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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

20 years in it’s dawned on me...

994 replies

Treatedlikeamaid · 20/04/2020 11:57

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

OP posts:
Vodkacranberryplease · 09/07/2020 08:58

Can you control his behaviour? Well you are welcome to spend the next 10 years trying, but in the experience of myself and every other person who has lived with one of these, the answer is, drumroll.... no.

I'll recommend you a book (old fashioned paper kind) called how to be your own best friend by dr Paul A Hauck. If you do nothing else this book will save you. He has techniques to control partners like this - he's a Rational Emotive Therapist (so a lot like cbt in some ways). It's a really old book and he was one of the forerunners of this.

IF your partner can be controlled this will do it. He's a clinical psychologist too - this isn't a 'self help' book and you need to follow his advice. I appreciate you have a wonderful counsellor but this is also something you could discuss together.

darleyanderson.com/authors/dr-paul-hauck
Most of his books would work but this has all of the technique but some great things to use for yourself. Maybe the best book ever.

I don't think a replacement for the counselling but his technique is incredible, so that I would just lift and use 100% (80% won't work - it's like dog training, inconsistency is your enemy). The rest you can discuss with your lovely counsellor. He's very clear on the ways we believe our own nonsense about not being good enough, deserving etc and challenges that quite robustly!

Vodkacranberryplease · 09/07/2020 09:04

@KatySun GREAT link. GREAT info. Oh they love to get you all churned up. Mine (biz partner) ruined every holiday and business trip by starting a MASSIVE fight just before (night before). So triggering just reading that. I spent almost 11 years in constant stress. I'm amazed I'm still alive frankly - I'm amazed any of us are.

I'm at an age (50s) where you would not think starting again would be easy - but it was and is. Hell I joined tinder at 46 and had a blast! There is no bad time to start again. There is always hope and even with kids and no money and feeling old, or broken or useless there is a whole new life waiting. Always.

billy1966 · 09/07/2020 09:40

@Vodkacranberryplease

What books would you recommend if any, that might be suitable for teenage girls?

My girls have a wonderful father and husband as an example....but I know that is zero protection from getting caught up with one of these fxxkwits🙄

It gives me the genuine chills to think of them ending up with one, especially as I am an older parent..

Justtryingtobehelpful · 09/07/2020 11:18

@billy1966 opening essay of Power book on nacarrism has a great Cinderella analogy which would be good. You can access it via the sample on Kindle.

The shark explanation, this is a good explanation of how and why to refuse guys who try to chat you up by it secretly give you the ick:
www.google.com/amp/s/www.oomm.live/the-shark-cage-metaphor-spotting-potential-abusers/amp/

The opening chapter of this book is a great read:
Power
amazon.co.uk/POWER-Surviving-Narcissistic-Collection-Narcissism/dp/1945796324&ved=2ahUKEwikqYzdkJXqAhWJQUEAHSVBDF8QFjAMegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1ZCj-0LUkQfcT-QQGkUm_A]]

billy1966 · 09/07/2020 14:15

Thank you so [email protected] check those out👍

Vodkacranberryplease · 09/07/2020 14:47

That wasn't me it was @Justtryingtobehelpful.. I have no idea re books for teens but think prepping them is a great idea!

The one thing I hear time and again is women doubting their own judgement and not realising it's a pattern. Even I got caught up believe the bs (no one likes you, no one would go out with you) etc though I could see the shitty games and fought tooth and nail. Didn't help of course. Not one bit.

Treatedlikeamaid · 11/07/2020 08:02

Hi, all. Have been focussing on mum, as find myself thinking of his nibs all the time.
Counsellor useful- tho what she says seems obvious at the time. Just realised she concentrates more on what I’ll do about mum, and how I handle family taking more responsibility. When I mention dp she writes stuff down, but doesn’t comment. I’ll ask her, but I’m thinking that’s to say it’s heard, but She moves on to mum - or stuff that concerns me. I guess She’s saying what’s more important is Me learning to respect my different roles, trust my instincts and make decisions. Which is exactly what you guys are saying - and somewhere I read Get them out of your head and focus on what YOU think. I Mentioned That I realised that I am habitually denying myself so many things now, it’s an effort to let myself go on a walk, and no wonder I find getting stuff done difficult - I am denying myself from doing all sorts as Like a lot of mums, I somehow put myself last. I did say bro doesn’t like him and I’m fed up of thinking about him, she said I should have nipped it in the bud ( like on the thread Tork mentioned), and now Its got very unbalanced. That I’ve been using a lot of effort to stay stuck, and now I’m using the same effort, but redirecting it. I need to decide what I think a good relationship is.
And that is scary. Thank you very much for the book recommendation- I remember them from when I was little, they are all very good. Will order when I get back.
Bro arrived last night and lovely to see mum perk right up and lots of jolly chaos. Love kids to be here too. Would have to go get, but won’t mention it till after Tuesday When dh has a chat with a company. To be fair to him, he is massively struggling with redundancy after health issue 2 years ago which also knocks your confidence but now I’m learning there are very different ways of handling that.
Got a couple of nice texts off him. ..he’s suddenly all jolly, so that’s a game isn’t it. Or maybe he’s Coping better. I’m Only texting back.
Thanks for listening to mad ramble xxxxxx

OP posts:
ThickFast · 11/07/2020 08:38

Glad your brother is there too. Have you decided when you’re going to go back? You should defo ask counsellor why she doesn’t talk much about your husband.

RandomMess · 11/07/2020 09:57

You DP does the nice nasty cycle to keep you reeled in and believing when it was nasty you deserved it for some reason and if you are perfect Mr Nice will stay!

If he was nasty all the time you would have left years ago...

KatySun · 11/07/2020 10:28

Of course he is jolly - he offloaded all his mental load onto you!
More thoughts later Flowers
Enjoy your time with your brother there too.

TorkTorkBam · 11/07/2020 10:37

There is a pattern you describe throughout your thread.

He sends nice text or is nice in general conversation. You think, oh that's good him being so reasonable, now's a good time to talk to him about things that matter. You start talking. He destroys you.

The texts are bait. They have been the whole time you've been away. Test it if you like. Call him and test it out. I would recommend having a faked deadline/exit planned so you can end the call after 3 mins when you see how it is going. Someone at the door, doctor on the other line, mum needs help, etc. Cut yourself off mid sentence with the excuse and say got to go I'll message you later. then hang up on yourself.

billy1966 · 11/07/2020 13:06

@Justtryingtobehelpful

Apologies!

Many thanks for the recommendations.👍

Treatedlikeamaid · 12/07/2020 15:01

Thanks everyone.
Thanks tork. Will try this - I’m still v anxious to call home. Reading a lot and Find myself convincing myself I’ve got it all wrong.Brother and friend pitched up and immediately have a laugh mending Internet and stuff. Even getting stuck in the van is just practical and A laugh getting out of the stuck situation. Very different!

OP posts:
RandomMess · 12/07/2020 15:34

You haven't got it wrong, everyone who is a step back form the situation so clearly!!

KatySun · 12/07/2020 16:16

Why do you think you have got it all wrong? What have you got all wrong?

Do you mean by having got it all wrong that your understanding that your partner has been abusive and controlling is wrong? Or do you mean that you have got it all wrong by not being the assertive person your counsellor suggests who nips it all in the bud? I think I need a bit more clarity on what you think you have got all wrong.

In the meantime, I am going to go back to your previous post which I did not reply to properly.

I am afraid I think your counsellor does not have a good understanding of how coercive control works. The point is, at the start, there is nothing obvious to nip in the bud. The patterns are not clear, and of course we are socialised to think that relationships are hearts and flowers. The roots of controlling behaviour are close to what society considers romantic. For example, boyfriend says he loves you and always wants to be with you - oooh, hearts and flowers until slowly you realise actually this means that it is difficult to see your own friends and family. Or he buys you clothes, because he loves you - with the subtext of this is what he wants you to wear. And maybe you should wear your hair a certain way because that he how he likes it. These examples might not be relevant to your circumstances but my point is that there is usually nothing obvious to nip in the bud. There will be things that made you think Hmm but at the time, you dismissed them because overall, the hearts and flowers won out.

And then let’s say there are some more overt attempts to control or there is more clear emotional manipulation. By this point you are pregnant, your friends and family know you as a couple, they think everything is fine. So you wonder if the little things which you are noticing matter, whether you are imagining them, whether there is something to be nipped in the bud or whether you are imagining it.

Then of course, you have a partner who spends his time see-sawing between more over emotional manipulation and abuse, and kindness, who is invested in you not nipping it in the bud. So of course you think the kind person is the real person, there are so many possible explanations for the negative behaviour, and then you are in the cycle you have described on here.

Which bit of that do you nip in the bud? Because it is not one thing. It is a web which has been woven. So the better metaphor is not nipping in the bud, which implies it can be sorted, done and dusted, with one action, but unwinding yourself and getting free of all the emotional manipulation and confusion, trying to get clarity and that cannot be done overnight.

Of course we all have roles but in the end, you are one person living one life and I prefer my life to have cohesion.

I also think (and this is not a criticism because I do it too) that there is still a big element in what you are saying of ‘if only I change how I feel or act about x, y or z, then things will be fine’. So if I stop putting myself last or I more easily make myself go for a walk, then the situation will improve. This implies the failing is in you. Whereas I think a) that is the wrong way around (if the situation was different you would find it much easier to put yourself first and go for a walk) and b) you are adding to the burden of how you should be/what you need to do.

What if I told you that you have not done anything wrong, that you do not need to be different, that there is nothing you could have done differently because you are who you are and that person is just lovely and fine the way they are? What if all that was true and it is the situation that you are in which is wrong? That you could not make the right decisions twenty or fifteen or ten or however many years ago because of the spider’s web being woven around you? Would you be kinder to yourself? Because all I see is you adding to the burdens of what you should be doing differently.

It is so much easier to think that if we do x, y or z then the situation will improve than to realise that no matter what we do, then some things will always be the same. Your partner will not change. You cannot change him. I also don’t think you can or should fundamentally change yourself either. You can change the way you react or what you do of course but that has to come from you because it is what you want to do. Spending all one’s time nipping entitled and emotionally manipulative behaviour in the bud is not really an attractive proposition.

KatySun · 12/07/2020 16:17

That is my first (and long) point. The second is how much private time you will get to talk to your brother if his friend is also there.

Justtryingtobehelpful · 12/07/2020 16:34

@KatySun Boom! Excellent post! 😁 I agree, it's the slow boiled frog analogy. You're only noticing now how hot the water is and wondering what you can change about yourself to be able to tolerate the temperature. Whereas, you should be considering how the hell to get out of the water and confronting the person controlling the gas dials.....

KatySun · 12/07/2020 17:23

Indeed so justtrying

I wonder what your counsellor thinks about divorce.

My final point on reflection is that I imagine you have tried at some point in twenty years to push back. You will have done. You have agency, you are not and have not been a passive person. And just like we have seen on this thread, and as you have explained, there have been consequences for that pushing back. So you live with the anxiety and threat of what happens when you do push back.

You have done amazingly well to get this far, and you will continue this journey you have started. Courage Flowers

KatySun · 12/07/2020 17:24

Sorry everything from the second line onwards was for Treated

Treatedlikeamaid · 15/07/2020 13:20

Thanks Katy and just . It’s not that I’m not replying, it’s that at the moment I don’t know what to write. Or indeed think.You are, as just says, spot on.
And yes, I am still trying to convince myself I’m overreacting and if I just change....and yes thanks - I’ve heard the boiled frog but hadn’t actually occurred to me to extend it to who is controlling the dials. good analogy. Thank you for the courage. Right, I’ll stop rewriting this, and do something energetic. Thanks again.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 15/07/2020 14:00

You really aren't overreacting.

You are clearly talented and capable but after decades of his poisoned drip drip drip telling you that you aren't...

Your DB can see exact who your DP is and he must have often wondered how is amazing, confident sister has become a shadow of herself Sad

Put yourself and your NEEDS above his, every single time.

IdowhatIwantnow · 15/07/2020 15:17

Hi @Treatedlikeamaid,

I've just finished reading through this entire thread and I am so amazed at your strength and determination! You also seem like a really fun and creative person that I'd love to be friends with if we were in the same country. :)

I'm a recent newlywed and things went to shit immediately after we got married. My life right now revolves around maintaining his anxiety levels, which is exhausting and I'm worn out already. I started my own thread as a journal of sorts, because too many details under another user name outed me. Maybe one day I won't care about being outed.

We bought a dream house in another state, where he is living currently because it's easier to telework from there. I'm in my own house, and was emptying it getting it ready to sell, when I had an epiphany of sorts. This came after he told me in an email that I needed to up my meds. He's putting all the blame on me for our issues.

Nope! I called my realtor and said there was a family crisis and that I have to postpone listing my house!

I'm sat here in an empty house with only my bed and a folding chair, but I'm emotionally safe. I told DH that I don't feel comfortable moving to another state away from my support system an therapist until I know I'm safe emotionally in the new house.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack your thread! you are on the verge of a huge breakthrough and I can't wait to read all about your new business and how you're so much happier with your kids and being near your mom!!

Keep going!! You are a rockstar!!!

everythingbackbutyou · 15/07/2020 18:18

@KatySun, to borrow from Ellen deGeneres, "Are you a carpenter? Because you NAILED it!". My relationship played out exactly as you describe. Over 20 years I went from thinking how lucky I was to be with such an awesome person to thanking God for every day I am out of the relationship". Strangely, at the beginning I had no desire to nip in the bud the fun filled trips, romantic gestures and declarations of undying love...

billy1966 · 15/07/2020 21:49

@IdowhatIwantnow

Well done for having such a timely epiphany!

Read up on the "sunken cost fallacy" if you feel yourself weakening.

Life is just to precious to waste.
Flowers

KatySun · 16/07/2020 06:52

I also do not think you are over-reacting and yes, it is easier to try to convince yourself that because the alternative probably looks quite terrifying.

For me, I just reached a point where I snapped and thought ‘enough’, I cannot do this anymore. But as I said before, even when we separated, it was like just slowly expanding a circle to get more space around me. It took five years and court to finally get it to stop and we are still not actually divorced. It was only really that process that convinced me I had not been over-reacting. It took me a long time to get out the other side, which is not meant as a horror story but a cautionary tale, because for the first few years of separation, as I had said before, I was still thinking if I just do this, or explain that, then we can sort the separation and divorce out. Exactly the same pattern of thinking which I had through the marriage. But all the time I was just giving him ammunition to keep me engaged. We had hours and I mean hours of mediation. There are files and files of legal correspondence. I learnt the term paper abuse for someone who keeps you embroiled in a legal process. So I have stopped that too. It was the same thing about the methods of control not being overt.

It is a learning process. I hope you are able to trust your own understanding of your experiences and find a way through (and out of) this situation. That might not be this year (much as I would like you, your brother and your mother, with the help of universal credit and a lawyer, to come up with a solution that allows you to get your own place when you return to England and not go back), but it will be at some point. You do not have to live with the anxiety of how your husband will react all the time and adapt your own behaviour to fit.

The alternative is to keep trying to carve out more space around you within the marriage. Whether that is possible within the marital home, I do not know because I did not follow that path.

everythingbackatyou I am sorry this was also your experience.

IdowhatIwantknow I replied on your thread. Good luck Flowers

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