It did the rounds when I was teenager (early 80'S)and obviously still doing the rounds now (you'd think in this world of porn domination there would be one more infamous??) People watched it for the shock factor, not for titalation. And the fact that everyone remembers/has heard of it tells me it isn't a mainstream thing to be watching bestiality

I don't see why anal keeps getting put forward as porn made thing, some women do enjoy it and it isn't a 'perverted' thing. Neither is group sex. You can't blame porn for every little variation from missionary position

Most men know porn is fantasy and don't believe it, that bright friends further down, well I'm sorry, he ain't that bright!! Sounds seriously sexually immature to me

Lets please knock this "pornography is fantasy" nonsense on the head.

Pornography is not fantasy, I'll say it again, it is real women having real things done to their real bodies. Men don't want to see pretend sex and degradation and pain when they can see the real thing.

That woman in Animal Farm was real. She really died at 41 after hundreds of thousands (millions?) of men had seen and laughed at her humiliation. How callous and cold-hearted do you have to be to watch that and laugh rather than doing what Lorayn did and destroying the tape?

I mean "just bestiality shots" - do you hear what you are saying? Do you hear it? Should any human being be subject to that? Apparently in your world she should and it can be brushed aside as "just bestiality shots". I'd kill someone if they did that to a member of my family and I'd probably want to kill the people who watched it too.

Elizabetth: please try and read my post correctly. The point was that Nina Hartley's quote should be placed in the context in her view of the industry which is that there are certain companies which are doing ever more extreme porn which should be forced out of business BUT there are many more companies which look after their performers. Whether you agree with this or not (obviously not I imagine) the point was do not take her out of context.

In terms of Animal Farm, and other things like it, I've never come across anything like it despite having seen a fair amount of porn on the net. The reason for this, pretty simply no doubt, is that there's not much of a market for it. If the people who make stuff like that were getting lots of people watching it then you can bet it would be a lot more high profile. As I said before, just because there is more unpleasant porn out there does not mean that that more people are viewing it, it simply reflects the growing niche nature of the internet. For example, just because there are now more sites for Rochdale football club than there were five years ago, does not mean that more people support the club. In terms of anything illegal though (e.g. necrophilia etc) I'd obviously expect to see that being prosecuted - you're right though, no doubt these sort of illegal sites are not prosecuted hard enough.

In terms of the amateur sites, Tamz, forgive me for saying so but that is a wholly subjective and unfair assessment of amateur porn. Just because you don't like it does not make it dysfunctional. I'm not sure I'd like to do it myself (though I imagine I could be convinced!) but plenty of people do. Look at the number of clips on these sites. In terms of whether it's consensual, please look at the clips on some of the sites if you need convincing.

I cant believe anyone that calls it 'just bestiality shots' can have watched that video.
I really cant.
And for the record, I do not enjoy porn, but I know people who do, and they would not enjoy that tripe.

ffs sake, i didn't say 'just' bestiality shots in a flippant tone, i said it wasn;t a whole film, it was a film of spliced bestaility shorts, as in just sliced together

And that one film of shorts is still talked about today, it isn't regular, mainstream porn. It is famous by being one a very few

You take this all too personally, if women want to do it, or get themselves in a such a state the only way to get by is to participate, well, sorry it isn't my problem.

I know men that like porn and not one of them partakes in anything more extreme, it doesn't make monsters out of men (or women)

Cestlavie, it's you who is missing the point. The point is that porn is getting harder, more degrading, nastier. Twenty years ago seeing a labia was regarded as risque now even "couples porn" features anal sex as standard. The number of companies making porn does not detract from that fact.

As for not seeing Animal Farm you are unusual. Then again if you are a woman probably not so much because like I said pornography is part of male culture like football is - even if women partake in it it is still directed at men. Men watched Animal Farm together to bond, it wasn't an event where women were welcome (probably because they knew a whole lot of their videos would get destroyed).

You mean because it didn't have a plot somehow it doesn't count, minorityrules? That's an interesting point of view.

The point is that men across the country watched bestiality and enjoyed it. They had no compunction not to watch it, the degradation and humiliation wasn't a turn-off, instead they thought it was hilarious.

Elizabetthe: my point was not that porn is not becoming harder. It may well be, although if it's true that Animal Farm was out in the 1980s then it certainly suggests that that type of porn has been around for almost three decades. It may be that this porn is becoming more available, firstly because of video then because of the internet.

My point was that it's unclear to me that harder porn is being any more widely used or viewed. The existence of more sites does not in itself mean that more people are using it. The evidence suggests that actually amateur porn is becoming a lot more popular and if you look at the bigger porn companies (e.g. Playboy) they're trying to produce this type porn. If you have any contrary evidence, please let me know.

You have a very one sided mind where porn is concerned, you will always think ALL porn is evil and all men are evil it would seem

People watched it (not just men) as it was shocking, it still is, it isn't mainstream. if it was there would be more of it

It wasn't watched as a sexual piece ie erotic. People did laugh, it was bizarre.

You come across as being seriously a bit crazed by this subject and lumping all sex and porn into a thing men do to women. It isn't!!!!

And I want to know when anal became a perverted act!

I don't think Elizabetth comes across as 'crazed' at all, and I think that's an unnecessary piece of unpleasantness. She is plainly well-informed and willing to argue her point - as are you.

V funny article on pr0n by St Caitlin of the Morans.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/caitlin_moran/article2509148.ece

Thanks dullwitch for that link - love St Caitlin

WHile I have never denied that their are bad people abusing and exploiting others in porn (as there are in EVERY industry), there is no reason to condemn those who try to give their workers a fair deal and try to make interesting material, just because you have an extremely rigid view of what type of sex is permissible to other consenting adults. (Ie just because you don't like anal sex doesn;t mean that everyone who does like it is mad or a liar and should not be allowed to engage in it).

I note someone citing ANdrea Dworkin, as well. THose of you who haven't read any of her, um, outpourings might find it useful, particularly in the terms of this discussion, to be aware of one of her more well-known assertions: 'Seduction differs from rape only in that the rapist bothers to buy a bottle of wine'. According to Dworkin, no woman can possibly give consent to sex, therefore all sex is rape

Well I've been away for the weekend, however on skimming over the thread I couldn't see the answers to my questions Elizabetth, I asked earlier where you draw the line on what is degrading...any chance you could respond??? (sorry if you already have, perhaps I missed it..if so, would you mind repeating?)

Actually I think you'll find that pornographin images have even been traced back to ancient egypt along with hyrogliphics (sp?) to think that 'porn' is realtively new is niave. Yes, Hue Hefner and his playboy mansion might not have been around forever but men and their sexual thoughts have.

Regarding Beastiality I asuume it is ilegal? It makes me want to be sick and I have no further comments on the subject.

But last time I looked porn was legal and that is what we are discussing.

Porn as we know it today is there because of demand, you can't blame it for the ills of society.

I agree that any women expolited in the industry need protecting, as in any industry. Sadly where there are men willing to exploit women there are often women who are willing to be exploited.

"Bigotry is bigotry whether it be racism or sexism"

agreed - not sure what your point was elizabeth - i think you were calling me a bigot becuase i dont think subjugationt hrough language in porn exists as both men and women use the language you are trying to say subjugates women.

racism in the genre - had nothing to do with saying i was racist - its a completely different point and one i wold not condone ermmm obviously.

"lets knock this porn is fantasy on the head"

cos you say so?

i think it is fantasy. i dont kow of anyone who doesn't.

the same censorship argument can be applied to violent video games.

DrNortherner: "women willing to be exploited"??! Er...okay...

Re. the anal sex issue: no-one's going mental about any act performed in a safe, loving, and humane environment between partners who are on an equal footing and who each care for the other's well-being. I for one indulged regularly with one ex and really enjoyed it, but I can tell you that he didn't persuade or force me, compel me not to use protection, spread me apart and pound me as hard as he could, abuse me verbally while he did it, damage my anus or rectum, or cause me any pain at all. Sorry to be graphic, but that's the difference between good sex (in all senses of the word 'good') and pornography.

Re. Andrea Dworkin: anyone who's in any doubt at all about the influence pornography has on violence against women and sex crimes should take a couple of hours to sit down with 'Pornography and Sexual Violence - Evidence of the Links' (good luck finding it btw) which is a transcript of hearings held in Minneapolis in the eighties, Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon's attempt to have the governing authorities recognise pornography as discriminatory against women. It contains public testimony from ordinary women who each had something to say about the role pornography has played in abuse committed against them. Examples:

"Let me tell you some of the things that they have been asked to do because of pornographic pictures - and this was by their husbands and boyfriends...
"Miss E: It was physical slapping and hitting. It wasn't a turn on; it was more a feelig of being used as an object. What was most upsetting was that he thought it would be a turn on.
"Miss H: This couple who had just read a porno book wanted to try the groupie number with four people. They tried to persuade my boyfriend to persuade me...
"Miss I: It was S & M stuff. I was asked if I would participate in being beaten up...Anal intercourse...I have been asked to do that, but I don't enjoy it at all. I have had to do it, very occasionally.
"Miss J:...I was always upset with his ideas about putting objects into my vagina, until I learned that this is not as deviant as I used to think. He used to force me or put whatever he enjoyed into me.
"Miss K:...He also wanted to pour champagne on my vagina. I got beat up because I didn't want to do it....After that I went ahead and did it, but there was no feeling in it.
"Miss P: My boyfriend and I saw a movie in which there was masochism. After that he wanted to gag me and tie me up...He literally tried to force me...told me to relax, and I would enjoy it. Then he started putting me down about my feelings about sex, and my inhibitedness..."

Note that these are husbands and boyfriends committing these acts. And btw, these weren't just a bunch of Dworkin's mates come along for her jolly, they were subjects interviewed by a member of the University of Illinois Medical School (a man) who had spent 20 yrs studying the effects of gender inequality.

I'll spare you the story of a 13 yr old being gang-raped in the woods by men who used porno mags as instructions. These stories are NOT rare; it's currently estimated that 1 in 3 women will endure sexual assault at some point in their lives. All of the above is happening as we speak and pornography aids, abets and legitimises it.

Dworkin's book 'Pornography' is maybe easier to find if anyone's interested. You always get these cut n' shut quotes of hers in the press, usually supplied by people who don't know a thing about her work or beliefs. Dworkin wrote about her disgust with the inequality of gender/sexual relations and her desire that this be resolved. She called sex 'rape' when it was compelled by one party or not participated in willingly - for whatever reason - by another. If had ever had a chance to come on Mumsnet she'd read all the posts by women who can't afford to leave partners they do not want to be with, or who are too scared to, or who have no sex drive but still participate, and I guess she'd call much of it rape. Up to you if you agree or not, but I'd say f* you to anyone who sneeringly quotes Dworkin and doesn't ackowledge the fact she spent her LIFE campaigning for women's rights and speaking up for the abused.

BTW Linda Lovelace (ex Deep Throat) also appears at these hearings and she is so damaged by her experiences she cannot physically pronounce the word 'dog' but has to spell it out. Anyone who thinks Animal Farm is worth a chuckle should maybe take a moment to think on that.