20 years in it’s dawned on me...

[Treatedlikeamaid]

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

I should add that Women’s Aid were a very good source of support to me. It is easy to think that the abused woman is someone else and not you, or the abuse is not bad enough, or many other things, but actually any one of us can end up in need of support for domestic abuse. So my other piece of advice is to read out for professional support as well when it is safe to do so

*reach out

Sorry typing quickly

Never ever assert yourself verbally with someone who intimidates you physically, no matter how much you are provoked into doing so.

I agree with this and would take it further based on my life experience.

Never assert yourself verbally with someone who is unreasonable or who has ulterior motives. Use actions not words. Only speak about it, if at all, after the action is done, never before.

Do not JADE. Actively plan to not JADE. When you take action, your behaviour will be different if you know you have no bloody intention of justifying, arguing, defending or explaining. A whole set of JADE-based scenario planning and conversation rehearsing vanishes from your action planning. Liberating!

Concern yourself only with what damaging actions (not words) the unreasonable person might take afterwards and plan protections for yourself, especially if the person is like your DH and has an ulterior motive to keep you down.

@TorkTorkBam Can you elaborate more, and give an example of this in action?

OP are you married to my XH. If it wasn’t that you’d been with him for 20 years I’d think you are. He was just the bloody same. Wouldn’t let me do anything, would belittle me if I showed an interest in anything, would build me up with an idea then take great pleasure in knocking me down.

If I argued with him he’d give me the silent treatment, if I got annoyed with him he’d get aggressive and violent, if I ignored him and did it anyway he’d give me the silent treatment then get aggressive and violent if his stropping didn’t work.

He was absolutely awful, but like you I shrank down to nothing. I wouldn’t say or do anything I thought would set him off because I was scared of his reaction. I just agreed with him, did what he wanted then apologised when I inevitably got it wrong.

The thing that finally snapped me out of it, like your business, was going to college to do a degree. When I started going to college it was like a new world opened up. I suddenly had friends, something he hadn’t let me do. I was encouraged and complimented and suddenly believed I was capable of doing something well.

Oh my god, the tantruming was hideous. He’d ignore me, pick fights over nothing, never asked me what I was doing or how my day was. Whatever I was studying was stupid and a waste of time, I was doing it all wrong, it was all a waste of time etc.

I had enough in the end and told him I was leaving. There were other reasons, him being an alcoholic being another big one, but ultimately it was because I couldn’t stand the sight of him. When he found out his occasional bouts of violence got more frequent. He pushed me, slammed the door on my hand, bodily threw me out of the house, and he even threatened me with a kitchen knife, all in front of our 5 year old child.

I was never so glad as the day I left that house for the last time.

It’s taken me years to get over all the damage he did to me. He dragged the divorce out for years and nearly financially crippled me. In the end I caught him out because he hadn’t disclosed a pension policy on his court papers and I forced him to hand over the money he’d drawn down. He still tries to cause me trouble occasionally. One time he told the council I had someone living with me and I was fiddling benefits. I wasn’t, and thankfully they dismissed it without any further investigation, but he’s a vile vindictive bastard, and even now he can’t stand the thought that I might be a bigger person than him.

Me and DS are moving back to my home town next month and we’re not telling him. SS said he wasn’t to see DS alone due to his drinking and that he could only have supervised access. he didn’t bother with organising it and he hasn’t seen DS for over 2 years. He doesn’t even call DS, no birthday or christmas cards, no nothing.

Me and DS however are thriving and can’t wait for our new life back near my family.

You really can get out if you want it enough. It’s hard and it’ll take time to recover but there is a good life without him. Just be careful in the mean time because once he feels that control slip he’ll get desperate, and desperate abusers are very dangerous. Please seek all the help and support you can get, and don’t be afraid to call 999 if he starts. If you can’t speak press 55 and they will come to you.

Good luck OP. I’m sending you some strength because I know how hard it is to escape the clutches of men like this but if I can do it then so can you.

Example?

Let's say you plan to have a socially distanced walk with a friend for an hour. With a normal partner you would talk about this openly in advance. It would be nice. Not with Mr Blocker you don't.

On the day you just go out. You stick your head round the door to the kids (assuming old enough) and say "I'm off to meet Brenda for a walk, see you in an hour." Then you leave.

You don't spend days dropping into conversation that Brenda has been asking to see you, that Brenda is lonely that you have been thinking about taking more exercise, no mentioning that oh look aren't the children just fine playing Xbox or doing schoolwork unsupervised, no did you see the NHS wants us to get more vitamin D. Blah, blah, blah, no. That would all be preparation to JADE. You might plan the time of the walk around him likely to be in a good mood. You might plan to do something extra sweet to try to appease before or after if you are preparing to JADE. You might take a photo and switch on an exercise tacker to prove you were with Brenda, where you were and how long it took. Nope. Don't do it.

When you get back from the walk, if he hasn't noticed you don't mention it at all. None of the normal chit chat you would have with a partner because this is a dementor and it will result in nothing good. If it comes up (angrily or not) you are neutral, boring, raise eyebrows and say very little. Definitely don't get drawn into their demands for you to JADE.

"I went for a walk with Brenda"
(NOT "I just went for a quick walk with Brenda, she's so depressed and I wanted to help and I didn't want to bother you while working")
"Oh dear." (in response to any claims of disaster, terror, etc).
"I am sure you will get over it" (in response to more attacks on the basis of say claimed extreme anxiety or exploding toasters causing deep distress or whatever).
"Right, now you are being ridiculous and offensive. I am not talking to you about this any more." (When he accuses you of shagging your fancy man not walking with Brenda, of him nearly calling the police, of him almost definitely nearly having a cardiac arrest just when you happened to be out, how the children were self-harming because you weren't there, etc).
"I'll think about it." If he demands you tell him eighteen days in advance next time and take him or whatever, asks if you are going to do it again, etc.

Have a little list of permitted statements for yourself in advance. Repeat them many times if you have to. Commit to nothing. At most agree to think about something.

Keep the option to say "I went for a walk with Brenda. You are being ridiculous. I'm not going to talk to you about it any more." And walk out of the room or turn away.

Totally ignore any stupid PA digs over the next few days.

Be boring in the face of the fury at you biting through the leash. If you are feeling stressed like you might crack and start arguing or justifying then use the "ridiculous phrase" and physically remove yourself to avoid cracking.

Have a calming or strengthening routine you can do in the bathroom or walking round the block or wherever you can get 5 mins peace to regroup and centre yourself.

whatisthisfuckery what an inspirational story - you are a true hero and you have given your DS the most precious gift - a childhood free from an abusive, alcoholic home. Good luck with your move - doing a happy dance for you.

I think all this talk of changing your behaviour is distraction if you're thinking of leaving him. An alternative approach is to respond however comes naturally while making your plans. It's much easier to practise defending your boundaries when you're away from the person who is used to systematically attacking them.

Don't feel you need to prove anything to him. It's ok to imagine these strong responses but not carry them through. He'll just try out new ways to bring you down anyway.

So nice to hear from you all! Ha! Fizz and chips, I’m totally with you. I wish I’d known about mumsnet And red flags 20 years ago. How cool that this thread is helping you too - There’s a lot of good advice on it .Go you! Rather think us ladies go through a lot of crap!
Pretty vase and summer, don’t worry, he would never do anything physical.its more passive aggressive nonsense. I’m becoming aware of the tactics, so that helps - and now I realise why I was so exhausted, which is huge! It means I’ve let myself off the hook - I’m not lazy and useless as I believed.
I’m not responding- good advice - I’ve been calmly saying, ‘I don’t want to row’ and after a few more attempts he changes tack to be nice.
I will do as you suggest though and keep 2 journals, once did this with a snoopy housemate who read nice things about her, and was nice from then on!
I like the idea of writing down what works. As it’s so easy to forget.
I’m gently saying,’if you don’t like your coffee, it’s best you make it ‘ stuff like that, which he can’t row with. Small behaviour s while I check out the reaction, but yes, empowering!
Need to do this as ds ( 12) is beginning to be daft. He left his toast mournfully behind as I didn’t get him a knife, apparantly. Trouble is, it’s easier to get cross with ds, and I know it’s emotions that should be directed at his dad. So I took a breath and said something like, ‘there’s plenty of knives, you help yourself to whatever you need, and oh, ok, if you don’t want it that’s fine’. Hope this was right?

I’m detaching, as you suggest, and singing songs in my head ( that you tube one is jolly ) while he talks. And doing the bare minimum housework, and concentrating on my business, and the children. Concentrating on my business( hobby!) is what helps, it gives me a sense of possibility and From the encouragement from my very very few followers, I am tentatively feeling more confident ( when not overwhelmed wit fear!).
I now somehow believe I can leave, when before I couldn’t understand what was going on or why I felt so grey and miserable.
Summer, thank you. I hear what you are saying. I think he would stop short of that, as he knows it’s wrong. But your comment about total control has made me wonder..he is now mr enthusiasm re my business, now I may be making teeny inroads. It’s a total reversal to the moods and put downs from before. Very odd.
Am reading the book ,’how the abuser gets inside her head(?) that Just trying suggested. It’s very good, though disturbing. For years I would switch off when these resources mention violence - Maybe we should write a book about blokes that don’t seem abusive at all, because as someone says earlier ( can’t look it up or I’ll lose this!) it’s is covert. And therefore blooming hard to realise until you’ve been ground down and confused.

Oh no another long post! Sorry! Cos I was all cozy in bed 😃

Didn’t see this last page when I posted that reply, doh! Thanks so much! Will have a read later, got to be a mum now ( we are getting later at getting up. Oops)

All sounds very positive! Well done everyone! Btw I have been married for over 20 years and completely do my own thing within the family home.

My dh wanted me to work so I installed a compact washing machine upstairs in the family bathroom, announced everyone needed to do their own laundry from now on ( DC at school so capable of switching on and hanging out etc ) to free up my time, also had a family meeting with all the jobs that needed doing on a daily, weekly and monthly basis: got everyone to initial which jobs they wanted to do ( dh put his initials on to lots as didn't want to be shown up ) and this was 5 years ago. Works an absolute dream because they also take turns making family meals so I can go out and come back to a lovely meal and all the household chores are shared so no built up resentment.

If your DC are aged 8+ a family meeting around the kitchen table to organise this will work well. If you can use the family holiday as a reward for their efforts or treats, pocket money so much the better.

This helps everyone realise how much needs to be done in the household so it doesn't appear like invisible work any more and I found it works particularly well as dh doesn't get a get out clause and helping out gives him approval in the eyes of the DC!

The other thing I did which works is get into the habit of praising any good deed openly " daddy was really helpful when... Wasn't he? " Etc to encourage repeat behaviour so taking the onus off helping me but it was all about helping the DC/ the family.

The other thing which had miraculously good effect was to have a family meeting and give everyone a piece of paper with each family member's name on it.

A. Ask each person to write down what they admired or liked about that person.

B. Ask what they would like to change in that person

C. Write down what you can do to help them change

It is an eye opener. No one needs to share what others have written unless they want to share it and if more than one person has said the same thing thing about the person then they need to make efforts to change.

Keeping a sense of humour and being really nice is far far more effective in getting what you want than accusations and anger so please try it

Good for you OP, you sound lighter.
He is responding to your subtlety in you passive responses.

Well done you.
Focus on your business...your passage to freedom

Need to do this as ds ( 12) is beginning to be daft. He left his toast mournfully behind as I didn’t get him a knife, apparantly.

Ha! All children try this on from time to time. I noticed it after you mentioned it. We don't engage in the alleged facts of no knife. Our most common response is a withering look and no words, or the emotionless "Oh dear, whatever will you do" / "I'm sure you will think if something."

Take this approach and before long the siblings will take care of it for you (when you've shown you won't take their minor self made problems onto your shoulders).

Siblings are viscious for "Oh no, Bobby's arms have fallen off. Does that mean I get all the X-box time."
"Ha ha Sally can't even remember where the knives are she's dumber than the dog."
And of course the best result which is sibling rivalry making the others spontaneously decide to be super super good in comparison, maybe by making you a cup of tea and bring you a slice of toast with a knife while suggesting you have a sit down.

My DC learned from their dad that they didn't have to do housework. That if they just obfuscated, argued, bitched about each other 'not doing aaaannnyyyythiiiinnngg' that I would do it because I couldn't stand the mess.

It was exactly how he behaved. Argue black is white and you can't be made to pick up that dish you dropped because the person arguing with you is the only one who cares. Kids used to argue themselves into exhaustion, tantrum, scream, storm out of the house...and their rooms still weren't tidied, so i'd have to do it.

Once he left they got a lot better, because they weren't having an adult model to them how you get a woman to do all the household chores for you. They weren't perfect (and the arguments were legendary!), but they all now have their own houses which are, mostly immaculate!

@Prettyvase said.
We had similar family meeting and chore chart done.
DC would sometimes message me saying they couldn’t cook on their designated night as going out.
I would then suggest swapping nights with someone or putting on a slow cooker.

I'm always interested Weenurse in how people get these rotas to work!

I tried. I really did. But it would go like this: Child A cooking tonight but going out. Nobody volunteers to take Child A's slot, I cook. Next night, Child B's night, but Child B refuses to cook because 'Child A didn't do their turn'. Child C offers to cook to keep the peace. Third night is Child C's turn but Child C cooked on Child B's night and doesn't want to do so again. Children A and B won't do it 'because it's not our turn! It's Child C's night'. So I point out that Child A didn't cook, Child B didn't cook and Child C took B's turn so cooked last night.

Everyone shrugs and walks off. I end up cooking.

Thankfully they've all grown up now and are perfectly nice people, but OMG the arguing when we tried to keep to a rota! I tried putting my foot down hard (cue lots of sighing, sulking, making their own sandwiches and refusing to cook, everyone deciding to go out, etc etc), redrawing the rota (on an hourly basis...) or giving them other tasks instead of cooking (where the behaviour would just be repeated only with hoovering/dusting/washing up instead of cooking).

How do people with recalcitrant children get the rota thing to work?

No rotas. They never work imo unless everyone is fully onboard with the process.

Each person has a set of jobs that are theirs exclusively. Nobody else touches that job. If the person can't do it for some reason it is their responsibility to negotiate a stand in (who usually charges a high price). It's the only way I have seen work.

You have to have ovaries of steel to not step in to do it, or remind them to do it, even as the unmopped kitchen floor is knee deep in grease. Let others do the "nagging". You must drop the mental load and deal with the potential lower standard of living. That standard of living is then the family negotiated part. Is everybody pissed off with the state of the downstairs toilet? Well they can gang up on Bob to make him do it. Is everyone OK with the living room cushions being flat but you hate it? Either you take the plumping job yourself or you leave them flat.

Golly sounds like a genetic thing then?!

Mine get to choose what to make, shop what they want and we are eating loads of Japanese, Italian and Vegan at the moment

They love all the praise they get so once one has made the effort ( we are all foodies ) one of the others will wash up and another put away.

Once they are in the kind and thoughtful mindset, rotas are no longer needed. I started this with my family when we decided to save our ££ instead of replacing our cleaner ( and the DC were starting to take her for granted so leaving things out).

All the ££ we saved went on a skiing holiday so that is why they were initially motivated to do all the chores in the house ( they were primary ages at the time, I have 5 DC).

I read in a Montessori book that if you get your DC to help out at the same age as they were potty training and cleaning their teeth then it becomes second nature, almost instinctual to clean and tidy up after themselves, so not genetics, just conditioning

I too had five DC, prettyvase which was why the arguments used to escalate to astronomical proportions.

I can only assume that it's to do with personality. My five, whilst the best of friends now, could argue with every single one of their brothers and sisters and would argue each other to a standstill. Last man standing would do whatever the job was (but LMS was always youngest child who ended up doing everyone else's jobs to stop the arguments, which wasn't fair).

They honestly all are lovely people now! And their houses are immaculate. But, my god, I learned my lesson about rotas back then...

@TorkTorkBam Thanks for that example of non-JADE-ing. I've realised that I'm a world class JADEr....but what exactly is going on when we JADE and why should it be avoided?

@Zaphodsotherhead you have done a fantastic job!

Crackling I think three things in answer to your question:

1. If you are constantly justifying, arguing, defending and explaining what you are doing, this suggests what you are doing is not being accepted - hence, what you are doing is being dismissed, devalued or disallowed in some way - otherwise you would just get on with it, not JADE. JADE is exhausting after a time and takes up a lot of mental energy which would be better used just getting on with whatever it was.

1. Defending something makes you feel guilty, whether you should be or not. JADE is not the give and take of normal conversation - it is one person putting the other in the position where they have to JADE.

1. This leads to monopoly of perception - the person having to JADE starts to doubt their own judgement and begins to see everything through the abuser’s point of view - and a greater power being given to the abuser than they deserve - why should you have to JADE? You just have normal conversation when you want to.

Also, being someone who likes talking and explaining and giving lots of detail naturally in conversation is the not the same as having to JADE in an unequal relationship though.

@CracklingUp When you JADE you are in a master-servant mode. You, the servant, are seeking permission, denial, punishment, praise or forgiveness from the master.

In a relationship of equals you wouldn't have a JADE conversation.

Obviously we all explain our thinking or our decision making to others sometimes. Most of us justify, argue, defend and explain in our own minds with our own conscience when we are grappling with a decision.

The problem comes when the JADE is relative to another person not your own value system and is the norm.

A person who consistently places themselves in the servant role will constantly be preparing to JADE. Their master's value system rules their life, not their own.

They will shudder at the thought of going against the master's wishes. They wouldn't do something the master dislikes then when challenged give a Gallic shrug and refuse to engage. The master will happily do that to them.

If you decide to consciously stop yourself from doing it you may rapidly realise how much mental energy you consume keeping the master happy vs your own values. You might notice you have completely lost sight of who you are and what you want.