My 9 year old daughter hits us, punches us, kicks us, screams at us, and i dont know what to do :(

[JuatWantAdvice506]

Hello, seeking some advice. I feel lost.
My 9 year old daughter is amazing at school, as far as we know she gets on with her work and plays well with her friends.
But at home, it's like a whole different child.

She can be amazing and lovely and so funny. But even before lockdown, she had moments of lashing out but since lockdown it's been everyday.
Me and dp have been punched, kicked in the knees, she pulls her fists up at us, she punches me in the head multiple times,
She will hold us down and swing her hands around our necks like a monkey. When we try and get her off us or move her hands away to stop her punching us, she claims we hurt her and that she'll tell school, when we don't.
I just dont know what to do :( i filmed her backlash tonight which resulted in her trying to snatch my phone and try and hide it. I just feel like a useless mum and i broke down crying as she was punching me in the head the other day.
They happen for no reason as far as I see. Afterwards, I sit her down and tell her i love her and ask why she has done this and she said she doesn't know. We've tried to find other solutions like drawing, writing, punching pillows, behaviour charts, but she just always resorts to being violent.
She ripped the behaviour chart off the wall, she's smashed about 3 tablets by throwing them in a temper.

I just dont understand. Her sister is 7 and doesnt behave this way. Me and dp hardly fight and if we did, we'd never be violent to each other. It's getting us both down.
Any tips? And thank you in advance!

The perfect behaviour at school and explosion when they get home is very common with autism (and adhd), especially girls. Google the coke bottle effect. Also check out Yvonne Newbold vcb pages on facebook, very helpful. Please see your gp and push for an assessment.

Bear in mind there is great advice on here about firm boundaries. But as you have a well behaved 7 year old, you probably have good parenting skills. If your eldest is not neurotypical, it would be great to know and seek advice on parenting. My non neurotypical child never responded to any type of discipline. She only responds to positivity. And...actually...that took a while to learn, because regular, good parenting DOES include negativity (naughty step etc). So we really had to, and still have to, learn and watch our behaviour. Unfortunately outsiders don't understand and think we go too lightly on her, and repeatedly suggest consequences but I have had to cope with that. She is doing great, as is my other neurotypical child. Both young adults now. Hugs OP as it is very hard to parent non neurotypical kids. They need extra love. Your husband MUST back you though. First steps might be to talk lots with him, and do some reading together on ASD, and parenting ASD kids, to see if any strategies help, since being stuck in lockdown may continue. You need his backing, to cope with the stress.

I have a similar child, now a teenager, and she became very violent age 10 at the start of puberty.

Main difference though is that we have had massive problems with school since she was very young.

She has diagnosed conditions but I now treat her as if she has PDA as she is better if there are no demands placed on her whatsoever. That is the only way I get any peace or manage to remain physically safe.

I will say that despite very serious violence including police incidents, you are pretty much on your own managing the behaviour.

@Justwantadvice506 you're right. Your DD's behaviour is not normal and your DH needs to stop burying his head in the sand about it. Your DD needs to be assessed, this has gone on far too long and I think you suspect already that it's most likely your DD is on the ASD spectrum. The longer you leave this and normalise her behaviour then the harder it's going to be as she gets older. ASD is usually diagnosed before the age of 2 but some children display more subtle signs at that age so it can be missed.

Some brilliant advice on here, OP. MN at its non-judgey best!
I would say there's a strong chance she's autistic. What a difficult situation, not only for you and your husband, but your other child too.
I hope you get some answers soon

Example will be. No tickling or play fighting at all, no exceptions. There needs to be a quick consequence for this. But also a reward if this is rule followed everyday. A high value reward such as time on the iPad, pocket money, something immediate that she cares about.

Sharpandshiny you have to be very careful with this strategy with a demand avoidant individual. A reward can easily become just another demand and the child may engage in the unwanted behaviour just to alleviate the 'demand' the reward is imposing on them.

She will probably go wild but everyone needs to quietly sit tight behind locked door till it’s over

If a child is likely to hurt themselves it's important to stay with them, but that can still be achieved in a totally low-arousal way (no eye contact, no talking, body turned away etc).

You have a DD problem, but you have a bigger DH problem!!
He needs to understand that autism is a spectrum and it presents differently in all. My son is also 9, in all the top sets at school but really struggles with anger and has social difficulties. We've been waiting 2.5 years to see the bm euro-developmental team so you need to be looking at getting her a referral ASAP.
I'd suggest you sit down with him when you're free and have a frank discussion with him about coping strategies.
I would also talk to school as you may find there are small clues going on there which coupled with her behaviour at home, may make a clearer picture.

Has there been much discipline at home because I can tell you any child of mine would only ever do this once!!

I have a friend whose child (boy) does this and I've been appalled and the level of violence he exhibits towards his mother and she does absolutely nothing to discipline him other than to just sit there and laugh it off while he is yanking bits of her hair aout.

I used to babysit for them and he tried it with me the once and never ever did it again. I did not retaliate with violence but I made it clear to him in no uncertain terms whilst holding him on a chair the whole time I was talking to him and looking him right in the eye that he will never do it again and I meant it, he knew I meant it and never played up again.

Children need strict boundaries all of the time.

And I'm sorry but you are doing nothing to restrain her whatsoever, your husband is hiding!! Of course she isn't afraid of you.
She threatens you by saying she will report you for trying to get her off you.
Because she knows she can do exactly what she wants she has zero respect for either of you
You are rewarding her for this dreadful behaviour by sitting her down, giving her a hig and telling her you love her.
This is dreadful soft parenting, she needs firm boundaries, she needs punishment for her behaviour - she's broke three tablets then stop buying them for her for Gods sake!!! If she breaks something she does not get another one, make that very clear to her.
Write every bit of bad behaviour in a book which you tell her is going to be sent to her teachers.
Restrain her between you and ignore all the threats, put her in lockdown in a room for lousy behaviour.
Do something!
If you don't get this under control right now you will have a terrible violent teenager who will everually need to be removed by the police and who will end up in prison.

It may or may not be that your DD has ADHD and / or ASD but it sounds like it would be worth investigating with the GP and also with school. Teachers are still there and there's a lot going on to support families remotely so definitely worth a conversation with her class teacher and Senco.

You mention it seems to have escalated since lockdown. Our DS has ADHD and ASD and has find his anxiety levels have really risen due to the change in routine and setting for school work, and missing friends. It might be she's quite anxious but showing it in different ways, i.e. lashing out more. Anxiety plays a big part of ASD behaviours too.

As mentioned above, the 123 Magic book helped us and is good for ADHD and discipline and encouragement. It also helped DH and I have a coordinated approach, which sounds like it would be really useful for yourselves.

it's usually after tea it starts

I would keep a food diary throughout the day and see if there is any correlation to diet re: allergy or intolerance to any ingredients.

The outbursts could be a behavioral manifestation of feeling/being physically unwell.

I think a key focus should also be the safety and mental health of your younger child. If parents were being violent to each other, that would not be deemed a safe environment for a child to grow up in. The same applies here, growing up in fear of a sibling can cause long term psychological damage too. Maybe explain in those terms to DH? You have an equal responsibility to both children. My cousin was diagnosed with BPD at 20 but he'd already pushed his younger brother down the stairs at 13, just because he was annoying him and he wanted him to stop. Obviously not saying it's the same but atm you don't know what the issue might be and have another child to worry about so err on the side of caution.

Please get her assessed by a qualified child psychologist ASAP. It could be as benign as just throwing a tantrum, to something more serious like a personality disorder. I think the complete lack of empathy and manipulation is what makes this very serious. And the longer it is ignored, the more risk she poses of harming you, DH or your younger child (have you noticed any behaviour changes in the younger one lately?). Do you have pets at home, if so, please keep an eye on them too. No one on Mumsnet is qualified to make a diagnosis, so please do keep a video diary of her behaviour and get a referral or go private ASAP.

Finally you are not a bad parent. Your child needs professional support no parent could provide. The best thing you can do for her is ensure she gets the correct diagnosis and the help she and your family need.

Can i say if you do go down restraint you should be trained to do it safetly.

Also, if it starts after teatime, could one of you take her out for a walk then to use up some energy?

@Butterfly98 I don’t agree about ASD normally being diagnosed in under 2s. I think it’s possible for some ASD children to be picked up at that age, but it’s very common for especially HF ASD to be picked up much later. My own child appeared to be totally neurotypical at age 2. A bit mummy-centric perhaps, but nothing out of the ordinary. Even now, to an untrained eye, and in many situations, he presents as totally neurotypical. He’s doing wonderfully at school, is a delight on a play date. Collaborates and plays very nicely much of the time. It’s at home that he falls apart, partly because he feels safe, and partly because homes tend to be a lot less structured. We have rules and boundaries but the daily routine at home varies naturally during the week.

If it is ASD (and none of us can diagnose beyond saying that in your shoes we would want her to be assessed) then understanding that her outbursts are not deliberate, that during them she is overwhelmed and distressed, and that tailoring her environment might remove the triggers can help enormously.

I would strongly recommend the Therapeutic parenting books by Sarah Naish and her website. It really helped me with my son who was also ok at school but not at home.

Like many posters here, I also have 2 girls with ASD (and two without). Getting diagnosis has been massively difficult, the concept of masking was much less accepted 5+ years ago. The eldest is now 11 and also has OCD. I agree with others, go to your GP with your concerns. In our experience, school was less helpful.

I wanted to agree with another pp, what screams out is that just befor 5pm you need to get her doing something really physical. She seems to been seeking this. Swinging, monkey bars, trampoline. She needs to balance herself out with moment, hence swinging on your Dh. One of my dds is like this (but not the violent one) and she climbs and hangs off the bannisters. If you have no outdoor space, you can get these to hang from doorways, or a chin up bar.

Thank you so much everyone! Will read through these properly once I have time for a sit down! Tonight i will be doing a bit of research and i'll see how she is today,

I've noticed during lockdown that she finds it soothing sitting in the front garden with our 2 elderly neighbours either side having a chat with them from their front gardens. They were all sunbathing and chatting for 2 hours so i wonder what about this calms her?

This is absolutely not normal behaviour, or a tantrum. She needs to be referred to CAMS via the GP. If this issue isn't resolved and her underlying behaviour managed, it will only get worse.

Re the elderly neighbours - it’s the attention and also the interaction is less pressured than with her peers probably. My DD was always happy chatting away to much older and much younger people as she did not feel the pressure to say the right thing. Also she enjoyed the attention that older people seemed to have more patience and time to give!

It sounds like you and your DP are both obviously afraid of your 9yo and she is doing what she can get away with as she knows she rules the roost. Where are the boundaries/consequences? She may have some additional needs, she may not (threatening to report you to her school for abusing her shows that at least some of her behaviour is calculated/deliberate). You don't talk much about her younger sister but this situation must be utterly miserable for her and you owe it to her to get things under control. If you have to lay hands on your older DD to stop her hurting you, do it.

Just saw a post on FB from Autism Goggles that I think would reaonate with you

@JuatWantAdvice506 some of the advice you're getting about restraint and locking her down in a room for lousy behaviour would raise safeguarding concerns in my service. She is 9 years old FGS.

I really, really urge you to seek a GP appointment in the first instance; they will know who to refer on to for more specialist advice. You're getting tons of really good advice here but much of it comes from different sources with different theoretical perspectives and treatment goals for different presentations. You need help and some of that may need to be from professionals and some might come from other parents who have been where you are, but what ever you do with your DD needs to be consistent and embedded in an evidence base.

If you have to say anything to your DD at this point it should be after you and your DP have TOGETHER decided to seek a professional consultation and it should be framed in terms of your and her DF's care and concern about her and your intention to seek help to make things better in your family.

I've only read to page 7, but something has occurred to me....

forgive me, but does your DH show any signs of ASD? Some of the things he does sound a little on the extreme side of parenting (locking himself in the bathroom to avoid his DD's behaviour).

Like others have suggested, you need a safety plan. When she kicks off, how are you keeping yourselves, her and other DD safe. If DH is stronger, he takes her away from you and DD, doesn’t engage with her as others suggested but keeps her safe. Other DD gets to go to a safe place with headphones and iPad.

Well said @Sharpandshineyteeth

This would be the school (or special school) approach in UK. In mainstream she would be restrained then put in isolation, even in primary. If this doesnt work she would be excluded. The first concern would be that she doesn't harm herself or other children or staff.
She needs restraint and mustn't be allowed to harm herself or others. Physical restraint by someone stronger.
I don't know what people think GP will say. Re medical. Medication very unlikely for her age. What if she won't go to counselling, ( if and when you get a place)?
If she was bad enough to go to hospital for this condition, they would restrain her too if she tried to attack them or damage property.