How does everyone feel about p0rn?

[warmsummersday]

Hi. Im feeling abit insecure at the mo, OH works away in the week and all I can think about for the past couple of weeks is porn and I don't like the idea of him looking at it. I don't know why. Obviuosly I know he looks at it, just like everyother tom dick and harry! I have some but for me to look at it is fine in my head. Can someone reasure me and make me feel better please?

Fuck, I am tired, and I really need to go to bed. Totally misread the title so ignore me.

Elizabetth and Mrs m - whatever answer I give to the question, I can offer no evidence in support of it. It's the internet - no one knows that you're a dog. For all you know I could be a 14 year old boy, a sex worker, a porn baron or a lizardy Illuminati.

The Norweigan authorities are planning on following the Swedish lead and criminalising johns, DaddyJ. So much for their "sober" (john-defending) report. (that's a very biased site you linked to BTW)-

www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2063250,00.html

Whatever mademez, it didn't stop you asking questions, just answering them it seems.

Quote at the end of the Guardian article:
"I don't think it will help the women," said Karita Bekkemellem,
the Labour party's minister for children and equality affairs
and a strong advocate of women's rights.

The Norwegians' own report pretty much shows that the Dutch
are on the right track and the Swedish have merely
pushed the trade 'indoors' and underground while
the remaining street prostitutes are now in much more danger.

I agree, though, it would be interesting to know why
a majority of Norwegian politicians are ignoring the findings of their own report.

"ou never address a single one of my points do you? You can't argue that the porn industry calls women slts, whres and c**ts even though you pretend it's sexual liberation for women, so instead of addressing that appalling woman-hatred that is promoted almost across the board by the porn industry,"

i beloieve i answered that question directly a few days ago

something along the lines of that its the vernaculer of the medium and the words out of the ladies mouths arn't too sweet either.

I;ve only skimmed this, will come back to it tomorrow but Elisabeth, I like your posts and agree with what I've read so far (about half way through the thread)

DaddyJ. It is a minefield. Norwegian police keep rolling up one traficking scandal after the other. On the other hand there are special groups assigned to hunt peadophiles. I think they want to follow the Swedish model in order to protect children. Also I think one might have to look closely at how a person end up selling sex in Norway. Have they responded to a lonely hearts ad and are there because they think they have found love and possibly marriage? Whilst all they have found is a cynical male who forces them to prostitution. They have no money, no passport, no way to return home. And to ashamed to tell anyone. And who should they tell? This happens. Prostitution may be totally voluntary for some, but not so somewhere else. Women are a commodity. Few Norwegian woman want to sell sex for a living. But many want to buy it. So you have to "import". It is the good old law of supply and demand.

Haven't we just made buying sex illegal in this country?

I'm with Elizabeth on this, 100%.

I suppose I think that in an ideal world it should be possible for those who like that sort of thing to enjoy it (maybe by creating/looking at a virtual holodeck instead of real protagonists, in some fantasy future - well it's an idea!) but much of the porn I've seen does involve degradation of the participants, sometimes the women look obviously ill or drugged. And IMO the topic set up in the Men's Room looking for confirmation that men don't talk about women in a degrading way should not be set too much store by, since men who DO talk like that - and we all know there are some - were probably not going to queue up to say so on a largely female and parenting site.

MrsM, I think it is being considered by Parliament at the moment
but they are still studying the Swedish model.
Makes this thread even more topical.

From what I have read so far, SSN, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
What the Norwegians appear to be really concerned about
is not prostitution per se but trafficking.

In that case would it not be more effective (from a police and prosecution point of view)
to criminalise johns who buy sex from underage/forced prostitutes?

Too right I bet they are studying a Swedish model.

Sid James ain't got nothing on me!

"something along the lines of that its the vernaculer of the medium and the words out of the ladies mouths arn't too sweet either."

Oh right, it's OK to call a woman a slt, whre or c*nt if she said a rude word.

That is the most disgusting argument I've heard on here.

Would you feel the same if it was a black person being racially abused, or a jewish person facing anti-semitic insults. Would you say that was the "vernacular" of the medium too?

People here are in serious denial about what porn is and what the porn industry does to women. Here's another reality check -

www.againstpornography.org/takeacloserlook.html

to aline it with racism is indeed the most stupid argument I have ever heard.

you are trying to prove subjugatin through use of language - no?

i am telling you that no such subjugation exists - it is an equal use of foulf language which is often used in this medium.

this has nothing to do with racism - and i resent your implication by association.

I am joining this late, as I have been avoiding this thread a while, (but picked up on what DaddyJ was saying yesterday). Much as I agree with a lot of what Elizabethh is saying, I do not comprehend the racism/antisemittic argument in the least. It is not comparable, and it is wrong on so many levels, though I have had too little sleep to get my brain around eloquently saying why. Will ponder.

Bigotry is bigotry whether it be racism or sexism. For some reason people recognise racist insults but have a hard time noticing sexist insults or even if they do notice them, thinking they are much of a problem.

You're "telling me" no such subjugation exists are you, yet you ignore the words of all the porn actresses, all the porn producers, all the porn consumers and all the women hurt by porn who say that's exactly what it's about.

Custardo, I'm not wrong in thinking you are a woman am I? I assume most people here are women.

Also you can't have seen much porn because racism is also intrinsic to the genre.

Ok, I read the op and a few of the first posts but here is my view.
I dont like the thought of my DP looking at porn, I am quite insecure although I'd like not to be about such a subject, I know it is ridiculous and in no way a reflection on me, but I dont want him looking at other women and getting turned on by them.
I know he doesn't cos basically he doesn't get the chance.
But if he worked away or something he has pictures/videos of me and I'd like to think that they would be enough.
If I was worried I would happily send rude texts/calls etc, whilst reading a book in my jim jams (how is he to know if I really am getting into it? ).
I don't think there is a definite need for porn, but I don't think we should have a problem with people who do enjoy it.
Lapdancing however is a totally different subject.
If he went to a lapdancing club, I would go crazy. My ex went to one on a stag do, and then when he came home my daughter went in his bag to find a polaroid of him with a dancer laying on him over a table with her breast in his mouth, I was disgusted, luckily she wasnt old enough to understand.

Wow - have been dying to join in this debate but not got the chance, as Elizabeth is putting my point of view across so much more eloquently lol.

The underlying point is that porn is a lie. It lies to men about what women want and even 'who' women are. It lies to women about what they need to do to be women, in the sense of being feminine and sexual.

And if you don't think racism has a part to play, you don't know porn. (If you don't want to actually look at porn then read Andrea Dworkin on the subject.)

I've had 2 recent discussions about porn with male friends that are kind of relevant. One told me about a couple of films he'd downloaded which were disguised as ordinary films. Among other things they showed a woman fellating a horse, a woman masturbating with two live eels (one in each orifice), and another woman being "raped" (his word) by a pig. Exactly what level of self-esteem, personal happiness and autonomy do you really think the participating actresses have in these cases?

Before you reply with the "that's extreme/hardcore/rare" argument (another myth, as the essential nature of the porn industry is to keep pushing boundaries, to keep offering things that the consumer didn't even know he wanted), my OTHER male friend showed me 2 porn clips on his phone which he rated as completely normal and 'real'. Both were amateur, one featured a teenager inserting a wine bottle into her vagina, and the other was rough vaginal/anal sex 1-on-1. He was fascinated by the woman's orgasm in the second clip, thought it was amazing, she was "shaking so much, so turned on she can't control herself". What she was actually doing of course was faking an orgasm and quite clearly moving herself to escape the brutality of the guy behind her.

My friend's bright enough but still takes it as read that most if not all porn actresses are simply women who can't get enough. The reality is that less than one per cent of porn actresses earn fortunes; less than one per cent become famous enough to dictate their own terms on set. The case of the 18 yr old contracting HIV is about as real as it gets. Women in porn can rarely define their own boundaries because BY DEFINITION in porn boundaries do not exist. If you say you don't do anal, then you don't get work. If you say you'll only f* with a condom, then you don't get work. And again, I have to ask, just how many women do you seriously think ask themselves, "Right, I want to be independent, assertive, solvent, enjoy my work and my working environment...porn...it's the obvious choice." I'm not being flippant, I'm just incredulous that you think the NORM is that porn actresses fit the description of healthy and happy feminists. The NORM is that they are, in some way, very unhappy, or very damaged, or both.

Amen, Tamz

I agree tamz, the same with lapdancers (sorry to come back to it again)
I have two friends who have done lapdancing, both are extremely pretty with wonderful figures and the most insecure people I have ever met, they believe that their bodies/faces are the best thing about them, they think the job is 'glamorous' and that they are so much better than other people cos guys 'want' them.
That is for the first couple of times, when they do the job, drunk or drugged up.
They then realise just how horrid it is, there is nothing glamorous about showing your flange to some random guy for ten pounds.
Thankfully both girls stopped, unfortunately it hasnt changed their opinions of themselves, nor the thought that if they ever need quick easy money they can just flaunt themselves.
Both have cried to me about how awful it made them feel, and I don't know any decent men who would be as turned on by these girls if they realised as soon as they had finished the dance they run to the toilet to cry and down another couple of vodka shots.

Exactly Tamz, what you describe there is the reality of pornography, not the myths that pornsters like to spread around (whilst they are busy w*nking to double anal).

Your friend sounds like a bit of a dummy (sorry). Did it cross his mind that the reason the woman might be shaking uncontrollably would be through fear and trauma because of what was being done to her?

A good bit of what is in porn, particularly hardcore is just filmed rape.

Couple of points. Firstly it seems like the debate is becoming a little polarised with a number of people effectively saying that all porn is bad in itself, even where it's evidently consensual, for example, a couple making an amateur film on a webcam and are charging £5 a view online. Is that the case Elizabetth/ Tamz etc. or do those you are against porn believe that certain forms of porn are acceptable? Is it the point at which money becomes involved that it becomes wrong and if so, why? If I open a site offering people £100 for each clip like those above, does that make those clips somehow wrong?

Secondly, it seems that people are throwing out very strong views as statements rather than opinions, e.g. "A good bit of what is in porn, particularly hardcore is just filmed rape". Is it really? A statement suggesting that one of the most serious offences against the person is the norm in the industry would for me need a lot of validation, not just snippets of interviews. If there is evidence that is indeed the case, then it would be pretty interesting reading.

Equally, a view like "the essential nature of the porn industry is to keep pushing boundaries" would need some evidence. Really? I know that with the internet, there is incredibly extreme stuff on the net, but is this what is driving the porn industry? In this case I believe that the fastest growing porn sites by some margin are the entirely amateur sites, e.g. youporn.com, yuvutu.com, pornotube.com etc. which have amateurs posting webcam footage, very much like youtube.com. There's actually an article about it in The Times today. Again, if the amount of people viewing extreme porn is growing significatnly (rather than simply the number of sites) then I'd be very interested in seeing the evidence.

Thirdly, you can't just ignore contrary evidence of the other point of view. For example:

Madamez: listening to the youtube postings (and others it links through to) it's hard not to say that there are clearly problems with the porn industry which cannot be ignored.

Elizabetth: it's pointless and entirely recidivist to dismiss someone with a contrary point of view, e.g. Nina Hartley, as simply being a stooge of the industry and take her quotes out of context.

There's a great book, published 2003 which features a fairly long interview with Nina Hartley and various other figures in the US porn industry called "Once More with Feeling" and which highlights the ambiguities of the industry and the participants in it. I'd really recommend reading it. What it highlights, amongst other things, is that in the professional porn industry there are a wide array of people and companies involved.

It seems to me that perhaps the problem with porn is the lack of regulation in the industry, beyond fairly basic regulation. Would this affect people's view? I suspect incidentally, at least part of the reason doesn't have any system of regulation is that (a) no government is going to put one in place as it effectively condones the industry thereby losing them votes and (b) in any event it would require an effective system of reporting work it to work which it would struggle to have.

cestlavie, I agree that not all porn is the same, but many of the people in these films, although consensual are suffering from low self esteem, surely that doesnt make it okay??
But I too think that people getting turned on by making their own porn and distributing it is a different kettle of fish, that is more of a fetish than a 'job', but we still dont know if either party felt 'forced' into it.

Well, like I said, he's a bright guy, but like so many other bright guys he's been conditioned from a pretty young age to believe the things he sees in porn, ie to consistently misinterpret what he sees. It's like the recent publicity about what people believe about rape, that if a woman dresses 'tartily' then she, at some level, wants it to happen, or enjoys it. A scary number of people truly believe this.

The lapdancing posts were interesting for their POV; I'd add that a lot of women who feel insecure about themselves when confronted with porn are maybe not insecure on the level of not having pneumatic tits or an entirely hair-free groin, but are made to feel st about themselves by the role they see women compelled to play. Who are we in porn? Sluts and whores who scream with pleasure when having pain inflicted upon them.

Both the porno clips I mentioned before came off sites like the youtube-style porn sites. Being made in someone's cosy front room doesn't necessarily make it 'good' porn, and doesn't always mean that there is a balanced and mutually consensual event taking place between two people who are really enjoying themselves. Not that I'm trying to say all (amateur) porn is rape. I know a couple who run an amateur site and are both, apparently, very happy doing so. They invite outsiders into their marriage and film the results, then post them for paying members. She says she loves it, fair enough, maybe she does. But the very fact that she enjoys her husband going up to strangers in the pub and inviting them home to f* his wife on camera kind of says something, IMO, about how accepting we've become of dysfunctional sexual relationships. They've become normalised to the point where taking it up the arse, joining in group sex (bukkake, anyone?) somehow makes you a funky cool modern girl with no hang ups. For so many reasons it's easier for women to collaborate in the myth of what feminie sexuality is, because it makes them more valued, and more popular, and more likely to find a man. I (as an example) do a bit of online dating, and once got chatting to a man who refused to meet when I told him I didn't wear make-up and didn't wear heels. His exact words when refusing were that I "didn't sound like I kept myself clean." You tell me where that kind of extrapolation comes from, if not from the pornographic stereotypes that a beautiful, sexy, fun and feminine woman dresses up for you and paints her face and performs for you, and the corresponding stereotype that all non stocking and suspender-wearing women are bitter about not being 'naturally' what they really want to be.

So many of the issues we're discussing are so embedded in the popular subconscious that folk think you're a loon if you try to dig them out. The idea that's appeared here for example, that men 'need' porn, that all men use it, that men need an 'outlet'. WTF? Men (or our sons, at least) need some effing reeducation. So do we.

"What it highlights, amongst other things, is that in the professional porn industry there are a wide array of people and companies involved."

Not quite sure how the number of companies and the numbers of people involved in porn somehow make porn any less exploitative of and damaging to women, cestlavie. Nor does the length of one interview with Nina Hartley detract from what she was saying in that quote I provided, whatever context it appears in.

Porn is getting harder and more degrading, gonzo porn like Bangbus are ever more popular, Tamz's friend has downloaded bestiality porn on his computer and if you think that is some kind of fringe activity you are kidding yourself.

No-one has yet answered me about how many of their parnters and male friends have seen Animal Farm, but I can tell you that the answer, if they are porn users, is probably most of them. Porn particularly humiliating, degrading porn is part of male culture, a part that women turn a blind eye to probably because it is so frightening to think that men view women this way, but they do and it's something our society needs to address instead of labeling critics of porn as prudes or repressed or sex haters.

Just to add, am not saying all men are perverted idiots. A lot of them feel confused and intimidated by what it's supposed to be to 'be a man', too. The male role in porn is inevitably played either by someone who's detached and nasty, or someone who's so acutely submissive he wants to be literally shat on. That's no more useful to society than the feminine pornographic stereotype.