Have you had an affair and how did you get over AP

[bloomingdalelovely]

Just that really - looking for input/comments from people who have been in this position.

I always had one big rule which was never to get into any kind of relationship with a married man.

This man was Irish, swore on his mother's life that after he and his wife were divorced and there was no further contact. Six months later by which time I had fallen in love with him and thought he was my forever person, I discovered he had a wife and six children back in Ireland and he was very much still married, oh and his mother was dead.

I kicked him out of my house and collapsed in a heap. Eventually picked myself up and for a while hated myself for what I had unknowingly done to his wife and children. That feeling lasted a long time. I grieved for him as if he were dead. You just have to put one foot in front of the other until the pain subsides.

@BackseatCookers

I wouldn’t say I’m exactly comfortable with any of it - all of it is traumatic to a greater or lesser extent.

I just can’t agree with the point of view that this choice not to cheat is in any way the end of the story. It’s been said time and again on this thread - cheating is a choice. Yes, it absolutely is, but the feelings aren’t. Why is the mental health of all the people involved so immaterial?

Let’s say there’s a couple for which breakup is structurally impossible for financial or cultural reasons or both. The person who has fallen for someone else does the “right” thing and chooses not to cheat. Is that really so much better for the unknowing spouse, long term? Seems to me like all involved will become increasingly miserable and stressed. But apparently that’s a black and white choice - if you can’t leave, you must stay, because cheating is always the very worst thing you can do.

Let’s say there’s a couple for which breakup is structurally impossible for financial or cultural reasons or both.

You keep using this an example, but what about the many many couples where breaking up may be a hit financially but not to the extent they'd be ruined?

What about couples where breaking up has no 'cultural' significance?

Choosing to cheat rather than tell your significant other and leave is utterly selfish in most cases and the truth is a huge number of people do this every day.

And in many cases it is just shitty selfish behaviour they do because they like the benefits of having a stable family life but also want the excitement of a fantasy life that involves secret trysts, weekends away and no 'real life' day to day issues like money or childcare.

Also I literally said in my last post that it isn't black and white.

Like I say, each to their own but don't kid yourself that the majority of people who cheat on their partner whether once or with an affair do so because they want to and they think they can get away with it. And wanting to is more important than the mental health of the people they're cheating on.

What I find very odd is that people think that because they are in a relationship with someone or married to them that they somehow ‘own’ them forever I don't think anyone has said that? If you want to leave then fine, people cope with being left and many have amicable break ups. There is no need to treat someone like a piece of shit and continuously lie and put their health at risk. Cheating is cowardly and pathetic. If you're unhappy just bloody leave. People aren't saying they wished their partners had stayed with them forever. They're saying they wished they weren't gaslighted and treated like a cunt.

There are no couples for which there is no cultural significance, it’s just varying extents.

People who are able to leave with few financial or social / cultural consequences are very privileged, and this should be acknowledged.

You keep saying you don’t think it’s black and white, but if I may, what you appear to be arguing are quite fixed and immutable positions.

We agreed upthread that the whole notion of lifelong monogamy was at best questionable, but you seem unwilling to interrogate some of your other core assumptions:

• that cheating is the worst thing someone can do in a relationship, and anything short of cheating is therefore a better option. I can’t agree with this, because there’s no thought given to what happens if the choice to cheat is not made. What then happens to that relationship? What happens to the mental health of the people involved?

• that cheaters don’t care about hurting others. They might not do the most optimal, fair or reasonable thing in the circumstances, but I don’t believe that most cheaters are indifferent to the feelings of their partners.

If you can’t question either of those assumptions, this debate will just go round and round.

Yes, cheating is a choice. If someone chooses not to do it, then what? It’s better for everyone just to live miserably til they die? You have to at least acknowledge that the choice isn’t cheat and hurt your partner or don’t cheat and everything goes back to the way it was. It’s actually more likely to be a choice between two shitty outcomes.

I don’t agree with cheating, but I’m not going to pretend that it’s a simple choice. That’s just not the reality.

Why is the only other option than cheating be to ‘live miserably and die’. Just leave the relationship.

Choosing to cheat rather than tell your significant other and leave is utterly selfish in most cases and the truth is a huge number of people do this every day.

What's the timeframe for when you're supposed to know the potential AP enough to leave your whole life for them, but before it constitutes cheating?

You see on the relationship board a lot the idea that if you want to be with someone else you should leave your marriage. But how do you know you want to be with them till you explore that?

I don't buy for one second that every affair happens because a marraige was missing something or broken or becuase the person is a serial cheater.

Sometimes you just meet someone and have feelings for them. Are you supposed to end your entire (otherwise happy marriage) without exploring if those feelings are real? And I'm not talking about having sex, but emotional affairs and all the rest of it. When are you supposed to know enough to blow up your world and that of your spouse?

I think you’ve unfairly put words in my mouth as I haven’t made those points at all. To be clear, re your two points:

that cheating is the worst thing someone can do in a relationship, and anything short of cheating is therefore a better option.

I absolutely don't think that and I haven't said that. Abuse is worse than cheating, repeatedly lying in general is terrible, stealing money is awful etc. Many things are worse than cheating, loads and loads and loads. But we have been discussing cheating not all the other things one can do to someone else that are horrible.

that cheaters don’t care about hurting others. They might not do the most optimal, fair or reasonable thing in the circumstances, but I don’t believe that most cheaters are indifferent to the feelings of their partners.

I don't believe they're indifferent either, I just believe they don't care enough about their partners feelings for it to stop them doing something that will damage their partners mental health. Again not black and white at all - it’s not that cheaters don’t give a shit about their partners, that would be a black and white statement. It’s that they don’t care enough for it to stop them going through with it.

You have to at least acknowledge that the choice isn’t cheat and hurt your partner or don’t cheat and everything goes back to the way it was.

Again, I agree and do acknowledge that. It’s kind of my point - there’s a third and fourth option. Option 3 - work on the relationship. Option 4 - end the relationship. Option 4 is I believe better the majority of the time.

When talking about the mental health of those involved I don’t accept that the mental health of the cheater takes priority over that of the cheated on. And I want to make it clear that neither does the mental health of the cheated one take priority over the cheater.

But if one party is making a decision to do something that damages their partners mental health rather than talking it through or leaving then the need to be accountable for that. The partner who is in the dark is not being given the choice to leave / meet someone else. If someone told me they had met someone else and we’re leaving I’d be sad but I wouldn’t want to be with them because I would want to be in a happy relationship and assuming they were a good person and I loved them I would want them to be happy too. If they lied and gaslighted and cheated then I would absolutely think so much less of them. I think that’s fair - you don’t and that’s ok. As I say, each to their own.

@affor surely you shouldn't get married if you're going to actively seek to meet others though? If you feel the need to see if it's going to work with others then you're really not cut out for marriage. Which is fine....but don't get married then 🤷‍♀️.

@AndSheSteppedOnTheBall you decided that life long monogamy was unnatural....and suggested that only a few 'can be happy with it'. I think that's just a projection of your own feelings, maybe it didn't work for you. It doesn't speak for others. I believe it can be natural to have one partner for life for some people and it's not for others. Both is fine.

@affor if I 'explored' everyone I was attracted to, I wouldn't have been married very long.

@AndSheSteppedOnTheBall
Let’s say there’s a couple for which breakup is structurally impossible for financial or cultural reasons or both. The person who has fallen for someone else does the “right” thing and chooses not to cheat. Is that really so much better for the unknowing spouse, long term? Seems to me like all involved will become increasingly miserable and stressed. But apparently that’s a black and white choice - if you can’t leave, you must stay, because cheating is always the very worst thing you can do.

You're presenting a false dilemma here - you are saying there are only 2 choices in this situation.

ahh@BackseatCookers , I see you have already uncovered this faulty logic in more detail!

True, you haven’t explicitly said those things so I’ll happily take them back. It is however, the impression I’ve been getting, rightly or wrongly.

Absolutely there are loads of things worse than cheating, but the whole crux of this debate, and the evidence of people’s experiences in this thread, is that the situation is almost never just about cheating. I don’t think there’s any point in pretending for the sake of debate that this is ever a simple situation. All that does is give people easy, comfortable positions to take without having to consider the complications.

Yeah, in an ideal world, someone falls out of love with their partner or falls in love with someone else, is honest with all involved and everyone finds a way to amicably make it work without anyone suffering too much financially or socially. Whether that involves leaving, polyamory or some other arrangement.

The reality is that that situation is incredibly rare so holding it up as the blueprint is completely pointless. As is pretending that the reality for most people is not way, way more complicated and traumatic.

I wasn’t prioritising the mental health of the cheater - they’re not even a cheater in my scenario. This is what I mean about the subtext of your posts. You seem to lean towards the partner who’s contemplating cheating being a Bad Person who deserves no sympathy or understanding. Even if they do the thing you think they should by choosing not to cheat. Merely for thinking about cheating their mental health is then less important than the supposedly-innocent others. In any case, I was talking about the mental health of ALL involved - partners, kids. An unhappy marriage isn’t good for anyone.

I agree with your last paragraph, I’ve always been clear that that is the ideal situation. You just don’t seem to be able to, or willing to, contemplate that there’s anything more complicated or difficult than that for people.

You’ve still not explained what happens to people who choose not to cheat and therefore should not be a Bad Person by your own standards. What happens to those marriages, if they can’t be worked upon with therapy or similar (and again that is something only some people are privileged to be able to afford) and people can’t leave?

I don’t have an answer for this, by the way. It would require massive cultural change and restructuring of society. I’m just saying I understand, even if I don’t condone, some behaviours.

@Mlouise183 Where did I say anything about exploring everyone you're attracted to or actively seeking to meet other people?

@suggestionsplease1

No, I was pointing out that it is a false dilemma, despite it being the one proposed by several people in this thread.

What’s your idea of the ideal outcome in that scenario? No-one else has been able to get beyond “don’t cheat”.

@MLouise183

you decided that life long monogamy was unnatural....and suggested that only a few 'can be happy with it'. I think that's just a projection of your own feelings, maybe it didn't work for you. It doesn't speak for others. I believe it can be natural to have one partner for life for some people and it's not for others. Both is fine.

This is literally the exact same thing I said. I said, given the weight of evidence, that lifelong monogamy might not be natural, thought it totally works for some people.

I don’t know yet which category I’ll fall into, I’ll update the thread in ten years.

@affor you asked what the time frame for deciding if your feelings are strong enough to leave your marriage for your AP? What I'm trying to say is if you follow up on attractions/feelings then off course you might end up falling in love with someone else. The fact that you have given your time to someone else means you should probably end your marriage anyway.

Yeah, in an ideal world, someone falls out of love with their partner or falls in love with someone else, is honest with all involved and everyone finds a way to amicably make it work without anyone suffering too much financially or socially. Whether that involves leaving, polyamory or some other arrangement.

The reality is that that situation is incredibly rare so holding it up as the blueprint is completely pointless. As is pretending that the reality for most people is not way, way more complicated and traumatic.

Why should it be rare for people to be honest with each other? And even if was rare, why should it not be something to be aspired to? Just because something is difficult or painful doesn't mean that it's something that can just be written off as unrealistic.

You seem to be conflating things that can not be conflated... "honest with all involved and amicably work things out' - no - honesty doesn't necessarily entail amicable, honesty might mean pain and difficulties remaining amicable - but it is still the far more respectful approach, and the one least likely to be harmful to the other person overall.

What’s your idea of the ideal outcome in that scenario? No-one else has been able to get beyond “don’t cheat”.

You asked this. You also said this:

Yeah, in an ideal world, someone falls out of love with their partner or falls in love with someone else, is honest with all involved and everyone finds a way to amicably make it work without anyone suffering too much financially or socially.

You asked what would happen in an ideal world and you agree with other people's assessment based on the above.

You're putting words in my mouth continually. I've not said it's not a complex issue, I've said it's not black and white and that where abuse is involved especially it's different.

I've agreed with you that cheating isn't the worst thing someone can do, I've agreed with you that the mental health of all involved should be considered.

I've been measured and directly addressed your points but I feel you're reading subtext based on your defensiveness about this.

I hope you, and as many people as possible, can find happiness without hurting others. That's in an 'ideal world' not the real world. You asked what would happen in an ideal world.

In reality people are fallible and cheating instead of leaving doesn't make someone a terrible human being. Again, I haven't said that. It's shitty behaviour though and I think often it's a case of people who won't leave not people who can't leave.

It's hard to have a debate where I directly answer challenges with honesty, your most frequent response is essentially 'yes you may have said that, but your subtext is xyz' when there isn't a subtext and I've actually agreed with you on many points. You continually insisting there is a subtext / hidden meaning of some sort in everything I say means I can't make any points without you saying that in some way I don't mean them. Which makes the debate a bit pointless really. So I think it's best I leave it there.

This is the most depressing thread I've read for years 😭.

I have to say, being told consistently that I don't mean what I say (when I do ) and having someone continue to argue points I've already clearly said I agree with is essentially a stranger trying to gaslight me.

Luckily I'm not emotionally invested but it's an interesting display of having your feelings dictated to you incorrectly! Off to enjoy the rest of my day now

I think cheating is a form of abuse. It's definitely up there with one of the worst things someone you trust can do to you. I'm beginning to wonder if those trying to justify cheating have ever actually been on the receiving end or if they're always the ones that cheat 🤔

Saying that someone should leave before cheating if they’ve fallen in love with someone else in order for the relationship to end more amicably is a fantasy.

If a woman posted here that her DH had told her he had fallen in love with someone else and wanted a divorce are people really saying that they would say to that OP that they were sorry to hear that but at least he hadn’t cheated? No of course they wouldn’t. They would tell her that he’s already sleeping with OW, and that both of them are cunts.

In life there will be people who leave as soon as they realise they have feelings for someone else. But no-one ever excepts that.

If a woman posted she’d fallen for someone else and wanted to leave her DH she would be told that her DH was best off without her and he deserved better.

So let’s not pretend that this idea of leaving a relationship as soon as you realise you have feelings for someone else would make that position any more amicable or acceptable because it categorically wouldn’t.

Which is why you end up with the situation where you either leave for someone else, or don’t leave and don’t pursue feelings for someone else.

That doesn’t make cheating any more acceptable,but society needs to be more accepting of the fact that relationships do end for all manner of reasons,and that includes leaving before you cheat but after you’ve fallen for someone else. And while society refuses to believe that many people will cheat before they actively end their marriages.

I'm finding a lot of the logic in this thread strange!!

eg..

That doesn’t make cheating any more acceptable,but society needs to be more accepting of the fact that relationships do end for all manner of reasons,and that includes leaving before you cheat but after you’ve fallen for someone else. And while society refuses to believe that many people will cheat before they actively end their marriages.

Are you saying the reason people cheat before they leave is because everyone expects them to have cheated anyway, so why the hell not?!

How about not worrying about what society thinks and just do the right thing yourself- ie. leaving before acting on feelings for someone else.

They're both hurtful situations, leaving for someone else before or after acting on feelings - no-one is denying that, I don't think, but surely it can objectively be agreed that leaving before acting is the more respectful and less hurtful course of action - and that's not dependent on what other people outside of the relationship happen to mistakenly believe.

In an ideal world people would leave before they cheat,, although let’s be honest, the party who was being left would be the one getting all the sympathy regardless.

And again, if someone didn’t cheat but had feelings for someone else nobody would believe they hadn’t cheated and it’s also possible, likely even that the cheated-on partner would tell the DC all about how he had cheated, how his new partner was the OW etc,it happens more regularly than not.

And the friends would be told he’d cheated.

If a woman posts here that her DH says he’s unhappy and wants to leave the immediate reaction is always that he has another woman

Society needs to be more open to the fact that many relationships just aren’t forever any more, and while that of course hurts, people aren’t necessarily wrong for wanting to leave.

If society can be more accepting of that then less people might be likely to cheat rather than feel they were trapped.

FWIW I didn’t have an affair because I wanted to mess him around. I had an affair as a result of the fact that he had broken down my self esteem to such an extent that it came as a surprise to me that anyone would think of me as worth being with. I had tried to leave several times before, and every time either he made things harder for me or those around me were completely unsupportive because staying with him was seen as essential.

We didn’t split because of my affair, the affair was a catalyst which gave me the out and even though the affair had ended made it easier for me to leave because there was an actual reason, even if that meant I was the wronged party.

As time has gone by my family and even some of his friends and family have acknowledged that they knew what was going on in the relationship And if I hadn’t slept with the other bloke but had become involved with him emotionally people would still have considered that cheating.

yet posters are saying that people should leave as soon as they develop feelings for someone else, yet people do have e.g. crushes which they don’t act on. Should they then leave their marriages over what is in reality a human behaviour?

@HoneyBeeHappy If a woman posted she’d fallen for someone else and wanted to leave her DH she would be told that her DH was best off without her and he deserved better.

This would be true though because she didn't live him anymore. Of course he deserves better.

If a woman posts here that her DH says he’s unhappy and wants to leave the immediate reaction is always that he has another woman

Never yet have I heard of a man leaving without another woman to go to. Genuinely.

Society needs to be more open to the fact that many relationships just aren’t forever any more, and while that of course hurts, people aren’t necessarily wrong for wanting to leave.

True. I'll hope you'll remember that when/if your next partner leaves you.

If society can be more accepting of that then less people might be likely to cheat rather than feel they

Maybe society will change if people become more honest and have more courage to leave.