20 years in it’s dawned on me...

[Treatedlikeamaid]

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

Torktork I did the same, but now I mostly use "want". I want to lose weight, I want to be more organized. It makes me feel that it's not someone else's decision or judgment, but mine. And if I don't do the thing, it's fine, because I know I'm doing the best I can. (You see, I'm working a lot on my self compassion, can you see? ;) )

Ah, the dreaded ‘change’ word.

It puts the onus on you to consider and modify your behaviour. And if he did not mean it, then he should not have said it. Simple.

The things which change people are life events, and it is internal to that person. He cannot tell you to change.

Let’s say you said, okay, how do you want me to change and then did what he said? What price your sense of self? It is kind of controlling, really, because it opens up a niggle that you are not quite good enough the way you are. That definitely goes in the parcel on the table. It is okay, the parcel is like a portal to this massive dump, you can put as much as you like in it, where it belongs.

That is interesting tork and bringon because I think there is a difference for me at least between should/could which is the expectations of others and want, which is what I want to do.

After we separated, I had to do a lot of meditation and reflection to get rid of the internal critic and the should, which was framed in his expectations (and my parents and society’s, in some ways also, to be fair) and really meditate on the things which are important to me. So now, aside from looking after my children and doing my job day to day, I have two clear goals which I want to do. Not should or could but want to do - and which motivate me beyond the daily round of chores - because I need to work on them over and above.

I need to dig out the meditation again because I cannot remember the details but it really helped me focus on what was important to me, not the expectations of others.

Anyway, I am really tired so apologies if I am making no sense.

I like the want. I shall use that sometimes.

What I like about could is that it helps me prioritise. Sure I could do those things but there is only so much I can do at once.

What's the diagnosis @Treatedlikeamaid?

What do you have to change so he can stay the same?

Be less awesome? Are you making him look bad in comparison?

Maybe he wants you to be nicer to him after he has been awful to you.

Thanks all. I may just do that zaphod😀
This may be long and rambling, sorry!
Busy few days...interview for job ! What a morale boost! with very inspiring lady. In similar business. When he learnt she’s got 7 staff he got all, ‘ you shvould do your business, not make her richer’ 😀I’d love to achieve something like her. - mainly the lovely environment and atmosphere. didn’t realise how tatty our home is !
dh was asking questions about biz and I realised later, was taking over - ‘change the name to x, use square space not wix...‘
Again I didn’t realise (!) until chatting to my incredible mum who said, ‘it’s YOUR business, slap some paint on the wall And get on with it‘ now realised Ive been seeing it as something I kind of shuffle along at but darent actually do and own -in case he notices and doesn’t approve. This is the revelation thread!
Also ...massive...saw an amazing counsellor. She said, what you guys said. 🙏I only described how an argument goes and she immediately said ‘there’s 2 types of miscommunication in marriage and you are in the type that is actually considered abusive’
Ulp. But very nice to have it put so clearly. ( again! Thanks guys) She said , I’ve colluded, it won’t change until I do, and is sending me a thing about assertiveness, and rights. If it helps anyone, pm me and I’ll forward it.
So, another revelation. Lot to digest
On top of the constructive comments above. I took your supermarket queue advice on board and chatted at this interview as if she was more of a friend. She was really nice. So thanks, that’s a real morale boost.And shows me there is a life beyond this wierd bubble.
Again, thanks all of you, without you I’d still be where I’ve been for years - miserable and not knowing why.

Oops posted above without seeing there were posts on the last page, ( doh) sorry! Going to have a proper read and coffee later on xxx

I apologise if this question is ignorant or out of order - but is he suddenly starting to support your business & offer suggestions so that he can claim half the business is his, having had so much input into it? So that he can point & say "I suggested that, this was my idea" etc?

I don’t know about you having colluded, though. Abuse as you describe happens gradually, and works in such a way that it is initially dressed up as love and care and then you get emotional manipulation, threats of violence, whatever to back up the control on his part, interspersed with caring and love so you don’t know which way is up; it is only quite far down the road that you realise actually, I did not consent to be treated like this and understand what is going on.

Abusers don’t come with signs on their heads. And in my own experience, I decided that it was too exhausting to have to be assertive in my own home and relationship the whole time, and that I would rather be on my own or with someone who considered my needs because they were a nice person, not being I continually asserted them.

I don’t know. Yes, your relationship is abusive, and I am glad the counsellor has helped with clarity on that. But I do not think this is because you colluded in it. I also think the assertiveness and boundary-setting is really important to carve out more space for yourself. But it is not your fault you are twenty years down the road with an abusive marriage. No-one gives you a book on how abuse works (they should!); we fundamentally believe that people are decent human beings and won’t be abusive whilst also professing to love us.

Hi treated. Just something that springs to mind as I read your posts and note your husbands reaction to your growing confidence. And this is by no means a criticism as I have been in a similar situation to you. I remind myself daily “you are the person who teaches other people how to treat you”. I’ve allowed all sorts of people treat me appallingly in the past. I’ve deferred to ‘their greater knowledge” on all kinds of things and been so unsure of myself. Not no more! Without being aggressive or mean or anything like that. Just gently assertive. I now have limits. When you’re of a gentle nature and a people pleaser it takes a while to realise you’re just as good as other people. But you are. It’s like a fog clearing.

Do not talk to him about your business or her business at all.

Imagine you were a forensic accoutant, a criminal lawyer, a therapist, a political aide, celebrity assistant, Brexit negotiator support.

There are lots of jobs where it is completely normal to almost never talk about work at home. You certainly wouldn't seek or take advice from members of your household.

Start being more professional. That means not discussing your commercial plans, SWOT, tech plans etc with people outside your business inner circle.

The business inner circle definitely does not include random family members.

Your business and your new job will be where you nurture your strong parts and grow grow grow.

Any involvement at all by him, even chat, even knowing what you are doing, well, that's like inviting a toddler with a RoundUp spray gun into your newly planted walled garden. Lock the door.

Tork can i just say as someone with a crippling lack of self confidence, a very fledging business and no idea what im doing - your posts are incredible and I've printed a couple off as well to remind me why i should keep going

Omg @Treatedlikeamaid you are a legend! I knew you could do it! And I love love love your counsellor, please keep going.

As for your business keep going, or take the job, or do both but do not discuss with your abuser, as Tork says. Deflect him if you need to with made up BS about how hard it is and you are giving up etc. Whatever to get his nose out of your business, as he will literally keep probing till he finds a way in. Let him think he has done.

You kind of need him out of your life now, pretty much. He's a massive liability. Stupid, unstable, driven by his ego, and abusive. Would you willingly live in the same house as a tiger? (Bad analogy because tigers are beautiful but danger wise it works).

Honestly this man is just a huge great problem that needs to go away right now.

Right now your challenge isn't how to make you better because I believe it's all just right there. Look how well you have done! Your biggest challenge is how to remove the obstacle that is him. As fast as possible. Because once he's gone it will all be SO EASY.

@ginderella20

I apologise if this question is ignorant or out of order - but is he suddenly starting to support your business & offer suggestions so that he can claim half the business is his, having had so much input into it? So that he can point & say "I suggested that, this was my idea" etc?

You're probably right. He wasn't interested when it appeared the business would be of little benefit to him. But now that circumstances are different, he's taking an interest. And from all the OP's posts, he wouldn't be interested unless there's something in it for him.

OP, I'd be wary of anything your DH suggests about the business. It's yours, do it the way you want to. If you want to be sure he can't claim credit for anything, makes notes about the changes, if any, you want to make. Evernote sounds good, it'll be date stamped there, and down in black and white that the changes, or anything to do with the business, are all yours.

Remember he is an idiot who has largely failed at business yet still thinks he can tell you what to do. Get to fuck mate. Take advice from people who know what they are on about. Those people will only offer advice when you request it, then they will quiz you about who, what, what you want to know before they offer advice. It would be a conversation. Half the insights would come from them being your rubber duck.

@TorkTorkBam this made me laugh so much 😁

Absolutely true of course. The ex business partner spent so much time telling me how to run the business and all I could think is 'my dog has more business sense than you'. Now he's gone despite the fucking carnage he left behind followed immediately by coronavirus we are actually doing extremely well. As we were before he started poking his nose into things he knew nothing about. It's arrogance. Breathtaking fucking arrogance. And a gigantic ego.

Trust your own instincts crazydays and talk to people who care about YOU and what YOU want. Your mum sounds great. Tork is obviously a total pro. I have a bit of experience here and there (generally not much of a failure at business/work though dire at many other things), there's loads of amazing other people on MN and as he vanished from your life you'll find you attract people who can be there for you.

Get rid though. I keep saying it but managing him and keeping him away from what you are trying to do will be soul destroying. I speak from experience - and I do not need assertiveness training. There's literally no way to have someone like that around and to be ok.

I've just RTFT and am wondering why you don't just leave him @Treatedlikeamaid?

Thanks, Your comments really help, thanks for bearing wit me while I stumble about like bambi on a bad day.
Chew chew, that made me laugh, and I agree, tork is ( you all are) pretty up there with the inspiration. I think you are right - that’s why I get grumpy! He’s telling me what to do, not asking what I want to do. Doh!
Vodka, I hear you. I also just re read your ‘this is NOT over’ post, which i imagine with a stirring tune behind it.
Hi Level, because I’m only just realising what’s going on, mad though that sounds. I feel I need to regroup atm. it’s like I’m just beginning to thaw out - and find Me again.
As katy says, I should leave him (other people telling me)
I could leave him ( me telling me. Big difference). Am not quite at ‘could’.

I got offered the job, yay! It’s full time, minimum wage, but lovely people...question...
Plus side..It’s nice people and a dash of a different life and atmosphere and learning.

Down side...It’s a lot of commitment, and I’ll struggle to build my own business as well, I suspect It won’t happen. There’s a lot to do.
Dh actually chatted about it, his view is it won’t help the family as the kids will be alone all summer, the house will suffer, and doing housework will cut into his time getting his business off the ground. ( yes, i know, but then he suggested we could divide up the jobs between us all)( I actually think he’s realising just what there is to do thanks to lockdown).
He suggested I take some of my pension and pay myself the equivalent wage for a few months while I get the business going, and the question is, how much do I believe in my business.
I can’t work out what’s for his benefit, what’s for mine, and wha to do! In a way, I’d like to do the job part time, or for a bit, just to get some stimulation. But I wonder if I’m putting a hurdle in my way.
Confused! answers on a postcard Please! Winner gets a 💐

TAKE THE JOB. Ignore your twat of a Dh. Do NOT draw down your pension. Get proper financial advice. Whatever your DH says, ignore ignor ignore. This mans does not care about you, your interests, your success: he only cares about how you will affect his life. He may dress it up as concern for the children. It is not concern for the children. He just doesn’t want to have a harder life himself, and he sounds like one of those total cunts who draws strength and pleasure from putting others down.

The thing I find most unbelievably appalling in this whole thing is that he bullies you into not seeing your mum. She’s 87!!! She might not be around for much longer. At this rate, she may pass away before you get to hug her again. Take the job, have it paid into your bank account. DO NOT TELL HIM HOW MUCH YOU EARN. Keep it for yourself. He WILL start making plans to use your money to pay for things he pays for so he has more spare money for himself. So you will find that you are working harder than ever and only lining his pockets.

And as soon as you are able, book a flight to see your mum. In fact, I’m so angry and shocked that he has stopped you from seeing her that I would buy you the flights myself. Or come and pick you up to take you to the airport. Anything to help you. It devastates me that he has taken you from her like that and privileged not upsetting his sister he dislikes over your ageing - and based on her calls with you - brilliant mum. I bet he wants to keep you apart because your mum at the very least raises you up and strengthens you, and might even encourage you to challenge or leave him.

Take the job @Treatedlikeamaid

Your husband doesn't want you to do so, because he very likely feels he'd lose some of his influence over you as you'd be physically out of the house and mentally more in tune with other people who will treat you differently/better than he does.

I think your self confidence would improve if you were away from him, getting mentally stronger, seeing your actual worth, getting paid for doing a good job and being appreciated for it - and not what he tells you that you are worth.

Also he'll have to step up and take on some of the responsibilities at home that you are managing.

DON'T draw down your pension!! That's part of your long term financial security for you and your children in the future. Hold onto it with both hands! In fact, add to it as much as you can in the new job.

Also: have your salary paid into your own, personal bank account to which he doesn't have access.

This new job could be the beginning of a better life for you. Don't let him talk you out of it.

Strength to you OP. 🌹

That’s amazing that you got offered the job! My first instinct is to go for it. But that may be because your DH said the opposite and he doesn’t have your best interest at heart. And it sounds like it could be a real boost for you socially if the woman is really nice. Maybe earn some money, learn and for a bit and then set up your business? But ignore me! What do YOU think is the best thing? For you?

The answer is very simple because it is in your last paragraph - you say ‘I would like to take the job part-time, or for a bit’.

Taking your husband out of the picture, the reality is this: we are in the middle of a pandemic, the economy is suffering and will suffer and your family has no guaranteed income from what I can gather. Minimum wage or not, the job provides a guaranteed income. There is no guarantee another job for either of you will come along soon (unless you are virology researchers or otherwise medical). So here is a chance for some guaranteed money to come into the house. Even better, it is a job you would like to take.

Ask yourself this: why now, when you have the opportunity to work outside the home, to meet people outside the home, to earn money of your own, is he suggesting that you draw on your pension (your future security) and work on your business? Is this a particularly timely moment for your business? That would be the only reason to consider it. Otherwise you can keep it ticking along in the background until circumstances are better.

The lie is in the fact that he has brought the children into it. There is your emotional manipulation right there. These poor neglected children will suffer if Mum goes out to work. He won’t get to do what he wants to do. Well, let me get out the world’s smallest violin. His concern is not about your business, it is about his life changing even more than it has. (I do have some understanding for that, but the reality is that many, many people’s lives have and will change, and you are being proactive and making sure that you take the concrete opportunity you are offered; I would do it, and quite frankly, there might come the time when he also needs to take a job which detracts from his business time because paying the bills is more important).

The household chores can be split, he can work on his business in and around looking after the children and doing his share of the chores. The children will soon be able to see their friends again.

So to him you say something like, I have accepted the job because it is more important for the family to have some financial security over the summer and for me to retain my pension.

Then no more discussion about it, but focus on what needs done regarding childcare and chores to make this work so that you are not left with the double-burden of work and domestic stuff. This is the time for your assertiveness.

And I need to say I agree entirely with what nagsnovalballs says about the fact that you have not been able to see your mum.

The point is, if you have an independent income, this gives you financial autonomy. If you are out and about in the world, then this gives you social autonomy. You will meet people who will be good contacts going forward for your business. Financial and social autonomy will help you carve out more space for yourself (and envisage the ‘could’ in terms of leaving him).

If you read the descriptions of coercive control, it includes things like isolating you from family, stopping you going out to work - this is not done by simply saying no, you are not doing it (that would be too obviously controlling), but putting barriers in your way and weaving a web of obligation through emotional manipulation that makes it hard to do these things. If you stop and think about it, when you had money coming into the house from his job, why could you not get on a plane and see your mother? It is bonkers.

So step one: take the job. Put on your metaphorical tin hat and ignore the fall out.

step two: make sure some of the money goes into an account of your own.

step three: book a flight once pandemic restrictions are eased.

Step four: go.

Now if you can do that, and I would be aiming to do it by the autumn, then the ‘could’ with everything else will become easier.

So again he thinks he has the right to dictate to you what to do...

That job will enable you to leave!

There is no guarantee his business will succeed.

Tell him that you are taking to job and he can WFH over the summers and juggle his hours to be with the DC and you will both get equal leisure time.

He wants you stuck at home dependent on him...