20 years in it’s dawned on me...

[Treatedlikeamaid]

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

I can't tell you how enlightening it is to find out about JADE dynamics, and I hope the OP is finding this help too. Are there any books you would recommend about the Master and Servant dynamic?

I also see it as something that you can do to yourself that is dysfunctional - minimising or blunting or dismissing your true feelings - taking the colour, intensity and sharpness out of your needs and wants to make them acceptable.

It often shows up when there is a “but” or a “because” in the middle of the sentence.

Oh Crackling, have you ever heard the saying that you know you are in the house of an abused woman when you see a bookshelf full of self-help books?

Maybe about feeling worthy - possibly don’t believe that you are entitled to take you place in the world comfortably - to assert and take/implement your boundaries, wants and needs without commentary.

have you ever heard the saying that you know you are in the house of an abused woman when you see a bookshelf full of self-help books?

Not heard that ! But my bookshelves are bowed with them!

It was my birthday recently, a big milestone one, and on the day I realised that the dynamic in the house was different. The criticism was switched off, I could make choices without having to defend or justify them. I wasn't going to be "doing the wrong thing". It was wonderful but it only lasted a day. Interesting that this dynamic could be switched on and off though.

I am actually in tears now, when I think how much of my life I've wasted apologising for myself (long before my current relationship too). It's held me back in so many ways. It's stunted me at work.

Thank you so much for your help to realise this.

Bookshelf full of self help books means they are not solving your problem, which typically means you have wrongly diagnosed your problem and/or you are in denial about something.

@Prettyvase - thank you!

Oh my gosh, What a wonderful, long, funny and very useful discussion!
Another long reply I’m afraid!
Crackling, I’m so sorry, that you are sad, and I’m so glad you are - if that makes sense! You’ve realised and now you can totally rock this, go you xxxxIt’s not for me to say, but I really recommend a counsellor. You can do it yourself, but a counsellor will, I think, show you the way. It’s like being given a map instead of wandering around a desert in your own.
A good hypnotherapist might help too. ( and it’s wonderfully relaxing!)
Apparantly self help books can often not work also because they are not taken in and internalised.

Very interesting that you say it can be turned on and off.

What, omg, that’s quite a story. I’m so sorry you got involved in such a nasty piece of work. And I’m so impressed that you have got out. You are amazing. That’s an amazingly story. I’m joining in Gutterton s happy dance x yaaay!

Thanks for the super clear explanation about JADEing, katysun.
Another omg moment. This is exactly what I do/ did, and I didn’t realise I was doing it, and it’s not normal.It’s certainly exhausting - then when you do get out, you spend the whole time being nervous and guilty, and almost glad to get home . Next time you are relieved to make an excuse to your mates so you don’t have to go through it all again.

Thanks Charlotte. My counsellor said that ( in theory) if I change my responses, he’ll change his.
Blooming confusing though, because now he’s being total Mr Jolly.
He Even suggested a cuddle..eww! - He seems to think one hug means ill immediately jump his bones.
in the past he’s said,’he deserves it because he earns the money’ . that didn’t sound so bad in my head, until I just wrote it down.

But it ties in with what you say Gutterton - you dismiss your true feelings and eventually you are so busy squashing them down that you are exhausted and grey and dull.

I’m wondering if this and being nice is the reeling back in that KatySun mentioned earlier...oh of course, it’s the pattern! 1) Be a knob, 2) realise you’re about to get caught out, 3) be super nice, until you get a shag, which seems to be some sort of symbol, , then relax and carry on as normal till the next blow up. Gosh, how could I not realise. Also just realised i noticed if I shagged him therd be an argument next day. Odd. Is that cos he’d go what he wanted?

PrettyVase, this is BRILLIANT! Why isn’t this handed out in those rubbish Bounty packs when you get a baby?! Why didn’t I even think of such a clear cut way of sorting out the chores? No more nagging! Of course I’m nervous at actually doing it, given the yelling I got when I asked if he’d pick up his towels, but baby steps. Tee hee, I like that it’s stimulated such discussions. I like that prettyvase has it sussed. And zaphod you sound like an amazing mum, and woman. Not so sure I like hearing you have to start at potty training time. Missed the boat there!
Thanks for all the help. It’s kind of helping stir up what I learnt in counselling and I’m realising it was,’look after yourself’ but that included looking after yourself in ways like teaching me to realise it’s ok to have feelings, it’s ok to have time for yourself ...
Gosh it’s a long learning curve!

@Treatedlikeamaid - Glad that this discussion is shining at on your situation. I think there are lots of useful pointers about post-baby relationships that could be included in those post-baby bounty packs..that would be far more useful than the nappies etc.

You recommended counselling. And guess what my first response was to that suggestion? Yes, I think it's a great idea, but I'd never be able to justify the time or the cost to my husband (he'd have to do a shift of homeschooling in order for me to go, and would no doubt have a strong opinion about the cost). So I think I'll have to wait until kids go back to school...but counselling is definitely the way forward for me, and working out a way to go about it without having to JADE will be an interesting challenge (how ironic).

Hi forest. I know, counselling is insanely dear. We have a local charity that took me on for free for 6 weeks. Maybe there is one near you too. It’s Amazing what there is when you hunt about.. Or ask the doctor? I had to sneak off and say tescos had been super busy 😃 so I know where you’re coming from. I actually went to one counsellor and she offered to let me come for free for a while ( I must have been in a right state) of course I was too embarrassed to go back! So keep looking x
Sorry for the looooonnng post above. Felt on top of it then, and today not at all. Anxiety is back. Future bleak. It’s partly cos after a day realising how much he expects me to run after him ( I never knew!) he told me dinner was too elaborate ( sausage and chips and egg and chips) and I was wasting money because I’d made myself peas. Now, I’ve Just kind of lost all my mojo. Thanks lovely ladies and men.

You are wasting money because you made yourself peas??!!

What would he do, do you think, if you just threw your head back and roared with laughter at that kind of ridiculous comment?!

😀I’ll try that! I Commented and he’ll settle in to relentlessly argue with me mode even tho kids are there. So I have to Somehow back down.
But again, if I back down, dd is learning to back down and ds is learning to argue relentlessly ..I only just realised it’s whenever I have an opinion that’s different to him. He’ll argue/ attack For Ever. Will try a laugh!.
Sorry To keep posting. ( still being needy Barbie) Some of the stuff is so subtle I doubt myself. Still at least am noticing it now - and that it’s constant. Thank you!

Repeat his ridiculous phrase back at him op and laugh followed by shaking your head pityingly. Honestly he has serious issues if he can micromanage like that!

I honestly do not know how you have coped so far with such petty but damagingly toxic micro managing. Death by a thousand cuts as they say.

Because you were the economically more powerful than the pair of you he resents you and lauds his now more powerful status over you with daily, cutting humiliations like a master and slave dynamic which, as you can see, is now affecting how your DC relate to a woman.

He is their role model as are you so if nothing else you need to stop playing along with such toxic mindfuckery. Be brave! Stop!

You already said he is not a physical threat so he has managed to wield such toxic power in your household by insidious put downs that you even doubt yourself.

Oh op please do not doubt yourself, his ridiculousness is not worthy of a fight. Drown him out in your head or just put your hands over your ears or even more powerful, just close your eyes and start deep breathing whenever he starts. Do NOT do what he says. Carry on as normal. Do the opposite of what he says from now on. Please!

Report back here. You absolutely do need to make a stand or I am sorry to say your ds will go on to copy his father's behaviour to his partner and your dd might well find herself in the same position as this is all she knows.

Only you can break the cycle op. Please down tools and treat him like the irrational and deranged and unreasonable misery creator that he is.

Report back here what happens. Don't talk respond to him in any way whatsoever unless it's to laugh or close your eyes and deep breathe. He needs you to bite for him to argue so don't bite.

Record him. How are the journals going? When he starts off on one go off and write up the journal you want him to read rather than respond to him.

Write x is upset about peas. He thinks they over complicate the family meal. Actually, the government recommend that people eat more vegetables as they are a suitable source of fibre, protein, vitamins and minerals. So on balance we are going to continue having them, in fact with this government backed evidence we are going to increase our pea consumption from now on. X does not have to have what I make so he can serve himself whatever he likes from now on.

And so on...tell us how you get on. Remember, you now have a diversion technique so please rush off and put a journal entry in and make it so that your DC can read it and encourage them to write their own entries.

This will be your evidence and you can tell him ( always calmly from now on despite whatever provocation, please tell your DC this too) that you will seek outside help if needed to deal with his behaviour.

Actually I do think you need to have mental health training to be able to cope living with a man like that. Luckily there are online resources for you to look at.

Good luck op!

www.futurelearn.com/subjects/psychology-and-mental-health-courses

Treated I am a big user of the following tactics: - 1) eyebrow raise and say nothing at all.
2) act as if he said nothing, selective deafness.
3) laughter, then extend nonsense, "jamie olivier called to ask if he can have this in his new elaborate meals book."
4) u ok hun?

The thing about the peas is exactly the sort of thing my ex would have said when he felt he was losing his power over me. Superficially it's a stupid ridiculous comment - I mean, who the hell thinks peas are elaborate? - but it sticks in the back of your head. Next time you cook a meal you think 'peas, or not peas? I like peas, But he'll pick on them again. Ah, I just won't bother...' It makes you modify your behaviour. It makes you think twice about things people in a normal relationship wouldn't even consider.

He's controlling you again. Just over a tiny thing, but he knows that if he can 'get you' over the peas, his control isn't really slipping. He's still 'got' you.

Oh and if he persists criticising you then you can use the old shutdown classic "When you do it you can do it your way."

You don't have to argue or backdown. He can howl into the wind and you can react like he were a tantruming toddler, i.e. pointed ignore or at most "I am not talking to you about this now."

You could practice stating a different opinion. On purpose. In your own time. As deliberate training of yourself to then neuter his nonsense and training of him to expect it.

Making a bit of a game of it on your terms can help you get over your terror of him disagreeing and browbeating into submission. The game of "rise above it"

It is bloody wearing though.

Op, post some more of his ludicrous mindfuckery so we can give you some fun new tactics!

In fact I would be goading him from now on in order to try out the new techniques!!

OMG, I can so relate to the 'pea' incident. In fact, I had a similar pea-related issue just yesterday.

Was serving up some pie husband had made (he's a great cook) and decided to cook some peas to go with it. This in itself was an incredibly taxing decision, believe it or not.

Would I be flamed to chosing to serve an extra vegetable with the meal, or flamed for chosing peas over some other vegetable? But if I didn't cook vegetables, I could equally well be accused of not taking any initiative/not thinking/ leaving all the cooking to him/treating him like a restaurant slave etc.

Anyway, as it was the pea decision was approved, and (miracle of miracles) I even seemed to cook them the right way, and the right quantity. But I was bound to get something wrong, wasn't I? Yep! I chose not to put butter on them, as requested (my reasoning was the butter could be added later by those who like buttery peas). Wrong! A long lecture ensues. During this, I grey-rock like crazy (I learned to do this years ago, it's the only way to cope with these seemingly bizarre arguements) but this in itself is now a problem. He's cottoned on to my grey-rock answers, and now I'm accused of being passive-aggressive.

In fact, he would say that my passive-aggressiveness is the biggest problem in our relationship.

And so on. This is my life! Bizarre arguements over seemingly mundane things that most people wouldn't even notice. (For balance, I should add that there are plenty of good bits too).

In that case 2 peas are called for, one with and one without.

Honestly, what irrational rubbish you have to put up with

Medals for treated, forest and every other women who is daily negotiating such crazy-making nonsense and control. Gold medals for the daily strength and fortitude that you show. I am not joking. Just think how resilient you must be to get up day-in-day-out and deal with that sh*t and also do everything else you need to do.

Now just imagine if that strength and fortitude went towards getting out and on with your own lives.

I had an excellent counsellor from Women’s Aid. They do outreach and probably in a community building near you (in normal times; I am not sure of the arrangements now). The WA branch who supported me also supported women who for whatever reason did not want to or were not able to leave. Important thing is support whatever you decide to do.

It was - among many things - the control of food and mealtimes which seemed most obvious to me. But that kind of micro-control does not happen in isolation, it is part of a pattern, and it pervades every aspect of your life. The comment about your H earning therefore deserving sex, treated, really suggests that he thinks he can buy sex, that you should serve his sexual needs because he earns money, and really, that would be prostitution on your part if that was how the relationship went. Whereas you contribute by looking after the DC and household so that he can go out to work and earn the money, so that he does not need to pay a housekeeper and because that is how marriage works - both parties contribute in different ways.

But you know that, and he knows that. The comment is intended to demean you and worse than that, it removes free consent because bargaining is introduced: ‘I pay, you have sex with me’.

So, so exhausting and suffocating. Imagine that energy going on the things that you want to do.

Something has been happening with DC and their dad in lockdown which has been quite insidious and creating an expectation of how DC would behave (not going into details) - and it was so, so obvious to me (once I figured it out) that it worked because DC wanted their dad’s approval and it was taking over their time. And I realised I had to help give them the strength and means to say no, that is not okay for me: I will do x but not y and I will do it as it suits me. And that this was nothing to feel bad about.

@Treatedlikeamaid, @Forest1000, what is it with controlling assholes and peas?! Whenever I cooked peas, my stbxh would complain that either I had done too many or too few. I completely understand the anguish that comes with overthinking every.fucking.little.thing. to please an abuser and avoid their criticism. It is so freeing to go to the supermarket these days and, if they don't have my usual loaf of bread etc., to pick up any replacement I see fit instead of agonising for 3 hours in the bakery aisle as to whether I have made the 'right' choice. @Treatedlikeamaid, until you are able to leave, it may be worth accepting that you will never get anything right in his eyes and put yourself in a pretend bubble, picturing anything that comes out of his mouth just bouncing off the bubble and falling to the ground.