20 years in it’s dawned on me...

[Treatedlikeamaid]

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

we seem to rub each other up the wrong way

This jumped out at me - no, no, no, no. The ‘we’ makes it half your problem and your responsibility!

Another excellent book I read was called ‘erosion of the soul’ - I need to check the full title later. The author basically said that there are two responses to abuse: either you submit or you resist. When you resist, though, it easily becomes characterised as conflict. So basically you are resisting his control and that becomes you are rubbing each other up the wrong way. Do you see how he is making it about both of you?

Sorry this is a continuation of my previous post:

The problem is that resisting is exhausting. As you say, you stood up for yourself three times and what you are doing is still what he wants - or at least in your mind, defined in relation to his wishes (monopoly of perception on the Biderman chart).

Monopoly of perception was the biggie for me, even after we separated, realising how much of my time was taken up responding and then having to shift towards realising I did not have to respond or justify my non-response; my ex is trying to do it now in lockdown (and to be honest, this thread has reminded me of his tactics and not to be sucked in; it is so intrusive of him). That is another story which does not belong on here but the point is that if your mind is taken up defining everything, every decision in relation to what your husband thinks (whether you submit or resist) then what is happening to your sense of self? But yes, I found the Biderman chart helpful to understand what was going on - minor but constant as you say but basically adding up to pretty much everything.

My ex was controlling about mealtimes. When you read literature on coercive control one of the things is controlling food. It was the thing that was most obvious to me but I was made to feel petty and selfish for not wanting the same as him. If he wants to eat the same thing week in, week out, that is fine - but he does not need to make you do it.

Regarding the hedge, you are an adult. The only danger I could see is height which will only get more dangerous over time. And surely then he just needs to hold the ladder, or you hold the ladder - or something. That is how partnerships work; but the dynamic you describe is how I would react if I saw my youngest child with the chainsaw.

It sounds quite suffocating to me and so draining.

Ha! 😂Smiling and waving! Makes me laugh every time! Thanks copy. I’ll try this today!
Katy thanks for pointing that out. I did not realise that’s what is happening. - just accepted it was half,( and from the wounded puzzled way he said it,) probably all, my fault. I was questioning how I was c@ausing us to rub up the wrong way, and whether I should try harder not to. Total waste of my thoughts. Another omg moment. 😮 though I can’t believe I’m totally free from fault.

So yes, I’m realising everything I do is gauged against what he will say. I find myself getting a bit antsy if I’m out too long for example.
Omg again! He’ll somehow put back the stuff I choose in tescos but get what he wants. When I organise an online shop he says he doesn’t like that supermarket. When I cook dinner he comes in at the end to take over and add stuff. This is all control isn’t it? ( or am I being a bit over sensitive. Hard to know)
You have pointed out that yes, I’ve lost my sense of self. Lost it for years. It’s coming back as I’ve learnt to put myself first and start drawing again. Like a previous person said, he loved my free spirited arty ness when we first met, and it feels like he’s tried to stop me ever since.

Which is exhausting when I stop to think about it. I will do more reading about the chart as I need to understand it more. Thank you for pointing out It sounds quite suffocating to me and so draining
It’s mad that I need to learn what is acceptable!
Ditto your comments re hedge. V helpful.
I’m honoured if this tread is helping remind you of stuff that is useful!
I also, if you guys don’t mind, need to keep posting. You are all being so supportive as I stumble around like bambi.
See what today brings!

Yes, it's all control, and you are definitely not being over sensitive.
FWIW, it's very heartening to read your thoughts in this thread, it seems you're being gradually enlightened and your wonderful personality is shining through.
I can tell you are going to leave him and be so much happier

My ex’s phrase was - ‘we need to learn to communicate better’ or ‘the problem is communication’ - and of course then I would explain, justify, argue, defend myself but actually the only way to avoid conflict was for me to do what he wanted all the time, and even then it was not good enough - the example of adding seasoning or whatever at the end of cooking is a good example. He could and would communicate for hours at the table when I already was so tired I wanted to go to bed; and then engineer an argument so I could not sleep. And so on. My fault for not being able to communicate properly.

When we went to mediation, he turned up with a folder three inches thick of all our email correspondence since we separated (and maybe before?) and sat there and argued in all seriousness that we needed to learn to communicate better. We had 20 hours of mediation and no agreement - how much communication do we need? How much time and energy (and money) did all that failed communication take?

If he says you rub each other up the wrong way, the question to ask him is why he thinks that is. Look at the statement as a parcel - don’t take it on board as a problem you need to resolve but put it metaphorically speaking back on the table between you and get on with your day. He needs to come up with an answer which shows self-awareness and is constructive. (Because at the moment it looks like the answer is ‘because you are not doing what I say). The fact that he puts back your shopping and you have an internal timer on when you are out should be major red flags to you. Control is not obvious and overt, that is why it works.

Oh crumbs. Thanks for the encouragement Emma. It means a lot.
Katy, gosh I see why you mean, he sounds absolutely exhausting and confusing and more exhausting. Sooooo well done for realising and getting out.
Your lasts para. I will do this. Your last 2 sentences. I’m beginning to think I have more red flags than a street party. They’ve just been hidden by the hot air .
It’s encouraging that you say it’s overt. For AGES I felt something was off- but as usual because he wasn’t aggressive..what am I saying. He went through a stage when he punched a hole in the wall cos I went out with someone he didn’t approve of and spent his earnings on pizza ( err, I was looking after the children) , he used to fling open the bedroom door and wake me up to yell. Ridiculous as it sounds I was so confused and anxious I couldn’t react at all.
I dismiss this because it was 5 or 6 or so years ago. He hasn’t shouted since.
Iv even just been brought a coffee! But am suspicious of his motives!
Right, wobbling slightly stunned to my computer. to work on my business- that’s my way out.

Thanks for your ..wisdom? Posts? Whatever, thanks. This is enormous x

Ah ha! I thought you were far too terrified of him "getting cross". Punching a hole in the wall.is a very very clear message from him to you that he gets out of control and your face may well will be on the receiving end of the punch next time you meet a friend with out permission. Your subconscious knows it even if your conscious mind hasn't recognised it.

You are like a dog that has been whipped. You don't have to whip it a third time. It hears the tone and immediately whimpers and hides. That's you hearing his grumpy tone. You are so well trained you even try to predict what will give the tone that preceeds the punching.

Not sure? How about this experiment. Take a stand on something. Like your three things today, choose one and continue regardless. If someone tried to stop me hedge trimming I would be "Ah, it'll be fine" put the ear defenders back on and continue. If they persisted I would say firmly "This is not open for discussion" then I'd ignore them.

I bet you feel a shudder of terror even thinking of putting your tins back in the trolley and his back on the shelf.

OP, please keep posting.

Its hard to convey the degree of horror your posts portray.

He has systematically tried to dismantle your entire person.

Art
Food
Shopping
Eating
Cooking
Finances
DIY

He never leaves you alone.

He does this with the underlying threat of domestic violence.

You are living under that threat of DV.

Make NO mistake about that.

The wall was punched to give you a firm taste of what he was capable of.

Women's Aid would be a great.
I also think you should log your number with the police.
He is capable of DV.

He is a bad man.

You are never going to have a happy marriage.

You need to plan on protecting yourself and getting away from this horror of a man and exploring your talent fully.

Well can you afford to pay someone to cut the hedge? Is it a false ecomony to leave it until its bigger and harder / more expensive? That's another financial decision that's really your department.

What would happen if you'd just booked somene to do the job and didn't say a word about it? (Before it became 'an issue' just now).

Often the best way around negative or indecisive people, or bosses (at work) who are difficult to persuade, or to reach to discuss things, is just to get on with stuff (anything that's roughly within your remit). If questioned, just look puzzled, in a 'but since when did something so trivial merit a discussion?' way. Nine times out of ten no-one cares enough to notice or mention it, or is just pleased that it's done and you're onto the next thing. If they really don't want that thing to happen, they'll mention it. But there are many things peope can and will waste hours discussing in advance, that they wouldn't bother to comment on, once it's done.

Presumably he's built up some idea of the hedge being his job and being difficult. Has he put off doing it? So you just getting on with it 'shows him up', at least in his mind. As would having to pay another man to do it. This seems fairly common with men who see themselves as 'handy' and DIY as 'man's / their remit' but who are also procrastinators. Whereas most men would just be delighted it's done and they didn't have to do it.

What's so weird from your description of those events is the way he directs your activity in such an immediate and micromanaging way and that you follow his instructions. All on the spur of the moment. Mostly after you've already started doing something - that he then tells you is the wrong thing.

Anyone else would have said 'no I'm fine and I'm doing it now' and got on with cutting the hedge. Most of us understand that we are adults and able to take our own decisions about risk. If there was any doubt, the job would have been discussed beforehand.

There seems to be no forward planning. No 'so what are we doing this weekend?' or 'Ok, I'm going to tackle a, b, c today', or even 'I'd like to get some of x done this weekend, so could you do y to help make that happen?' Or '...so I'll be out the way if you want to get on with z, if that suits you?'.

lottie why should she hire someone? She can do it. She knows she can do it. That's why she started doing it.

She knows violence lurks round the corner if she disobeys.

Hiring someone in would result in the same.

He is keeping her small so he feels big. He is stinging from being smaller than he believes he should be but instead of working to bulk himself up he diminishes her to feel bigger in comparison. It's not about the hedge.

She mentioned hiring someone as an alternative she'd considered, that he now says they couldn't afford. That's what I'm responding to. I'm making the same point I did a few days ago about him telling her they were 'not able to afford to visit her mother'; that she's the one who does the finances, so actually, she's the one who knows what can and can't be afforded. Because the odd thing was that even though she's the one who knew the true answer, she seemed to 'believe' what he told her. (Obviously he wasn't going to allow funds to be spent on her preference in that case but the point is, she has the facts to hand and should start believing those, not him).

With my ex and diy jobs I found if I started to do a job, he would come and take over. This was after him procrastinating, or not even thinking what jobs needed doing. I think perhaps it was his manly pride. (And actually I am cackhanded and likely to mess up through incompetence.)

He wasn't like yours, but sulked, put me down, and wouldn't answer me.

I've just read the thread in one go, and a lot resonates with me.

My ex was abusive, but there was never any overt violence. But the undercurrent was there. He's physically stronger, liked pretend wrestling me that I think was about showing his strength, and on a couple of occasions threw stuff.

I get you, OP about the food. Ex liked going shopping as a family, I hated it. I could do the shopping on my own in half the time, and at half the expense. (We had separate bank accounts and I was expected to pay for all the food.) One time, he'd put no end of things in the trolley just for him, then when DD put in a single, 80p box of breadsticks, he told her to put it back, we weren't buying those. for no reason, it was just because he could. So I picked up two boxes and put them in the trolley. He said nothing after that, and that's when I began to realise I was more in control than I thought.

Went to a wedding, just DD and I, as ex didn't do weddings. I had that internal timer spoken of, and started getting anxious, leaving before the end. I wore a dress, the first one in 30 years. Everyone told me I looked nice, and looking back the photos look great. Ex told me I looked like a sack of potatoes, cue instant deflation.

I walked on eggshells, the DC walked on eggshells. I suffered financial abuse and will never get that money back (thousands), we weren't married. Emotional abuse, verbal abuse, and so on.

I recently found out my late MIL thought ex was hitting me, and she'd told my dad. Wish one of them had spoken with me earlier, that would have helped.

After 3 years single, I've managed to get my head together now and am planning for my future, up to now I've been in like a recovery phase. The DC don't speak to their dad, they saw it all, and some of the abuse went their way (especially to DD).

I love being able to make my own decisions. I enjoy indulging in the TV shows, and other stuff that he thought crappy and stopped me watching. I especially love not having to perform in the bedroom or suffering his groping. I like sex, don't get me wrong, but not with him.

OP, once you're on your own, I reckon you will thrive, you actually show a lot of clear headedness, despite that he leaves you feeling confused and out of focus. I still don't talk to ex as he always had a way of twisting what I said, and leaving me feeling like I couldn't argue against him.

@TorkTorkBam yes, I am still the puppy even though we separated a few months ago. My stbxh was not violent, I thought, even in the face of him punching fences, slamming plates down on the table because our daughter didn't answer his questions about her school day to his satisfaction and hitting the brakes on the car so hard that the kids heads whipped forward and one of them burst into tears. I'm still coming out of the brainwashing.
@BitOfANameChange, agree with what you say - I am 6 months into recovery phase but I have such a long way to go. Trying to minimise my contact with his as he makes me feel so uneasy and on edge.

Tork you did make me smile, with your’aha!’
You are right I got anxious about doing anything, which of course made him crosser.
And yes, billy. Just realised tonight just how small I’ve become. I talk myself out of everything - automatically imagining him Disapproving.
This is bad.

I agree, the hedge is symbolic of everything!

I did carry on, and had to face the discussion later. -
I can’t pay someone, I can’t cut it, I’ve even borrowed a platform- I can’t use it as I might damage it and it’s not ours. He’ll pay someone in the summer. ( he’ll forget or put it off). I now can’t do anything. I think this is true of most things.
We don’t forward plan. He’ll say,‘let’s do the garden’ and maybe will, but mostly will be in his office or sitting in the sun. I’ll arrange stuff anyway, at the last minute he’ll say, ‘I’ll come’ and then say,’ but I don’t want to go there’ but not have an alternative plan. Or decide we have to go Aldi instead of where ever that was nice.
Lottie I’m wondering if it’s financial control. He’ll buy mad expensive things without warning.
Sparkly! Am sure you’re not crack at diy! Sympathies. Mines the same - whatever it is it will be wrong! Difference is, he doesn’t take over😀 just tells me to stop, I’ll do it wrong...and we are back to hedge scenario. So NOTHING gets done.
Oh gosh Bitofa, that’s awful. Scarily you’re post resonates with me. Ds chose coke but when dd chose choc milk it was too dear, I had to defend buying it. What is it with these people?! Thank you for saying I show clear headed ness, for years I’ve felt stupid and stuck and blamed myself, so that’s v good to hear. I’m very glad you are recovering and have got your head together. Well done and a massive hug x

Everything, I read this and thought oh gosh here’s me whinging when you have really been through it..then remembered dh slamming in the brakes and telling me to get out ( on dual carriageway), thumping things when I said I’d got a prt time job.
Brainwashing and recovery phase does not sound good, But I’m so glad you are out of it xxxxx

You did carry on and get the hedge done - good for you.

The lack of forward planning is extraordinary. Most people need to have some idea of what's happening next and an ability to plan and organise their own lives. Of course it's that ability, he's taking away from you. Clearly he wants to keep you on your toes, never knowing what to expect next, perpetually alert and at his beck and call. Keeping possession of your attention. It might be a little bit exaggerated to call that a torture technique but it's not far off. It certainly acts against the notion of your right to autonomy and a self-directed life.

Of course, planning ahead would require him to communicate and to put his 'cards on the table'. That would hand you knowledge and power.

Do you read? Spend time on a computer, apart from for work? Does he 'allow' you to do that? It's something that takes your attention away from him. It doesn't take you out of his sight, or prevent him from re-directing your activity though.

Honestly, the way you don't plan, he just randomly directs your activity and you 'jump to order' is not how humans behave with other people. It's more like the way people train and control dogs. Even with dogs, there's routine and affection.

People who work in jobs that require constant mental attention, like air-traffic controllers, emergency doctors etc can only do it for so many hours at a time, because it's exhausting.

It's probably been mentioned by pp but have you looked up 'hyper-vigilance'? It's an anxiety behaviour that people with PTSD display; constantly being on alert for something terrible, in some part of their brain. Exhausting and mentally crippling.

Thanks lottie!
Wow. That’s a lot to digest. I think you may have a point - I’m thinking over an eg of not planning - every year he ‘can’t talk about holidays I have to work’ ( implying I don’t) . at the last minute he’ll poo poo all my research and we’ll drive to the other end of the uk, off season, for one week. He’ll say,’well do another week later ‘ but of course we don’t. And will get v stroppy if I suggest going to my mums.

I thought it was innocuous but annoying.
Now am not so sure, and of course it’s the same in other areas.
Have looked up hyper vigilance, and I think you are right. He can catastrophise, which triggers the same anxiety I had when facing chemo. Then I can’t think straight.
He did make it very difficult for me to learn/set up small business.Recently have found someone to help, and he’s all self congratulating and rewriting history.
I can hear you all saying this is bad, and when I write ( loads, sorry!) it shocks me. But it’s spread over time...he’s changed...I am waiting for tha % of time.
His phone just rang and cold water fills my insides in case it’s bad news. I know how stressed he gets.

Gosh, just think how different life could be without him. You could make a plan for a week away - have fun planning it at your leisure - and then, it would happen!

The dual carriage way story is horrific. You are living in a high threat of violence situation alongside him constantly daring you. No wonder you are riddled with anxiety.

Have you ever spoken to Women's Aid or considered the Freedom Programme? Have you read the Abuser Profiles?

lottie is right - the point is that you never know what to expect. I heard someone from Women’s Aid talking once about ‘domestic terrorism’ and the point is precisely that you are being vigilant all the time because you do not know where or when the metaphorical bomb is going to go off.

You try to set some order by planning - he wrecks it by changing plans at the last minute - result: uncertainty and also devaluation of you (your plans are not good enough) (and probably once you get to Aldi, he is still putting things you want back).

You try to get some order by doing jobs around the house: ditto but in a different way.

You try to get some financial stability and develop your talents: ditto ditto

All backed up by actual and threatened violence (stopping and telling you to get out on a dual carriageway is violence; thumping things is violence)

You know that being violent when you got a part-time job is control, right? Not sure what the car thing was about, but ditto.

What would happen if you went to the supermarket of your choice yourself? I mean, given coronavirus only one person should go. He is working, so it needs to be you? What would happen if you told him to just stop treating you like a child with the jobs around the house? You do not need his approval to do things - he has just made you think you do (Try and work out how he is doing that to break the pattern).

But this is really papering over the cracks until you work out how to leave. I ended up traumatised from ex. It all re-surfaces when I have to engage with him (and with him, it is all about keeping me engaged, as the endless ‘communication’ shows) and the only way forward was to close it down except necessary communication about DC. That goes against the type of person I am, usually very extrovert and like talking to people - him, no way.

Keep reading, keep posting but most of all, keep working on your business and your future.

Sorry that was an x-post with yours

Try this mental trick. It is actually a "trick" to stop you using euphemisms. Any time you worry that he will "get cross" immediately reword it in your head. You are worried that he will "beat me up" or "use physical violence against me". That's your reality. You put your entire self on hold like this because he makes it 100% clear he would be extremely violent. Be careful with standing up for yourself now he will want you back in the box. If threat of violence ceases to be enough you know what he will do next.

Agree about speaking to Women’s Aid, I found them very helpful also with practical support

I'm reading this as I think I live with an abuser. It is very subtle though. It's like drip drip. Death by a thousand cuts.

My DH of 20 years patronises me, shows me very, very little love and affection. Any put down is a joke, I'm too sensitive. I've not had a compliment out of him for years even though I get them regularly from other people about lots of different things. He points out anything I have done wrong constantly. My house is spotless but he will point out a tiny cobweb in a corner. Like OP's name, I am treated like a maid. He has a very well paid job whereas my p/t job is quite low paid as it is local and fits in round school and term time and he doesn't have to do anything for the DC. My DH gets massive bonuses around year end and will do things like buy himself a new car (that sits in the garage whilst I drive DC around in old car), gadgets etc. and won't even buy me a box of chocolates out of it despite working p/t and doing EVERYTHING around the house and for him and the DC.

Over the years I have no confidence left, no self love and no self esteem. I'm confused as to whether he has done this or it is just inside me and will follow me if/ when I leave. A counsellor once said to me that she didn't understand why I rely on other people i.e. my DH, for my self esteem.

DH has been threatening to leave me for the past year. This has both terrified me and also made me feel a bit of hope for change. I just don't know. If I wasn't a coward perhaps I would leave him. My DC are still youngish and I worry about money and drastically altering their lifestyle. When we nearly split last year he said he would play hardball with me if I gave him any trouble after he left.

I have thought long and hard about it and have decided that I never want to live with a man again or be married. It's not just DH, I just think men are really selfish. My dad, uncles, brothers, male cousins, friends DH's are all shits TBH. The men I went out with pre DH treated me like shit too. I know that there must also be an issue with why I let them, so realise its my problem too. Just don't think I will bother again. A counsellor told me that somewhere along the way, I learnt not to rock the boat and I don't know my worth.

Having decided to stay for the moment, I am not going to leave my DH until my DC are at least 2 years older, when I have worked out I would be much better financially off. Over the past year I have got a better job, added more skills to my CV and references, saved £150 a month in my secret account and got copies of all paperwork. Not sure if I am as stupid as he thinks and not sure if I am a coward for staying but if it does end I will have a buffer and I won't be hit from the side.

Sorry for long post.