My 9 year old daughter hits us, punches us, kicks us, screams at us, and i dont know what to do :(

[JuatWantAdvice506]

Hello, seeking some advice. I feel lost.
My 9 year old daughter is amazing at school, as far as we know she gets on with her work and plays well with her friends.
But at home, it's like a whole different child.

She can be amazing and lovely and so funny. But even before lockdown, she had moments of lashing out but since lockdown it's been everyday.
Me and dp have been punched, kicked in the knees, she pulls her fists up at us, she punches me in the head multiple times,
She will hold us down and swing her hands around our necks like a monkey. When we try and get her off us or move her hands away to stop her punching us, she claims we hurt her and that she'll tell school, when we don't.
I just dont know what to do :( i filmed her backlash tonight which resulted in her trying to snatch my phone and try and hide it. I just feel like a useless mum and i broke down crying as she was punching me in the head the other day.
They happen for no reason as far as I see. Afterwards, I sit her down and tell her i love her and ask why she has done this and she said she doesn't know. We've tried to find other solutions like drawing, writing, punching pillows, behaviour charts, but she just always resorts to being violent.
She ripped the behaviour chart off the wall, she's smashed about 3 tablets by throwing them in a temper.

I just dont understand. Her sister is 7 and doesnt behave this way. Me and dp hardly fight and if we did, we'd never be violent to each other. It's getting us both down.
Any tips? And thank you in advance!

I haven't RTFT OP so sorry if I am repeating
I have a violent child. It makes for a tough life. I know why though
I would suggest requesting your thread to be moved to the SN board or starting a new thread. You need a referral and Ax but are unlikely to get anything quickly just now
Traditional parenting methods don't work. Forget behaviour charts they just add to the stress
I suggest you look at non violent resistance for a start. I have internal locks so I can get away from my child. And use the police if you have to. Most of them are understanding

I am also wondering about autism and also advise a GP visit and request a referral to child MH services for an assessment. In the meantime, google Dr Pooky Knightsmith who's a renowned expert on child & adolescent mental health. She has tons of videos and has written books which are very accessible and helpful.

You need to deal with this as soon as possible. I know a young woman , now in her twenties, who behaved in a very similar way from when she was a toddler. Whatever problems she had were never addressed and eventually issues started at school. As a young woman in her twenties she's only now getting the help she needed. It's a worst case scenario but she grew up alongside my daughter and it was so sad to see her noticeable problems not being addressed from an even earlier age of than your daughter. One of the sad aspects for that child was that she was from a very privileged background and they had the money to keep changing schools as problems arise rather than ever really dealing with it. Best of luck with it all, I'm sure the current lockdown is accentuating the problems .

Op I cried reading this as its like your talking about my 8 year old shes fine in school but the moment she comes home it's hell she'll hit and everything then the next minute she's fine like it never happend but they say when kids act like this it means your their safe place but yeah see the gp as I did and even though they ruled out austim there is something there

another vote for autism.

try ear defenders at tea time. or eating separately before everyone else.

try stepping in before she gets overwhelmed. (when she starts to get arsey is the warning sign) firm pressure, rocking in one direction, weighted blanket (dd likes the wheat bags) firm massage. food.

you and dp need to get consistent. Go on a parenting course. It might solve the issue, if not then you can say you are doing xyand z but she still has diffiulties.

I removed computer time for mine when he misbehaved, was beginning to get towards meltdown, but he could earn it back by calming down.

there are signs of autism other than the behaviour. the sensory issues, (tickling, )

sensory seeking (thumb sucking)
talking in a babyish voice
social difficulties with lack of friends until recently.

Does she have any other sensory issues? (leans on you, lots of jumping off things, doesnt like noise but makes noise when it is noisy, doesn't like labels in clothes, fussy about socks, likes watching spinning things, rocks, licks things, chews on clothing, sniffs things or hates the smell of certain things,) look for over or undersensitivty.

does she get jokes, sarcasm, inference? is she literal in what she does. (and probably gets into trouble for it?)

how does she behave in the supermarket?

(she may be sensory seeking with the door slamming)

has she any special interests? Might appear less unusual than those seen in boys.

how does she play with toys?

does she seem more immature than her peers?

My daughter extremely clever sociable well liked ; extreme meltdowns manipulative deflects with Sauk g dreadful things
Has been diagnosed PDA.
Her meltdowns shouting violence are like a panic attack.

Hi OP, your daughter sounds a lot like my 8 year old son who has a diagnosis of PDA. We had to get him diagnosed privately but it was worth every penny.

I know it's been said plenty of times already but The Explosive Child is a great book to read for strategy, whether your daughter is NT or not.

It sounds like she has some significant sensory seeking behaviour. My son does too, and understanding this really changed our approach both to his stimming (things that he would be told off for in the past, like chewing his sleeve and shrieking, are largely accepted) and providing him with other outlets for his sensory needs, like a game of pillow fighting just before tea, or letting him have a long shower where he can spit water - it sounds unthinkable to a lot of people, but we have adjusted our mindset a lot to meet his needs.

If you can identify her triggers, you're halfway there. The other half is getting support, if she needs it - we are still struggling with the best external support for our son, but since his diagnosis school have been great (before that, they didn't believe it). He masks completely at school, is very quiet and in top groups for everything.

I keep a diary of his behaviours and this has really helped see both the good and the bad.

I am so overwhelmed with all the responses, I was not expecting this much support and genuinly kind people so thank you so much! I have read through all of them so I will try and answer as many as I can from memory.

First of all, thank you to those sharing your stories about your children who are quite similar to my dd. Makes me feel less alone and less like a bad mum. I'm sure we will all get through this. And it's great to share strategies!

Thank you to everybody who has shared suggestions on dealing with the violent outbursts. I honestly didnt know any techniques. I think really I was just scared of physically touching her when she was angry incase I hurt her in some way so the concept of restraining her is something I will have to look into - as i only want to do the safest techniques so i have saved all the links that have been sent to me on my phone's notepad.

Yes me and dp have had problems because of this. Lots of arguments and sometimes we blame each other infront of her which is so long e.g.
"If only you let her give you a tickle for a minute she wouldve been fine!!"
"Can you stop shouting at her??"
"Just give her the tablet so she can stop!"
"The neighbours are hearing all this shouting! What must they think??"
Honestly so worried we will end up breaking up over this.

She is very hyperactive! Constantly doing cartwheels in the house and handstands, We've told her the garden is the place to do that but she doesnt listen.
She will purposely do a handstand whilst someone is sitting on the sofa right in their face.
She likes to sit VERY close to you and we've had to speak about personal space.
As in i will be on the edge of the sofa and she is practically pushing me to the edge to be right by me (I actually love this though),

I dont know why she is obsessed with tickling, i thought she was doing it to annoy us, but tickle her back and hell breaks loose.

She cant take a joke AT ALL. But dont know if she takes after me with this as I can be a person who takes things to literally.

Also when her uncle visits and is about to leave, she is very up and down with him.
He will say "right i'm off" and will try and give her a hug and a kiss and she will say "no!" So he will say okay and leave. And then she's having a meltdown about how she wants to give uncle a hug and a kiss and how she has to run out of the house to find him (we lock the doors), she's then trying to open the doors and looking in the blinds!

She is fast asleep right now and I look at her and i absolutely adore her, just wish she didnt hold so much of this anger as i want her to be happy

Your daughter could be an angel at school for a good few reasons. School is routine driven, she knows what she's doing at what time and where she sits and what time breaks are which can be very comforting for people with ASD. It could also be that she works so so hard to keep herself together during the school day that by the time she gets home she's completely exhausted! Which could also explain the 5pm thing?

I was diagnosed with OCD in my early twenties, I knew something wasn't right as a child and into my teens but my parents never really acted on it. The second I was diagnosed it was like everything made sense and I felt much better straight away, almost like an itch that had finally been scratched! if you get a referral and your daughter gets a diagnosis then this won't be 'bad behaviour' or 'tantrumming' anymore and you won't treat it as such which means it won't be so draining for any of you and you'll likely learn what her triggers are and diffusion techniques.

Also be aware though, that ASD or OCD or ADHD are only parts of a children's personality, and they can still be clever enough to manipulate situations the their advantage just as any NT children can, so your husband buying and giving in all the time should probably stop anyway regardless of anything else

Interesting about the tickling - this could be her way of trying to interact with you because she doesn't really understand social rules. My son roars like a tiger at people, when he's trying to be friendly - it worked when he was 4 or 5 and people thought it was cute, now he's 8, not so much!
He also found out my ticklish spot once and he asks to tickle me there every day - this is his way of connecting. He does the same to his baby brother, who once laughed at a tickle under the chin and now is subject to it daily, bless him, whether he likes it or not.

It sounds very much like dissociation to me, has she got attachment issues, adopted? The reverting back to baby speak is her way of dealing with a stressful situation. I have two adopted children with attachment disorder and this sounds very familiar. Especially the being told no, they believe if I loved them I would say yes and separate themselves from their behaviour so spiral into shame.

Also - sorry to harp on! - but with her uncle, does she have fair warning when he is going? My son hides when my parents leave but then gets really upset when they've gone, so he gets a 10 minute, 5 minute and 1 minute warning that they're going, and when they've gone he sends them a text to say an extra goodbye.

Watch her closely and when she is throwing a strop, think what was happening immediately before. Write it down. You might start to notice a pattern emerging. Also what happens immediately after. If you give her treats to get her to calm down, stop. Praise her and give her positive attention when she is behaving. Try to ignore her strops. Ok X we are going into another room as we don't want to see this bad behaviour. Leave room and take other children with you. She will likely stop her strop when no one to watch her. Go back into room when she had calmed down and act as if nothing has happened. Do not comment to her on her bad behaviour. It sounds as if she is not handling lockdown very well. If everyone in house totally ignored her strops and she does not get any attention whatsoever, there will be no point in her doing them. Do make a fuss of her and tell her how much you love her when you catch her being good. I would try this for 3 weeks before seeking aid from GP. It will only work if everyone in house reacts in same consistent way. Good luck.

She's not adopted but it's still very interesting to learn about disassociation.
I just cant think of what she would be stressed about,
We do spend one to one time with her and we sometimes go on our daily walks just the two of us and take lots of lovely pictures

No we give her no warning, he just says his usual "right i'm off! Give us a hug!" Maybe that how many minutes warning might be effective!
Usually when he says it, she starts running around and once ran upstairs with his shoes and hid them in her bedroom which took about 20 minutes to find

It also sounds like your do is enabling her. If she smashes her tablet then she should have to wait for birthday or Xmas to get another one. Your dp needs the counseling on parenting.

I used to be seriously concerned the neighbours would call the police when my daughter was at her worst but they never did or even mentioned it so try not to worry about that.
Taking things literally, not being able to take a joke could just be her personality but it does sound like more than that. I agree with another poster about time warnings, for meal times and people leaving. If I forget to give 10 minutes warning for tea,all hell breaks loose.
I'm assuming she's not at school at the moment, do you have a routine in place? Routine helps my daughter. It can be exhausting keeping to it but easier for her.

Are you certain she's not being bullied at school? I have a friend with a little girl who was doing the exact same things as your daughter, and behaving perfectly at school. It turned out she was being isolated and badly bullied by other kids and nobody had any idea. She was only 7. She's been going to a psychologist for a few months and they've moved her to another school and she's so much happier and more settled now.

From some of what you've said I agree with another poster that there is sensory seeking behaviour going on. Check out sensory processing disorder online too there are also online checklists (sorry don't have links to hand) the wanting to sit close sounds like a proprioception issue, her body needs something pressing on it to soothe and feel solid.
A weighted blanket she can get under in the afternoon before the usually upset time might help or play a game of squish- roll her up tight in a duvet and press on her or see if she likes nice firm squeezes down her arms and legs. Or compression t shirt
Similarly the cartwheeling is activating her vestibular system - would something like a swing or trampoline help?
You will find the bits of the puzzle you need to sort this for her - good luck

I used to work for MST (multi systemic therapy) but for teenagers. Often violent teenagers.

It’s hard to explain all of their techniques but one of the main ones is sequencing.

So when an incident occurs, you write down in as much detail, step by step of what has happened, including what has happened in the run up, what everyone’s reaction is , how it continues and what eventually resolves it.

Once you have a few of these sequences. You can start identifying triggers, what is making it worse, what is working etc.

You need family rules. With clear clear consequences. But to start with this needs to only focus on violence with a few clear defined rules.

Example will be. No tickling or play fighting at all, no exceptions. There needs to be a quick consequence for this. But also a reward if this is rule followed everyday. A high value reward such as time on the iPad, pocket money, something immediate that she cares about.

Like others have suggested, you need a safety plan. When she kicks off, how are you keeping yourselves, her and other DD safe. If DH is stronger, he takes her away from you and DD, doesn’t engage with her as others suggested but keeps her safe. Other DD gets to go to a safe place with headphones and iPad.

Focus on the violence and the violence alone until this is resolved. Discuss the rules with her and get her to pick the rewards and what some of the consequences might be.

Have you considered a reward chart? She gets a star for every day she doesn’t get the rage. After 7 days she gets a big reward. After 28 days she gets a much bigger reward.

If this is PDA, a reward chart would be totally counter-productive - it's just another demand and more stress to cope with.

Take away devices and all privileges and I’m sure her behaviour will magically improve.
'
How do people manage to write this sort of nonsense nowadays? Surely it's obvious from OP's posts that that is never going to work?

What do you say no to?

How do you say no? Is it with warmth and reasoning or authoritarian and challenging?

If it’s the latter, does she struggle to be on your wrong side? Does her self esteem take a hit with the way you say no. Does she need your approval to feel steady?

I do believe in saying no however it’s best to do it with kindness and warmth. Where possible tell her when something is possible. (Biscuit after tea but not now as important to have nutritious food before eating crap)

However I suspect your biggest problem is your husbands inability to give boundaries and support you.

Also name the behaviour. If your child bullies, hurts and torments you call a spade a spade. In calmer moments ask her about it in a kind manner. Ask why she does it, try to get to the cause of her reaction and ask her what she can do to stop it? Discuss what will happen next time. Removing screens for 24 hours would be perfectly reasonable. Maybe you might have to hide them from your husband too what with him being such a wet lettuce.

A second conversation needs to be had with your husband who has no boundaries. He is probably the cause of this behaviour because he gives in when ever she throws her weight around.

Also if she kicks off remove yourself to somewhere safe. Lock the family away together till things are calm.

She will probably go wild but everyone needs to quietly sit tight behind locked door till it’s over